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William

Did Jesus Condemn Homosexuality?

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People these days often claim that Jesus never condemned homosexuality. They are wrong.

 

1. Jesus explicitly defined marriage as between one man and one woman. Mark 10:6-9; Matthew 19:4-6.

 

2. Jesus condemned all sexual immorality and lust outside of marriage. Matthew 5:27-32; Mark 7:21; Luke 18:20.

 

3. A male-female marriage underpins the Fifth Commandment, "Honor your father and mother," which Jesus affirmed. Matthew 15:4, 19:19.

 

4. Jesus did not come to abolish the Law of Moses, but rather to fulfill it. The Law specifically condemns homosexual acts. Leviticus 18:22, 29; Matthew 5:17-18.

 

5. Throughout His public ministry, Jesus upheld the moral authority of the Law. Mark 2:27; Matthew 19:4-6, 22:31-32; Luke 18:20, etc.

 

6. Jesus nowhere specifically condemned bestiality, either. Should we conclude from this that men and women are free to commit such acts? Leviticus 18:23.

 

7. Jesus implicitly taught that the city of Sodom was destroyed because it failed to repent of its sins, including the sin of homosexuality. Matthew 10:14-15, 11:23-24; Luke 10:10-12; c.f. Genesis 19:1-29; Jude 1:7. When God the Father judged Sodom, God the Son was at His side in full agreement. John 1:1-2, 14, 5:19.

 

8. Jesus commissioned Paul as an apostle, who plainly taught the sinfulness of homosexual acts. Romans 1:24-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. It is arbitrary and incoherent to confess that Paul had apostolic authority from Jesus Christ, yet discard what Paul taught about homosexual sin.

 

9. Jesus Christ is fully God, and the entire Bible is the Word of God. The words written by Paul in Romans are as authoritative as the words spoken by Jesus in the Gospels. The apostle Peter affirmed that Paul's letters are "Scriptures." 2 Peter 3:15-16; cf. 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

 

10. The redemption of sinners secured by Jesus Christ is witnessed in the marriage between one man and one woman. Jesus (the Head) laid his life down for the church (the bride). The Scriptures teach that the relationship between Christ and His church corresponds to a husband and his wife. Ephesians 5:22-33; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Revelation 19:7-9.

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I think #2 covers it quite well, and it is a directive for everyone, not just homosexuals. I wish that there would be more talk of that in our mainstream Christian churches, especially since Christian divorce in the west is high.

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I think #2 covers it quite well, and it is a directive for everyone, not just homosexuals. I wish that there would be more talk of that in our mainstream Christian churches, especially since Christian divorce in the west is high.

 

Deidre makes a good point! It is so easy for Christians to self-righteously go on and on about homosexuality and gay marriage ...and all this while Christians are getting divorced in record numbers. Who was it that said, «Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye»...?

 

 

PermaFrost

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I think #2 covers it quite well, and it is a directive for everyone, not just homosexuals. I wish that there would be more talk of that in our mainstream Christian churches, especially since Christian divorce in the west is high.

 

Deidre makes a good point! It is so easy for Christians to self-righteously go on and on about homosexuality and gay marriage ...and all this while Christians are getting divorced in record numbers. Who was it that said, «Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye»...?

 

PermaFrost

 

I quoted you both Deidre, and PermaFrost, because I think generalizing all Christian churches sometimes overlooks an important issue. For example, why does anyone think that non-denominational churches average 9-19% higher in divorce rate than mainline Protestant denominations? As a Presbyterian I found it interesting that we have a 3% higher divorce rate than our Lutheran brethren which was the lowest. I was curious whether Presbyterian carried the liberal tendencies of the PCUSA? Anyhoot, from various statistics it was evident that Reformed Protestants generally have a 20-30% decrease in divorce rate than do other Christians.

 

I do not think it possible to accurately survey the divorce rate unless we were to also take into account whether a person was divorced previously before entering X church. Lastly, I am sure a spouse received a divorced status even when they were not the one that filed for divorce, but the status resulted from a spouse under a secular no fault divorce system.

 

God bless

William

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It is interesting, like 150 years ago, the divorce rate wasn't what it is now. Has mankind changed? I don't think so. The same temptations still exist, etc. But, I think what has seeped into our culture in the west, is feminism, and much of what feminism 'preaches' is against Biblical doctrine. When I left the faith for a time, I was into feminism...secularism/atheism sort of goes hand in hand with feminism...because feminism preaches to look out for one's self. It would seem that it wishes to have equality between the genders, but the current brand of feminism is all about women conquering men....competing with men...outdoing men...and not needing men. It is a message that is constantly in our faces every day, from politics, to news programs to movies to commercials. Men are becoming marginalized in the west, and less men and women are even marrying, anymore. So if I had to blame the slow degradation of morals and values surrounding marriage and family...I'd pin it on feminism, and how it has become quite pervasive throughout the western culture.

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It is interesting, like 150 years ago, the divorce rate wasn't what it is now. Has mankind changed? I don't think so. The same temptations still exist, etc. But, I think what has seeped into our culture in the west, is feminism, and much of what feminism 'preaches' is against Biblical doctrine. When I left the faith for a time, I was into feminism...secularism/atheism sort of goes hand in hand with feminism...because feminism preaches to look out for one's self. It would seem that it wishes to have equality between the genders, but the current brand of feminism is all about women conquering men....competing with men...outdoing men...and not needing men. It is a message that is constantly in our faces every day, from politics, to news programs to movies to commercials. Men are becoming marginalized in the west, and less men and women are even marrying, anymore. So if I had to blame the slow degradation of morals and values surrounding marriage and family...I'd pin it on feminism, and how it has become quite pervasive throughout the western culture.

 

Hi Deidre,

 

I agree with you that one of the contributing factors to degradation of America's family is feminism. It has also affected some denominations to the point of apostasy. If we were to follow the steps that have lead us to our current issues, we could see the blending of gender roles, and then gender identity itself. We can witness the over emphasis of superficial forms of identity, such as bearing more sexuality, clearly an after affect of abandoning gender roles.

 

No fault divorce has a large impact on our society too, and it has a way of causing equilibrium in the statistics. Denominations that hold to a loose definition of marriage are counted in statistics. For example, the PCUSA supports homosexual union as marriage. Some churches representing a certain denomination should not be included as denominational but rather apostate. Also, another point of interest, according to one statistic, "Conservative" churches contributed to high divorce rates. They did not say whether they too were non-denominational. I would like to know how many of those Conservative churches are actually influenced in doctrine by no fault divorce? I don't put a tremendous emphasis on these statistics, because, if I were to ask Person A that is a Christian whether they have been divorced, and they answer yes, then that would chalk one up for the Christian. If I were to ask were you a Christian at the time of divorce, and they said no, then that one chalk one up for the unbeliever. The fact that no fault divorce places both parties under the divorced stat is reason to believe there is going to be an equilibrium between believers and unbelievers.

 

God bless,

William

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I quoted you both Deidre, and PermaFrost, because I think generalizing all Christian churches sometimes overlooks an important issue.

 

The generalizing is fine with me. The divorce rate for people who identify as Christian is only slightly below 50% of marriages. (Most people who identify as Christian are only nominally so, but non-Christians do not recognize this distinction.)

 

From a Christian perspective, divorce should not even be recognized except in the case Jesus spoke of. Divorce should be on the same level as that other secular perversion that self-righteous Christians love to point a finger at: gay marriage.

 

 

 

 

PermaFrost

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The generalizing is fine with me.... people who identify as Christian is only slightly below 50% of marriages.

 

And not with me. For good reason, this is why many Presbyterians distinguish between themselves and this apostate church: I’m a Presbyterian Minister Who Doesn’t Believe in God

 

And those that identify Protestant, moreso Reformed have a 20-30% lower divorce rate than mainstream Christians. My question, initially, was for anyone that could answer why?

 

God bless,

William

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My question, initially, was for anyone that could answer why?

 

Both you and Deidre did a good job of answering why divorce is so high. Among born-again Christians, it should be almost zero... and I hope that it is.

 

 

PermaFrost

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I quoted you both Deidre, and PermaFrost, because I think generalizing all Christian churches sometimes overlooks an important issue. For example, why does anyone think that non-denominational churches average 9-19% higher in divorce rate than mainline Protestant denominations? As a Presbyterian I found it interesting that we have a 3% higher divorce rate than our Lutheran brethren which was the lowest. I was curious whether Presbyterian carried the liberal tendencies of the PCUSA? Anyhoot, from various statistics it was evident that Reformed Protestants generally have a 20-30% decrease in divorce rate than do other Christians.

 

I do not think it possible to accurately survey the divorce rate unless we were to also take into account whether a person was divorced previously before entering X church. Lastly, I am sure a spouse received a divorced status even when they were not the one that filed for divorce, but the status resulted from a spouse under a secular no fault divorce system.

 

God bless

William

 

 

All things being equal, atheists have the lowest of the divorce rates. I remember being surprised to read that. Granted there are a lot of ways we can read 'stats' and 'studies,' but evangelical Christians were the highest in the divorce category. I'm going to sleep, but I have thoughts as to why that might be. I'll post them tomorrow. :)

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I don't believe he did.

 

"Lying with a man as a man" and "Being in homosexual romantic relations" are actually fairly different, same with "lying with a woman as a woman". Jesus loves all, accepts all. One who cannot control attraction to someone, (It's honestly extremely debatable as to whether or not homosexuality is a choice or not) shouldn't be held guilty of any crime, or be condemned for anything. It just doesn't make sense.

 

I do know, that ultimately, it's not up to us to judge anyone for anything, ever. But rather, it is up to God alone.

Yet here we are, on this earth, judging, something that is God's job, and not ours.

 

On the topic of fornication, Adultery and fornication are two, entirely different things.

Fornication is sex before marriage, Adultery is having sex with someone who is not your spouse, when you are already married. I think, that it's up to context, if you're having sex in a One Night Stand, and you're not married (Obviously, hence one night stand) then it is, without a doubt, a sin.

If you have been dating someone for a while, and it's between two consenting people, and you want to have sex because you love them, then I see no wrong in that. Because the bible never directly condemns fornication, because originally, there were no references to fornication, but somehow there are in more modern translations. So now, everybody is getting worked up and feeling guilty because they had sex before marriage. Ultimately, I think it's up to the situation, and up to context.

 

Though, I believe it would be a bit more... Civil? If that's the word? To be married before having sex.

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Jesus loves all, accepts all.

 

Tell that to the people who will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Tell that to people Jesus will tell "Depart from me. I never knew you."

 

One who cannot control attraction to someone, (It's honestly extremely debatable as to whether or not homosexuality is a choice or not) shouldn't be held guilty of any crime, or be condemned for anything. It just doesn't make sense.

 

And, yet our intolerant nation treats pedophiles like criminals! There are people, like NAMBLA, already working to change those senseless laws.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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One who cannot control attraction to someone, (It's honestly extremely debatable as to whether or not homosexuality is a choice or not) shouldn't be held guilty of any crime, or be condemned for anything. It just doesn't make sense.

No one condemns anyone for being attracted to someone. The Bible only condemns those who act on that attraction in a way that contradicts God's commands. There are many Christians who experience sexual attraction to others of the same sex but who refuse to act on that attraction and instead choose to obey God's commands regarding sex. For the story of one of these people I suggest you read Washed and Waiting by Wesley Hill. You can find a description of the book here: https://www.christforums.org/forum/entertainment-fun/books/963-washed-and-waiting-the-story-of-a-gay-christian#post963

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...our intolerant nation treats pedophiles like criminals! There are people, like NAMBLA, already working to change those senseless laws.

 

Over my lifetime so far, abortion has become acceptable, the porn industry has become maistream, divorce is common, sexual promiscuousness is part of life, prostitution is OK in certain areas, homosexuality has come out of the closet, bisexuals have a right to live their fantasies, transexuals are the current rage in the media. Coming down the road, «the right to die with dignity» or euthanasia/mercy killing is gaining acceptance in the population at large.

 

NAMBLA, the North American Man-Boy Love Association is working to change our regressive attitudes towards pedophelia. I have no doubt that pedophelia will eventually be acceptable to the majority.

 

That's Progress...!

 

 

PermaFrost

 

 

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Jesus yet still, loves all.

 

We ourselves don't know who the Elect are. While I don't find it appropriate to say Jesus loves all, or even Jesus hates you or another in particular, I find it inappropriate to say things that are not biblical. I believe suggesting that God loves all really waters down God's Holiness. God hates sin, and the sin of the sinner is so serious that Jesus became sin for His elect, God's wrath was poured out on Jesus. If God had done the things mentioned in Scripture to His beloved Son in the Propitiation, imagine what He will do to many? Do the following verses make you consider your salvation with fear and trembling? If so, they should. It is far better to accept the love through Jesus rather than suffer the wrath of God.

  • Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"
  • Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."
  • Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."
  • Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."
  • Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."

God bless,

William

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Staff

 

Over my lifetime so far, abortion has become acceptable, the porn industry has become maistream, divorce is common, sexual promiscuousness is part of life, prostitution is OK in certain areas, homosexuality has come out of the closet, bisexuals have a right to live their fantasies, transexuals are the current rage in the media. Coming down the road, «the right to die with dignity» or euthanasia/mercy killing is gaining acceptance in the population at large.

 

NAMBLA, the North American Man-Boy Love Association is working to change our regressive attitudes towards pedophelia. I have no doubt that pedophelia will eventually be acceptable to the majority.

 

That's Progress...!

 

 

PermaFrost

 

 

There are people marrying inanimate objects now, and even animals. They call that progressive, I call it moral regression, those that fail to remember and learn from history are bound to repeat it.

 

God bless,

William

 

 

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Weren't those words said to people who had ministered in the name of God, cast out demons in the name of God not to homosexuals or adulteres. ("Depart from me. I never knew you."

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Weren't those words said to people who had ministered in the name of God, cast out demons in the name of God not to homosexuals or adulteres. ("Depart from me. I never knew you."

 

To be more precise, Jesus' words were directed to the Non Elect.

 

Cornelius' point is that Jesus does not love everyone or all. This is evident in Matthew 7:21-23:

 

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

 

Jesus used the word “knew” in the sense of personal, intimate awareness. Our Lord cannot be understood here as saying, I knew nothing about you, for it is quite evident that He knew all too much about them – their evil character and evil works; hence, His meaning must be, I never knew you intimately nor personally, I never regarded you as the objects of my favor or love. Paul uses the word in the same way in I Corinthians 8:3, “But if one loves God, one is known by him,” and also II Timothy 2:19, “the Lord knows those who are His.” The Lord knows about all men but He only knows those “who love Him, who are called according to His purpose” (Rom 8:28) – those who are His.

 

Notice, Jesus said, "I never knew you", and not "you never knew me" - John 6:44; John 10:26. Jesus first knew His, and you can bet they too love Jesus 1 John 4:19.

 

God bless,

William

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We ourselves don't know who the Elect are. While I don't find it appropriate to say Jesus loves all, or even Jesus hates you or another in particular, I find it inappropriate to say things that are not biblical. I believe suggesting that God loves all really waters down God's Holiness. God hates sin, and the sin of the sinner is so serious that Jesus became sin for His elect, God's wrath was poured out on Jesus. If God had done the things mentioned in Scripture to His beloved Son in the Propitiation, imagine what He will do to many? Do the following verses make you consider your salvation with fear and trembling? If so, they should. It is far better to accept the love through Jesus rather than suffer the wrath of God.

  • Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"
  • Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."
  • Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."
  • Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."
  • Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."

God bless,

William

 

Yes, there are many who aren't followers of God, and are "more sinful" than others, but God loves them all the same.

As Jesus was dying on the cross, he cried out "Father forgive them, they know not what they do!". You know why he sent his son here? Because, he loves us that much.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, so that whomever believe in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life", he sent his only begotten son, for us, a sinful, and wicked race. A man could walk outside, and go and commit mass genocide, but in God's eyes, that man is equally wicked to the man who stole a candy bar. God loves us all, there are so many places where it has been stated. Be it a homeless drug addict, or a lying teen, Jesus/God loves everybody, unconditionally.

 

Back on topic with the homosexuality being condemned though, I, believe if Jesus were here, he'd be a democrat. And, when youre faced with something, or any topic, you've gotta step back and ask yourself "Now, what would Jesus do?" Not "What shall I do". If God is all-loving, all-knowing, all-forgiving, then, he would want us to do the same, in turn, not only do I believe homosexuality acceptable in God's eyes, but it should be in the eyes of the people too.

 

I do not believe in the idea that everyone's fate is planned, we have a free will for a reason, if someone ends up being damned because of what they have or have not done, that is because they didn't use free will correctly, but really, who does? Simply put: Nobody uses free will 100% correctly.

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Originally posted by slippy View Post

Weren't those words said to people who had ministered in the name of God, cast out demons in the name of God not to homosexuals or adulteres. ("Depart from me. I never knew you."

 

To be more precise, Jesus' words were directed to the Non Elect.

 

Cornelius' point is that Jesus does not love everyone or all. This is evident in Matthew 7:21-23:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Jesus used the word “knew” in the sense of personal, intimate awareness. Our Lord cannot be understood here as saying, I knew nothing about you, for it is quite evident that He knew all too much about them – their evil character and evil works; hence, His meaning must be, I never knew you intimately nor personally, I never regarded you as the objects of my favor or love. Paul uses the word in the same way in I Corinthians 8:3, “But if one loves God, one is known by him,” and also II Timothy 2:19, “the Lord knows those who are His.” The Lord knows about all men but He only knows those “who love Him, who are called according to His purpose” (Rom 8:28) – those who are His.

 

Notice, Jesus said, "I never knew you", and not "you never knew me" - John 6:44; John 10:26. Jesus first knew His, and you can bet they too love Jesus 1 John 4:19.

 

God bless,

William

 

There is a teaching of serpent's seed which I do not see being a Scriptural one. OK, but this 'never' or 'from the beginning of the world' is a statement which I understand lines up with Yeshua's saying to the Pharisees:

Ye serpents, ye generation (offspring) of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” –Matthew 23:31-33

 

He did not mean that the whole becoming mankind was split and determined into two categories already in the beginning of the world. The serpents or serpent's seed in some languages carries the same content than sons of Abraham for example in Romans 4 "16 ... and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all."

 

The same thing in John 8:44

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Luke 3:8

Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

John 8:40- 42

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

 

Here we see in Luke 3:8 Yeshua saying that He could raise up children unto Abraham of stones and stones were not condemned to hell in the beginning for sure.

 

To have Abraham as your father or the devil as your father means that your father's spiritual seed is in you and leads you to do good things or bad things as we see in John 8:44.

 

'Never' was the word that triggered this post.

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No one condemns anyone for being attracted to someone.

 

Condemning others for their feelings and beliefs is part of the essence of Liberalism. That's why they cry "you're a bigot"... "you're racist"... when you say you want tax cuts or color-blind justice.

 

Pedophiles are roundly condemned just for being attracted to someone.

 

The law makes your feelings a central part of every criminal trial. Bruce Jenner killed someone with his car (maybe his dress snagged the brake peddle) but because his intent, his feelings, wasn't to kill someone, he wasn't charged with any crime. Hate-crime laws are designed specifically to punish people for their feelings and beliefs, they just need an action to kick in.

 

Jesus said to look at a woman with lust is adultery, because sin is really what's in side, not what's outside.

 

Indeed, doesn't all our sins start with our feelings, such as attraction to money?

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Condemning others for their feelings and beliefs is part of the essence of Liberalism. That's why they cry "you're a bigot"... "you're racist"... when you say you want tax cuts or color-blind justice.

 

Pedophiles are roundly condemned just for being attracted to someone.

 

The law makes your feelings a central part of every criminal trial. Bruce Jenner killed someone with his car (maybe his dress snagged the brake peddle) but because his intent, his feelings, wasn't to kill someone, he wasn't charged with any crime. Hate-crime laws are designed specifically to punish people for their feelings and beliefs, they just need an action to kick in.

 

Jesus said to look at a woman with lust is adultery, because sin is really what's in side, not what's outside.

 

Indeed, doesn't all our sins start with our feelings, such as attraction to money?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Liberalism is for the people though? For their rights, to help feed the hungry, to bring a shelter for the weak? Free healthcare?

 

Also, adultery is having sexual relations with someone who is not your spouse when you are married. Without a doubt. Also, lusting after a woman is not a sin, and vice versa with a woman lusting after a man, it's natural, not a sin in anyway. People misinterpret scripture, and think that having desire and attraction for a woman/man is a sin, when, it is not

 

Pedofiles aren't condemned for being attracted to someone, they're condemned for being foolish and being perverted in an extremely horrid fashion. It is different from being a homosexual.

 

 

I will provide you with this link, it explains what scripture actually meant in regards to sexuality and sexual desire... http://www.jasonstaples.com/bible/mo...atthew-527-28/

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Adultery means unlawful adulteration; to corrupt, pollute, pervert or render impure, especially that which is sacred, such as Holy Matrimony or the Holy Bible.

All sexual perversions are adultery. It is absurd to think that since Jesus is not recorded to have addressed homosexualism that he would in any way approve;

it is not allowed and the law does not change. Jesus also doesn't mention drinking blood or bestiality because no one would have asked such stupid questions.

​Conflation of divorce with sexual perversity is only a feeble attempt at diversion; divorce is allowed, sexual deviancy is not.

 

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