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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
Becky

What are the factors that make one a Christian?

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Asking for opinions here.

  As a kid i could tell a Pentecostal church lady by her manor of dress; She would be about 10 years behind the styles of the day. NO make-up. Hair pulled back into a an untidy bun at the back of her neck. Heavy dark stockings...  Those things did not ' make ' her a Christian. What make one a Christian? Not asking about being Saved by Grace that is a forgone conclusion .  The words we use or dont use? what we do or dont do?  I was about 40 became friends with a wonderful Christian woman.. At age 40 i was asking myself how can she be Christian when she smokes. Yet i knew/know a lot of fat Christians . What 'makes' us Christians? 

Are we to follow a set of rules? If so who's rules?  God does not put us in a box of regulations .. He said this: 

Mat 22:37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 
Mat 22:38  This is the first and great commandment. 
Mat 22:39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 
Mat 22:40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. 

 

Here He hammers His point home:

 

Joh 13:34  A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 
Joh 13:35  By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. 
Joh 15:12  This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 
Joh 15:13  Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 

Joh 15:17  These things I command you, that ye love one another. 


 What is it that gives us the right to claim He is our Father to take His name. 

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 Excellent thread title and topic.

 

 I will choose to provide information concerning the Tri-unity of God. I hope others can also choose other areas of study.

 

 The one true God of the Bible is Triune. Those who reject (a refusal to affirm is a rejection) the Trinity[*1] have embraced a false god - and a false god is utterly powerless to save (Isaiah 45:20). Thus a person is not a Christian if they do not accept the Triune God of the Bible.

 

 Jehovah's Witnesses and Christadelphians are not Christians because they reject the fact that the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God. They both also reject the personality of the Holy Spirit. Roman Catholics, although they affirm the Trinity, render prayer (a form of worship) to others besides God which is terrible blasphemy. This alone disqualifies them from being Christians.

 

1. There is only one true God (Jeremiah 10:10).

2. The Father is God (Malachi 2:10; 1 Corinthians 8:6).

3. The Lord Jesus is God. Thomas appropriately referred to Him as "my God" in John 20:28.[*2] The Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of worship which demonstrates that He is God.[*3]

4. The Holy Spirit is not simply a force or a power, but He has a personality. Notice He addresses Himself as "Me" and "I" in Acts 13:2. He has emotions (Ephesians 4:30) and a will (1 Corinthians 12:11).

He is God in that He has an omniscient mind (1 Corinthians 2:10).[*4] Being YHWH, He speaks with absolute authority (Acts 21:11).[*5]

5. The Triune God alone is to be worshiped (Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Revelation 1:4).[*6]

 

 

[*1] See post #2 for clarification.

https://www.christforums.com/forums/topic/6686-does-the-doctrine-of-the-trinity-matter/?tab=comments#comment-37395

 

[*2] https://www.christforums.com/forums/topic/4283-the-use-of-quotmy-godquot-in-john-2028/

 

[*3] https://www.christforums.com/forums/topic/8806-calling-on-the-name-of-the-lord-praying-to-jesus/

 

[*4]  BDAG (3rd Edition): Of the Spirit panta fathoms everything 1 Cor 2:10 (eraunaō, page 389).

 

[*5] The Holy Spirit is YHWH.   

     a. NIDNTT: In Acts 21:11 Agabus (like the prophets of the OT; cf. Isa. 20:2; Jer. 13:1 ff.) carried out a symbolic action with Paul's girdle (a long cloth worn about the waist), to indicate the coming arrest of Paul. "The accompanying word of interpretation 'Thus says the Holy Spirit!' corresponds to the OT 'Thus says Yahweh!'" (E. Haenchen, The Acts of the Apostles, 1971, 602) (3:121, Ready, F. Selter).

     b. John Gill: and said, thus saith the Holy Ghost; who was in Agabus, and spoke by him, and foretold some things to come to pass; and which did come to pass, and is a proof of the foreknowledge, and so of the deity of the blessed Spirit:
http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=ac&chapter=021&verse=011

 

[*6] Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14

https://www.christforums.com/forums/topic/20631-show-me-one-passage-that-says-trinity/

 Revelation 1:4 (see "F" in the OP)

https://www.christforums.com/forums/topic/5487-is-it-proper-to-worship-the-holy-spirit/?tab=comments#comment-29845

 

 

 

 

 

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Thank you @Faber

 

Question to every one .. Does Baptism make one a Christian? Why or why not. 

 

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I have a very loose definition of Christian. Actually a low view of the name rather than a high view.

 

A Christian is simply a follower of Christ in which they become learners or disciples.

 

When a person first becomes a Christian they may only recognize "God" and not yet have the personal understanding of the Trinity or be able to articulate the inner relationship of the Trinity.

 

Does anyone doubt that a "disciple" is a Christian?

 

Based on this loose definition I believe there are familiar persons that resemble Judas Iscariot as well as Judas Didymus Thomas which are Christian today.

 

 I believe Mormons and JWs etc are Christian. They are not Christian denominational but they are Christian Cults. Likewise I believe Amish, Quakers, etc are Christian Sects.

 

How do I come to this conclusion? Simply by observation of thousands of people every month for the last decade or more on the web.

 

I gave up trying to figure out who is a born again Christian or simply Christian. I do however enjoy breaking down what each individual believes into various theological schools of thought. There's too much "fruit" that can't be conveyed through the communication of the web for me to distinguish which is genuine.

 

God bless,

William

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Becky said:

Asking for opinions here.

  As a kid i could tell a Pentecostal church lady by her manor of dress; She would be about 10 years behind the styles of the day. NO make-up. Hair pulled back into a an untidy bun at the back of her neck. Heavy dark stockings...  Those things did not ' make ' her a Christian. What make one a Christian? Not asking about being Saved by Grace that is a forgone conclusion .  The words we use or dont use? what we do or dont do?  I was about 40 became friends with a wonderful Christian woman.. At age 40 i was asking myself how can she be Christian when she smokes. Yet i knew/know a lot of fat Christians . What 'makes' us Christians? 

Are we to follow a set of rules? If so who's rules?  God does not put us in a box of regulations .. He said this: 

Mat 22:37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 
Mat 22:38  This is the first and great commandment. 
Mat 22:39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 
Mat 22:40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. 

 

Here He hammers His point home:

 

Joh 13:34  A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 
Joh 13:35  By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. 
Joh 15:12  This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 
Joh 15:13  Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 

Joh 15:17  These things I command you, that ye love one another. 


 What is it that gives us the right to claim He is our Father to take His name. 

After spending many years in church, I have become convinced it is all about our hearts.

Our goal is to walk like Jesus, no matter how distant that appears, walking towards the goal is our path.

Purity, holiness, repentance, cleansing, loving, caring is foundational.

 

The most resistance I have come across is from "believers" who have a problem in their own lives, which

appears linked to closed hearts, pain and a desire to not forgive or resolve issues from their past.

 

The thief on the cross could not show all these aspects in their life, but they did repent, confess, put their

faith in Jesus and asked Him to help.  It is this golden thread that seems fundamental.

 

I have met many with varying experiences and emphasises but if the hearts are cleansed and sort we have

a great fellowship, which I am always amazed at.  On the other hand those who seem most opposed have

closed hearts and found Jesus's words condemning and difficult to face.

 

I love Jesus's promises to be with us if we seek Him and His ways.

 

29 But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Deut 4

 

9 "So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
10 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."

Luke 11

 

23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him."

John 14

Edited by FollowHisSteps
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27 minutes ago, FollowHisSteps said:

23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him."

John 14

Interesting,

 

Just curious, is there a deadline to the degree we obey and the degree we come?

 

For example, in your own life, were you that much further away back then than today? Have you progressed in sanctification? What if someone kicked you out of the church because you didn't show maturity both in life and doctrine from the very beginning?

 

Thanks for answering in advance,

God bless,

William

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"By their fruit,  you will know them."

The fruit of the Spirit ... Gal. 5:22, 23 

You will see people loving one another among Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims or atheists. You will also see people of honorable godly attributes, such as we see in the list of the fruit is the Spirit.

But they can't honestly say Jesus is Lord unless they have the Spirit if God in them. We can look at their works, if their confession is not honest. The Spirit produces fruit in the believer, those are the works In referring to. But then what of those who produce fruit, who aren't Christian? That is puzzling. My father was one who appeared to be a Christian, who exhibited fruit, yet most of his life claimed to be an atheist.

A couple years before he died, he made his peace and believed. So, he was on God's list to be saved and in God's domain, who functions outside of time, my Dad was already saved - but not yet in ours.

What dies that mean? He was guiding him, preparing him, loving him all along. You see, he was brought up in a Catholic family, who all believed, his parents and all seven sisters. Nit when he was ten, his Dad got a life threatening illness, TB. He got in his knees and prayed for his life -- God said NO. So my Dad lost his faith ... he was broken and angry, so fell away. Well, God did not forget him. 

We never know who is on his list, who is a Christian or whose heart is being prepared.

 

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11 hours ago, William said:

I gave up trying to figure out who is a born again Christian or simply Christian. I do however enjoy breaking down what each individual believes into various theological schools of thought. There's too much "fruit" that can't be conveyed through the communication of the web for me to distinguish which is genuine.

 

Yes William, I quit speculating also. You see another person explaining his spiritual interactions with the Holy Spirit just as you have experienced: And yet, he believes some things entirely different from you. Then, the more you share with them you start seeing similarities that you agree upon. Maybe it's a communication problem.

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19 hours ago, William said:

Interesting,

 

Just curious, is there a deadline to the degree we obey and the degree we come?

 

For example, in your own life, were you that much further away back then than today? Have you progressed in sanctification? What if someone kicked you out of the church because you didn't show maturity both in life and doctrine from the very beginning?

 

Thanks for answering in advance,

God bless,

William

 

Jesus calls us to obey and follow.  Why do you think He calls?  So that we might just say impossible this this just a joke, I will

stay as I am, or through following we change, grow and achieve the very things we started as saying is impossible.

 

25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
27 Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"
28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
Matt 19  

 

Before you start a journey you do not know if you will finish it or how you will do.

Communion and fellowship with Jesus and His people is our calling.  As far as progress is concerned Paul says it like this

 

3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.
4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

1 Cor 4

 

What is often difficult is after one has changed to say how one will react to new situations.  Paul said this is to be our goal

 

Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.

2 Cor 13

 

God bless you

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On 8/28/2019 at 5:43 PM, Becky said:

What is it that gives us the right to claim He is our Father to take His name. 

John 1:12-13 KJV
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power (authority) to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: [13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

Galatians 4:6 KJVS
[6] And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

 

Edited by Solas
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On 8/29/2019 at 8:51 AM, Becky said:

Thank you @Faber

 

Question to every one .. Does Baptism make one a Christian? Why or why not. 

 

Depending on what Baptism is received . We are Baptized into the body of Christ and receive the indwelling Holy Spirit at the moment we receive Him as our Savior and Lord. Then there is a second Baptism that consist of water emersion that acts as a public admission that we are " In Christ " . We "Receive "Christ . Never do we "Accept " Him. That word is never used when referring to the new birth .There are those who believe in Lordship salvation. That is totally false since He must be received as our Savior before He becomes our Lord.      

Edited by Matthew A.Duvall
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What are the factors that make one a Christian?

 

A. On God's part...grace, mercy and a perfect sacrifice.

B. On our part sin, rebellion, and selfishness.

 

The miracle is when A conquers B

 

 

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It is interesting thinking about faith.

When I trust scripture, do I really trust scripture or am I just hoping what I have got is ok, and do not push it too far, or it might fall apart.

 

A christian who is following Jesus, pushes everything they can in Him, to find its truth.

 

Today I took up a challenge of contradictions.  Someone talked about the contradictions, and mentioned seeing God.

Turns out many have miss-quoted God.  Seeing God is seeing His face, the reality of who He is.

"you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." Exodus 33:20

 

How many times do we give up at apparent problems, rather than waiting for wisdom to dawn in our hearts?

Do we love love itself, or just the idea of salvation and security?

 

Do we want that which Christ is offering, but only on certain conditions, because we are not sure we can trust Him?

In truth we have limits, and what we can cope with.  But as I walk with Jesus, I discover actually He is taking me forwards,

it is just His pace is real, while mine is I want to arrive after I have just taken the first step.  God bless you.

 

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On 8/28/2019 at 8:06 PM, Faber said:

 Excellent thread title and topic.

 

 I will choose to provide information concerning the Tri-unity of God. I hope others can also choose other areas of study.

 

 The one true God of the Bible is Triune. Those who reject (a refusal to affirm is a rejection) the Trinity[*1] have embraced a false god - and a false god is utterly powerless to save (Isaiah 45:20). Thus a person is not a Christian if they do not accept the Triune God of the Bible.

 

 Jehovah's Witnesses and Christadelphians are not Christians because they reject the fact that the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God. They both also reject the personality of the Holy Spirit. Roman Catholics, although they affirm the Trinity, render prayer (a form of worship) to others besides God which is terrible blasphemy. This alone disqualifies them from being Christians.

 

1. There is only one true God (Jeremiah 10:10).

2. The Father is God (Malachi 2:10; 1 Corinthians 8:6).

3. The Lord Jesus is God. Thomas appropriately referred to Him as "my God" in John 20:28.[*2] The Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of worship which demonstrates that He is God.[*3]

4. The Holy Spirit is not simply a force or a power, but He has a personality. Notice He addresses Himself as "Me" and "I" in Acts 13:2. He has emotions (Ephesians 4:30) and a will (1 Corinthians 12:11).

He is God in that He has an omniscient mind (1 Corinthians 2:10).[*4] Being YHWH, He speaks with absolute authority (Acts 21:11).[*5]

5. The Triune God alone is to be worshiped (Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Revelation 1:4).[*6]

 

 

[*1] See post #2 for clarification.

https://www.christforums.com/forums/topic/6686-does-the-doctrine-of-the-trinity-matter/?tab=comments#comment-37395

 

[*2] https://www.christforums.com/forums/topic/4283-the-use-of-quotmy-godquot-in-john-2028/

 

[*3] https://www.christforums.com/forums/topic/8806-calling-on-the-name-of-the-lord-praying-to-jesus/

 

[*4]  BDAG (3rd Edition): Of the Spirit panta fathoms everything 1 Cor 2:10 (eraunaō, page 389).

 

[*5] The Holy Spirit is YHWH.   

     a. NIDNTT: In Acts 21:11 Agabus (like the prophets of the OT; cf. Isa. 20:2; Jer. 13:1 ff.) carried out a symbolic action with Paul's girdle (a long cloth worn about the waist), to indicate the coming arrest of Paul. "The accompanying word of interpretation 'Thus says the Holy Spirit!' corresponds to the OT 'Thus says Yahweh!'" (E. Haenchen, The Acts of the Apostles, 1971, 602) (3:121, Ready, F. Selter).

     b. John Gill: and said, thus saith the Holy Ghost; who was in Agabus, and spoke by him, and foretold some things to come to pass; and which did come to pass, and is a proof of the foreknowledge, and so of the deity of the blessed Spirit:
http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=ac&chapter=021&verse=011

 

[*6] Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14

https://www.christforums.com/forums/topic/20631-show-me-one-passage-that-says-trinity/

 Revelation 1:4 (see "F" in the OP)

https://www.christforums.com/forums/topic/5487-is-it-proper-to-worship-the-holy-spirit/?tab=comments#comment-29845

 

 

 

 

 

I am a Trinitarian. However, I do believe that a person can believe that Jesus was sent by God, His Father, to die for our sins and that He rose on the third day with a simple and basic understanding and awareness. First, second or tenth century Christians did not fully understand concepts of the Trinity. Do you really think for the first 1500 years, before the Bible was in print, that people had the in depth knowledge and understanding as people do today? We have several Bible versions, study bibles, concordance, Greek lexicons, thousands of commentaries, preachers giving sermons on the radio and TV all day long ... we are fortunate, learned and I believe much  more knowledgeable than the average Christian back then. Yet they had faith, based on little knowledge and understanding. They believed and were saved. They also made mistakes about their theology. Look at the letters to the seven churches - only two were in good standing, the rest needed to repent on many counts. Some taught false doctrines, some were almost dead churches with few believers, and sinful.

The point is, a child can understand the basics and have faith in Christ. Ask Him to explain the Trinity and he would probably fail. He/she believes in Jesus, follows Jesus and begins to grow in Christ. 

Jehovah Witnesses believe in Jesus, follow and obey Him. They do not understand the nature of the Comforter, the Helper. They believe the Father is above Jesus and therefore worship Him. Does that void their faith in Christ? They believe in and obey Christ - yet are misinformed about His nature. HE prayed to His Father, He said, His Father is greater and referred to Him as My God and your God. That is true, but it is not complete. So what then. I'll tell you, God saves them, is merciful, but doesn't grow their Church. In 100 years they only have 8.5 million and Mormons 15 million. 

The Mormons believe in Jesus and they have additional books and stories, conflicting with the Bible, but I think their saving grace is that they believe in the Bible. Do those other books invalidate their faith in Christ? 

There are about a 100 million non-Trinitarian believers out of 2.5 billion. They believe in Christ, that He died for their sins, that He rose on the third day - which is the gospel btw.

Finally, Catholics are Christians, THEY BELIEVE IN CHRIST

They are wrong about certain doctrines, which is why Luther came along, but their faith is not made void. The Holy Spirit worked in and through them for a thousand years and still does!  I suppose you invalidate all those Catholics as being saved? We are all flawed in our understanding in one way or another. GOD FACTORS ALL ARE FLAWS INTO HIS PERFECT PLAN.

 

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15 minutes ago, Ronald said:

We have several Bible versions, study bibles, concordance, Greek lexicons, thousands of commentaries, preachers giving sermons on the radio and TV all day long ... we are fortunate, learned and I believe much  more knowledgeable than the average Christian back then. 

Jehovah Witnesses believe in Jesus, follow and obey Him. They do not understand the nature of the Comforter, the Helper. They believe the Father is above Jesus and therefore worship Him. Does that void their faith in Christ? They believe in and obey Christ - yet are misinformed about His nature. HE prayed to His Father, He said, His Father is greater and referred to Him as My God and your God. That is true, but it is not complete. So what then. I'll tell you, God saves them

 

 Based on what you wrote above heretical groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses have no excuse for they began in the late 1800's. God does not save them because God does not save anyone who has a false Jesus - a jesus that was created and a jesus that is not to be worshiped.

 Mormons believe in a jesus - not the Jesus of the Bible. Thus they have a false Jesus and a false Jesus cannot save anyone.

 Catholics are not Christians for they worship Mary and a whole host of other beings. This is blasphemous and it is a direct violation of the command to worship God alone (Matthew 4:10; cf. 1 Samuel 7:3).

 

 According to Romans 10:13 the gospel includes the fact that the Lord Jesus is YHWH (Joel 3:5 LXX) and those who refuse to ever call upon Him (that means pray to Him) as YHWH are not saved.

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Many views can be shared about what makes one a christian. After having gone through studies in the sermon on the mount by Dr Martyn Lloyd Jones, these principles as recorded in matthew chapters 5-7 are central to christian living.

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On 9/5/2019 at 5:36 PM, Faber said:

 

 Based on what you wrote above heretical groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses have no excuse for they began in the late 1800's. God does not save them because God does not save anyone who has a false Jesus - a jesus that was created and a jesus that is not to be worshiped.

 Mormons believe in a jesus - not the Jesus of the Bible. Thus they have a false Jesus and a false Jesus cannot save anyone.

 Catholics are not Christians for they worship Mary and a whole host of other beings. This is blasphemous and it is a direct violation of the command to worship God alone (Matthew 4:10; cf. 1 Samuel 7:3).

 

 According to Romans 10:13 the gospel includes the fact that the Lord Jesus is YHWH (Joel 3:5 LXX) and those who refuse to ever call upon Him (that means pray to Him) as YHWH are not saved.

They believe Jesus died for their sins and rose on the third day. I agree that they distort who He is in some ways, but they read the Bible, believe what He did and obey Him as much as any of us. 

Catholics don't worship Mary, they pray to her for intercession and to the Saints as well. Empty prayers - true, but they also pray directly to our Father. You should not judge them all, you are not qualified, nor were you appointed to be judge. Judge not lest you be judged. The Catholics carried the gospel for a long time before Protestants came along. All the churches, hospitals, orphanages, all the missions they began did not go out void. Be careful!

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1 hour ago, Ronald said:

I agree that they distort who He is in some ways, but they read the Bible, believe what He did and obey Him as much as any of us. 

You realize that wasn't always so? That began with the Protestant Reformation.

1 hour ago, Ronald said:

The Catholics carried the gospel for a long time before Protestants came along.

 

Did they? The catholic church consisted of members that were consistent with Apostolic doctrine. When the catholic church veered off course one group went apostate and the others remained and tried to realign the catholic church back to orthodoxy (Protestants). What I'm saying is that Protestants are catholic and Catholics are apostate. If you however mean that the catholic church is the buildings and fanciful artwork which led to the church's debt and the selling of indulgences rather than the Apostolic doctrine we believe and teach I understand by which you convey is the catholic church:

 

 "Pelagianism was condemned. Six years after the council of Carthage a general council of African Churches reaffirmed the anathemas of 412 AD. Zosimus sided with Pelagius in 412, he wrote a letter condemning the anathema of Carthage. Of course having the support of Scripture, the leaders of the Carthagian Council disregarded the Bishop and his letter. Philip Schaff noted church historian observes, "This temporary favor of the bishop of Rome towards the Pelagian heresy is a significant presage of the indulgence of later popes for pelagianizing tendencies". It was these later "pelagianizing tendencies" that lead to the works-righteousness advocated by the bishop of Rome that later led to the Roman Catholic belief system. This was a pivotal moment in church history. Cornelius Otto Jansen like Martin Luther believed the early Church of Rome departed from its position that all of life was by the grace of God. And like Augustine Jansen taught that man's spirit was dead in sin, and therefore needed to be regenerated. Jansen understood that this was something that happened to man by God's grace and not something man made happen by his faith. In 1713 Pope Clement the XI issued a Papal Bull denouncing over 100 statements, many of which were actual quotes of Augustine. A Church that once sided with Augustine now sided with Pelagius."

 

 

God bless,

William

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Reading post #1 made me want to go out and have a cigar. 

 

 I think that all of us Christians should have had the same middle name.

((((( Repent ))))) 

 

 Consider this a good sign.

 As we get older and grow in the faith we sin less but, our sin bothers us more.

 

Once again Repent. 

 

M-Bob 

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On 8/29/2019 at 9:51 AM, Becky said:

Thank you @Faber

 

Question to every one .. Does Baptism make one a Christian? Why or why not. 

 

Howdy! Awesome thread. I do believe that God's grace given in Baptism makes one a Christian because ( generally) it begins the life of Faith: sins are forgiven, the Holy Spirit enters one's life and one grows in the Christian life by hearing the Word properly expounded and the Sacraments of Absolution and the Lord's Supper are properly administered. Baptism incorporates one into the Body of Christ !

 

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On 9/9/2019 at 10:59 AM, William said:

You realize that wasn't always so? That began with the Protestant Reformation.

 

Did they? The catholic church consisted of members that were consistent with Apostolic doctrine. When the catholic church veered off course one group went apostate and the others remained and tried to realign the catholic church back to orthodoxy (Protestants). What I'm saying is that Protestants are catholic and Catholics are apostate. If you however mean that the catholic church is the buildings and fanciful artwork which led to the church's debt and the selling of indulgences rather than the Apostolic doctrine we believe and teach I understand by which you convey is the catholic church:

 

 "Pelagianism was condemned. Six years after the council of Carthage a general council of African Churches reaffirmed the anathemas of 412 AD. Zosimus sided with Pelagius in 412, he wrote a letter condemning the anathema of Carthage. Of course having the support of Scripture, the leaders of the Carthagian Council disregarded the Bishop and his letter. Philip Schaff noted church historian observes, "This temporary favor of the bishop of Rome towards the Pelagian heresy is a significant presage of the indulgence of later popes for pelagianizing tendencies". It was these later "pelagianizing tendencies" that lead to the works-righteousness advocated by the bishop of Rome that later led to the Roman Catholic belief system. This was a pivotal moment in church history. Cornelius Otto Jansen like Martin Luther believed the early Church of Rome departed from its position that all of life was by the grace of God. And like Augustine Jansen taught that man's spirit was dead in sin, and therefore needed to be regenerated. Jansen understood that this was something that happened to man by God's grace and not something man made happen by his faith. In 1713 Pope Clement the XI issued a Papal Bull denouncing over 100 statements, many of which were actual quotes of Augustine. A Church that once sided with Augustine now sided with Pelagius."

 

 

God bless,

William

I stand firm on my statement, the Catholic (universal) Church, with all its flaws carried the Gospel for a 1000+ years before God sent correction. They are not an apostate church. I consider Catholics brothers and sisters in Christ. They still carry the gospel. It isn't that difficult, it's one sentence - hard to foul up: "Jesus died for our sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures". Jesus said, " If you believe in Me, you will be saved". He didn't say you must have all the doctrine correct ... Or else! That is what qualifies us, belief in Jesus. 

The truth is, most of us are all flawed theologians (you and I as well). There are over a billion Catholics and you would consider them apostate? How judgmental. Are you being  filled with the Holy Spirit when you say that??? It sounds like the Pharisee's condemnation against Jesus. 

Do you know what apostate means? One who would denounce their faith in Jesus. IN other words, it means against Christ. So I suppose all the art work, statues, stained glass windows and the Sistine Chapel are reflections of people denouncing and against Christ? So I suppose you think hundreds of millions of Catholics get together every Sunday because they are denouncing Christ? Really? That sounds wacko to me.

Praying to Mary is not against the Trinity, it's an empty prayer, since she doesn't hear them. Even if she did, she has no special clout to mediate prayers to the Father. JESUS IS OUR MEDIATOR. IN their mind they are asking Mary to pray for them, for help, thinking she can pass it along to her Son - they don't worship her. People ask others to pray for them. Some may have believed if Billy Graham prayed for them it  would somehow be more effective then anyone else's prayer - not so. They pray to the Father with the Lord's prayer - I suppose that is an apostate prayer?

 

And btw, my comment about reading the Bible and having faith was in reference to the Jehovah WITNESSES and the Mormons. 

 

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2 hours ago, Ronald said:

I stand firm on my statement, the Catholic (universal) Church, with all its flaws carried the Gospel for a 1000+ years before God sent correction.

Isn't that what I said?

 

2 hours ago, Ronald said:

They are not an apostate church. I consider Catholics brothers and sisters in Christ. They still carry the gospel. It isn't that difficult, it's one sentence - hard to foul up: "Jesus died for our sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures". Jesus said, " If you believe in Me, you will be saved". He didn't say you must have all the doctrine correct ... Or else! That is what qualifies us, belief in Jesus. 

You obviously do not understand the difference between Catholic and catholic. Furthermore, doesn't matter what you state as your opinion of what Catholic are or are not what matters is whether Catholics align with the definition of apostate:

 

Apostasy means a falling away. Therefore when we speak of apostasy in the Christian church we are speaking of the visible church falling away from the essential doctrinal truths and becoming false. To apostacize means to abandon previously held beliefs. This abandonment can be on intentional or accidental. There can be individuals and or denominations that purposely repudiate the essential doctrines of the Christian faith. There can also be individuals and or denominations that do not intentionally abandon the basics of Christian doctrine, but have gradually moved away from them. Catholicism has fallen away from the true Christian faith by violating the teaching of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone (Protestant Solas).

 

2 hours ago, Ronald said:

The truth is, most of us are all flawed theologians (you and I as well). There are over a billion Catholics and you would consider them apostate? How judgmental.

I doubt you'd discern the truth from falsehood if you were trapped in a wet paper bag full of your own self-deception and were given a knife to cut yourself out from within.

 

And, your snotty judgmental attitude towards others is growing tiring. Instead of discerning doctrine you must turn towards people's behavior. While you say others are judging you're hypocritically excusing yourself from judging others thus violating your own standard of misunderstood biblical judgment.

 

2 hours ago, Ronald said:

Do you know what apostate means? One who would denounce their faith in Jesus. IN other words, it means against Christ. So I suppose all the art work, statues, stained glass windows and the Sistine Chapel are reflections of people denouncing and against Christ? So I suppose you think hundreds of millions of Catholics get together every Sunday because they are denouncing Christ? Really? That sounds wacko to me.

Do you? Do you even understand Catholic soteriology? Do you even know the history of indulgences and what led the church into selling them? Leo X greedily allowed his tastes for fanciful artwork to exceed his financial resources. So enter the artists and sculptors Raphael and Michelangelo and into the selling of indulgences to obtain their masterpieces.

2 hours ago, Ronald said:

Praying to Mary is not against the Trinity, it's an empty prayer, since she doesn't hear them. Even if she did, she has no special clout to mediate prayers to the Father. JESUS IS OUR MEDIATOR. IN their mind they are asking Mary to pray for them, for help, thinking she can pass it along to her Son - they don't worship her. People ask others to pray for them. Some may have believed if Billy Graham prayed for them it  would somehow be more effective then anyone else's prayer - not so. They pray to the Father with the Lord's prayer - I suppose that is an apostate prayer?

You're definitely not Protestant. The Catholic Church taught that we are saved by the merits of Christ and the saints, and that we approach God through Christ, the saints, and Mary, who all pray and intercede for us. The Protestant Reformers responded, “No, we are saved by the merits of Christ Alone, and we come to God through Christ Alone” ~ "Solo Christo is one of the five solae that summarize the Protestant Reformers' basic belief that salvation is obtained through the atoning work of Christ alone, apart from individual works, and that Christ is the only mediator between God and man. It holds that salvation cannot be obtained without Christ."

 

2 hours ago, Ronald said:

And btw, my comment about reading the Bible and having faith was in reference to the Jehovah WITNESSES and the Mormons. 

To make this perfectly clear I'm directing my posts to "YOU". It would behoove you to wise up so that you do not fall more prey than you already are due to your lack of theological discernment:

 

  • Desires "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires," (2 Timothy 4:3).
  • False teachers "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many," (Matthew 24:11).
  • "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect," (Matt. 24:24).
  • "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons," (1 Timothy 4:1).
  • Persecution "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another," (Matthew 24:9-10).
  • "and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away," (Mark 4:17).
  • Temptation "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away," (Luke 8:13).
  • Unbelief  "Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God," (Hebrews 3:12).

 

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1 hour ago, Ronald said:

IN their mind they are asking Mary to pray for them, for help, thinking she can pass it along to her Son - they don't worship her. People ask others to pray for them. 

 

 In regards to sentence #1: You didn't address any of the evidence I supplied from the link in post #19 that demonstrates prayer is worship.

 

 

 In regards to sentence #2: I already addressed this point in the same link. Here it is again...

 Prayer is not just talking to someone and it is not asking a friend to pray for you in the same way as asking Mary or the other saints to pray for you because many times prayers can be silent (and in many different languages) and another person would not know what is being requested from multitudes of people at the same time. In fact, when multiple people addressed the commander in Acts 21:34 he was unable to fully understand what all the people were saying. This would present no difficulty at all with the omniscient God.

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23 hours ago, Faber said:

 

 In regards to sentence #1: You didn't address any of the evidence I supplied from the link in post #19 that demonstrates prayer is worship.

 

 

 In regards to sentence #2: I already addressed this point in the same link. Here it is again...

 Prayer is not just talking to someone and it is not asking a friend to pray for you in the same way as asking Mary or the other saints to pray for you because many times prayers can be silent (and in many different languages) and another person would not know what is being requested from multitudes of people at the same time. In fact, when multiple people addressed the commander in Acts 21:34 he was unable to fully understand what all the people were saying. This would present no difficulty at all with the omniscient God.

Right, there's a difference between praying "for" and "to". But of course the Catholics are saying Mary is alive and they simply pray "to" her in order for her to intercede "for" us.

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