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LoveGodsWord

Is it possible to fall away from the faith and lose salvation?

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Posted (edited)

Hi all nice to meet you here. I am new so thought I would post s topic for discussion..

 

CAN WE FALL AWAY FROM THE FAITH AND DEPART FROM GOD?

 

2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-4

[1], Now we beseech you, brothers, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together to him,
[2], That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3], Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4], Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

 

Who is the warning to; BELIEVERS or UNBELIEVERS? The WARNING is for BELIEVERS which is the CONTEXT. This is verified in v1-3.  [1], Now we beseech you, brothers, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together to him, [2], That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3], Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

 

The Greek word used here for "FALLING AWAY" is ἀποστασία; apostasia; which means defection from truth (properly the state), (" apostasy" - falling away, forsake.

 

The reason for the FALLING AWAY is that those who fell away did not receive a LOVE of the truth that they might be saved *2 THESSALONIANS 2:10. They did not CONTINUE in God's WORD *JOHN 8:31-32 believing and following it and became "UNBELIEVERS".They had the truth, did not love the truth and fell away from the truth of Gods' WORD. The very CONTEXT here is v2 "BE NOT SHAKEN IN MIND" v3 "LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU". There will be a v3 FALLING AWAY (DEPARTING FROM THE TRUTH ἀποστασία; apostasia).

 

The reason for the FALLING AWAY is that those who fell away did not receive a LOVE of the truth that they might be saved *2 THESSALONIANS 2:10. They did not CONTINUE in God's WORD *JOHN 8:31-32 believing and following it and became "UNBELIEVERS".

 

HEBREWS 3:12

[12], TAKE HEED BRETHEREN LEST THERE BE IN ANY OF YOU AN EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD.

 

HEBREWS 6:4-8
[4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6], IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 PETER 2:20-22

[20], FOR IT THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST, THEY ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED THEREIN AND OVERCOME, THE LATTER END IS WORSE THEN THE BEGGINING.
[21], FOR IT HAD BEEN BETTER FOR THEN NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAN, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT DELIEVERED UNTO THEM.
[22], But it is happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

HEBREWS 10:26-31
26, FOR IT WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER WE RECEIVE A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
27, BUT A FEARFUL LOOKING FORWARD FOR OF JUDGEMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
28, He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29, OF HOW MUCH MORE SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED AN UNHOLY THING AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
30, For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31, IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.

 

GALATIANS 1:6
[6] I marvel that you are TURNING AWAY SO SOON from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, TO A DIFFERENT GOSPEL.

 

HEBREWS 2:1-3
Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, LEST WE DRIFT AWAY. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him.

HEBREWS 10:35-38
[35], CAST NOT AWAY THEREFORE YOUR CONFIDENCE, which has great recompense of reward. [36], For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise. [37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [38], Now the just shall live by faith: BUT IF ANY MAN SHALL DRAW BACK, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Well you get the picture, there is too many more scriptures that can be included here and we have not even started in the OLD TESTATMENT scriptures... God's Word says that we can indeed fall away and lose our salvation and warns us to continue in God's Word..

 

JESUS says that to be His disciples we must CONTINUE believing and following His Word...

 

JOHN 8:31-36

[31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;
[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
[33], They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say you, You shall be made free?
[34], Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Whoever commits sin is the servant of sin.
[35], And the servant stays not in the house for ever: but the Son stays ever.
[36], If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.

 

Our salvation is conditional on believeing and following God's Word always in the "present tense" (the now). Someone that believed and followed Gods Word yesterday but today has fallen away from believing and following God's Word today and has fallen back to a life of sin is no longer a believer but has become an unbeliever and it not in a saved state before God unless they return to God in repentance, confession of sin and faith in God's Word.

 

DO WE HAVE TO ENDURE TEMPTATION TO THE END BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING GOD'S WORD IN ORDER TO BE SAVED?

 

MATTHEW 24:13 [12], And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [13], But HE THAT ENDURES TO THE END SHALL BE SAVED.

MARK 13:13 [13], And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but HE THAT ENDURES TO THE END SHALL BE SAVED.

HEBREWS 3:13-14 [13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14], FOR WE ARE MADE PARTAKERS WITH CHRIST IF WE HOLD THE COPNFDENCE OF OUR FAITH STEADFAST TO THE END.

HEBREWS 3:6 [6], But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF WE HOLD FAST THE CONFIDENCE AND THE REJOICING OF THE HOPE FIRM TO THE END.

COLOSSIANS 1:12-14; 23
[12], Giving thanks to the Father, which has made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
[13], Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
[14], In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.....
[23], IF YOU CONTINUE IN THE FAITH GROUNDED AND SETTLED AND BE NOT MOVED AWAY FROM THE HOPE OF THE GOSPEL WHICH YOU HAVE HEARD, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF YOU CONTINUE IN MY WORD THEN ARE YOU MY DISCIPLES INDEED; [32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

 

1JOHN 1:7 But IF WE WALK IN THE LIGHT AS HE IS IN THE LIGHT we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

 

1 JOHN 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. IF THAT WHICH YOU HAVE HEARD FROM THE BEGGINING SHALL REMAIN IN YOU, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

 

HEBREWS 3:12-14 [12], TAKE HEED BRETHEREN LEST THERE BE IN ANY OF YOU AN EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF IN DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD. [13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14], FOR WE ARE MADE PARTAKERS WITH CHRIST IF ER HOLD THE BEGINNING OF OUR CONFIDENCE STEADFAST UNTO THE END.

 

WHAT IS IT THAT WE HAVE TO ENDURE?

 

JAMES 1:12 BLESSED IS THE MAN THAT ENDURES TEMPTATION FOR WHEN HE IS TRIED HE SHALL RECEIVE THE CROWN OF LIFE WHICH THE LORD HAS PROMISED TO THEM THAT LOVE HIM  (JOHN 14:15, If you love me, keep my commandments).

 

MATTHEW 26:41, Watch and pray, that you enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

MARK 13:33 Take you heed, watch and pray: for you know not when the time is.

LUKE 21: 34-26 [34], And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come on you unawares.
[35], For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. [36], Watch you therefore, and pray always, that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

MATTHEW 6:9-13 [9], After this manner therefore pray you: Our Father which are in heaven, Hallowed be your name. [10], Your kingdom come, Your will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
[11], Give us this day our daily bread. [12], And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. [13], And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For your is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

LUKE 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

LUKE 22:40 And when he was at the place, he said to them, Pray that you enter not into temptation.

1CORINTHIANS 10:13 There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it.

1 TIMOTHY 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

wait for it.....

JAMES 1:12 Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to them that love him.

 

WHO ARE THOSE WHO RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE?

 

REVELATION 2:26 And he that overcomes, and keeps my works to the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

REVELATION 3:5 He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

REVELATION 3:12 Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write on him my new name.

REVELATION 3:21 To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

REVELATION 21:7 He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

1 TIMOTHY 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto you are also called, and have professed a good profession before many witnesses.

2 TIMOTHY 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith

 

It is only those who endure temptation to the end and over come sin (breaking God's Commandments) through faith in God's Word that do not fall away from believing and following God's Word that receive eternal life.

 

.............

 

QUESTIONS:

 

1. CAN WE FALL AWAY FROM BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING GOD'S WORD TO BECOME UNBELIVERS AND NO LONGER BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD?

2. ARE WE IN A SAVED STATE BEFORE GOD OR AN UNSAVED STATE BEFORE GOD IF WE ARE LIVING IN A LIFE OF KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN?

 

God bless.

 

 

 

 

Edited by LoveGodsWord

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18 hours ago, LoveGodsWord said:

QUESTIONS:

1. CAN WE FALL AWAY FROM BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING GOD'S WORD TO BECOME UNBELIVERS AND NO LONGER BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD?

2. ARE WE IN A SAVED STATE BEFORE GOD OR AN UNSAVED STATE BEFORE GOD IF WE ARE LIVING IN A LIFE OF KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN?

 

 1. No

 2. Before or after conversion?

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Faber said:

 

 1. No

 2. Before or after conversion?

Hi Faber nice to meet you. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. For me though I choose to beleive God's Word as shown in the OP.

Edited by LoveGodsWord
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21 hours ago, LoveGodsWord said:

Hi Faber nice to meet you. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. For me though I choose to beleive God's Word as shown in the OP.

And nice meeting you. Just wanted to say hello before responding.

On 6/24/2019 at 4:05 PM, LoveGodsWord said:

2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-4

[1], Now we beseech you, brothers, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together to him,
[2], That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3], Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4], Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Are you reading the entire context?

 

For example:

2 Th 2:11  Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
2 Th 2:12  in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

On 6/24/2019 at 4:05 PM, LoveGodsWord said:

HEBREWS 6:4-8
[4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6], IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Also, why is Hebrews 6 speaking of regenerated (born again) believers? Why wouldn't it be speaking of Covenant persons, ya know like OT Israel, those which received the mark, sign, and seal of the OT Covenant but were not considered Israel (not all Israel is Israel)? Did they not partake of the OT Covenant and receive Covenant blessings though they themselves were not faithful? Likewise, the NT Covenant church consists of believers and unbelievers alike. Hebrews 6 is suggesting that a person can be illuminated by the Holy Spirit, that is, they can taste the fruits of the Holy Spirit but they themselves are not producing fruit because they weren't regenerated by the Holy Spirit. These very people can be leading a bible study or even be adamant today about Jesus but the true test of faith is perseverance. Confession/Repentance/Faith are fruits of the Holy Spirit, God is the cause.

 

It takes so much time to exegete the verses you put up so you'll have to excuse if members aren't tackling your verses which in large have already been addressed in the forum.

But to answer your questions:

1) No

2) Depends on your definition of salvation. For example, He who begins a good work will finish it. Salvation begins before the foundation of the earth with predestination/Election. Though the calling and regeneration as well as conversion, justification, and sanctification come in God's due timing does He lose anyone that He elects to salvation? Conversion is something not all believers actually experience because they were Covenant children brought up in the NT Covenant always believed as far back as they can remember and today remain in the faith. Some however fall away and that's where Hebrews 6 and other Scriptures are really relevant. Confession/Repentance and Faith/Justification are a double sided coin. That is, when one confesses their sins and repents they are turning away from their sin in a direction towards God in faith for the forgiveness of sins. Lastly, how consistent are you? Let's say an infant dies, is the infant saved or not saved? That is, if the child never confessed/repented and/or professed faith like an adult? Was predestination/Election enough for an Elect infant? If you say no then you render God's choosing a man impotent, and if you say yes until a time of accountability when a young person can choose other than, then you're rendering God impotent. Man in such theology is made more powerful than God, that is, man's will can stop God's will.

 

Consider the Golden Chain of Redemption which in large is not only addressing Sanctification but also Salvation from beginning to end:

Romans 8:28-30

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 

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34 minutes ago, William said:

And nice meeting you. Just wanted to say hello before responding.

Thanks brother William , nice to meet you as well 😊

34 minutes ago, William said:

Are you reading the entire context?

 

For example:

2 Th 2:11  Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
2 Th 2:12  in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 

Yes I believe so. 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-4 is the context which is written to BELIEVERS. Now the point of the OP here using these scriptures is only to show that...

 

1. The WARNING is to BELIEVERS v1

2. The WARNING is not to be shaken in mind and deceived v2-3

3. These events are to happen prior to the 2nd coming v3

4. There will be a FALLING AWAY of BELIEVERS v3

 

These are God's Word not mine whci specifically state all of the above and are written into the scriptures.

34 minutes ago, William said:

 

Also, what makes you think Hebrews 6 is speaking of regenerated (born again) believers? Why wouldn't it be speaking of Covenant persons, ya know like OT Israel, those which received the mark, sign, and seal of the OT Covenant but were not considered Israel (not all Israel is Israel) because of their unbelief? Did they not partake of the OT Covenant and receive Covenant blessings though themselves were not faithful? Likewise, the NT Covenant church consists of believers and unbelievers alike. Hebrews 6 is suggesting that a person can be illuminated by the Holy Spirit, that is, they can taste the fruits of the Holy Spirit but they themselves are not producing fruit because they weren't regenerated by the Holy Spirit. These very people can be leading a bible study or even be adamant today about Jesus but the true test of faith is perseverance. Confession/Repentance/Faith are fruits of the Holy Spirit, God is the cause.

 

Good question, Let's look at the scriptures in detail verse by verse and see if they are in reference to believers or unbelievers?

 

HEBREWS 6:4-8

[4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

[5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Who are we talking about here; BELIEVERS or UNBELIEVERS? The question your considering is; were these BELIEVERS and Born again christians. Lets look at the key points in these that describe who there people were from the scriptures...

 

1. They were once enlightened; v4

2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; v4

3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; v4

4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; v5

5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come v5

 

So reviewing the CONTEXT of these scriptures we don't really need to say much they speak for themselves. These people were BELIEVERS that departed from GOD and became "UNBELIEVERS" returning back to a life of sin. These people are BELIEVERS as shown in the CONTEXT of v4-5 which continues...

 

[6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Yep, BELIEVERS having fallen away from the HEAVENLY gift back into sin..

[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Yep thier end is to be burned does not sound like they will be going into God's Kingdom not having any REPENTANCE for sin (v6). These scripture are pretty rock solid I think and show that a BELIEVER can FALL AWAY back into SIN.

 

Hope this helps...

 

34 minutes ago, William said:

It takes so much time to exegete the verses you put up so you'll have to excuse if members aren't tackling your verses which in large have already been addressed in the forum.

Thanks but I do not see anywhere in this forum where these scriptures have been dealt with.

 

34 minutes ago, William said:

But to answer your questions:

1) No

Question 1. CAN WE FALL AWAY FROM BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING GOD'S WORD TO BECOME UNBELIVERS AND NO LONGER BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD?

Sorry I do not see this as an answer based on the scriptures. As for me I choose to believe God's Word as shown in the OP.

 

34 minutes ago, William said:

2) Depends on your definition of salvation. For example, He who begins a good work will finish it. Salvation begins before the foundation of the earth with predestination/Election. Though the calling and regeneration as well as conversion, justification, and sanctification come in God's due timing does He lose anyone that He elects to salvation? Conversion is something not all believers actually experience because they were Covenant children brought up in the NT Covenant always believed as far back as they can remember and today remain in the faith. Some however fall away and that's where Hebrews 6 and other Scriptures are really relevant. Confession/Repentance and Faith/Justification are a double sided coin. That is, when one confesses their sins and repents they are turning away from their sin in a direction towards God in faith for the forgiveness of sins. Lastly, how consistent are you? Let's say an infant dies, is the infant saved or not saved? That is, if the child never confessed/repented and/or professed faith like an adult? Was predestination/Election enough for an Elect infant? If you say no then you render God's choosing a man impotent, and if you say yes until a time of accountability when a young person can choose other than, then you're rendering God impotent. Man in such theology is made more powerful than God, that is, man's will can stop God's will.

 

Consider the Golden Chain of Redemption which in large is not only addressing Sanctification but also Salvation from beginning to end:

Romans 8:28-30

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 

 

I think the question is pretty clear hear which was..

 

2. ARE WE IN A SAVED STATE BEFORE GOD OR AN UNSAVED STATE BEFORE GOD IF WE ARE LIVING IN A LIFE OF KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN?

 

You did not answer it and you do not have to if you do not want to. Just let me know as I am happy to provide the scriptures. Thanks for sharing your thoughts though brother William.

 

God bless.

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41 minutes ago, LoveGodsWord said:

You did not answer it and you do not have to if you do not want to. Just let me know as I am happy to provide the scriptures. Thanks for sharing your thoughts though brother William.

Na.

 

41 minutes ago, LoveGodsWord said:

HEBREWS 6:4-8

[4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

[5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Who are we talking about here; BELIEVERS or UNBELIEVERS? The question your considering is; were these BELIEVERS and Born again christians. Lets look at the key points in these that describe who there people were from the scriptures...

 

1. They were once enlightened; v4

2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; v4

3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; v4

4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; v5

5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come v5

 

So reviewing the CONTEXT of these scriptures we don't really need to say much they speak for themselves. These people were BELIEVERS that departed from GOD and became "UNBELIEVERS" returning back to a life of sin. These people are BELIEVERS as shown in the CONTEXT of v4-5 which continues...

Just for FYI I see nothing in the verses you're providing that says these are believers.

 

What do these mean?

1) Illumination

2) Tasting of the heavenly gift

3) Participation of the Spirit

4) Tasting of the good word of God

5) Tasting of the power of the world to come

 

Do the above 5 equal believers? If one exhibits all the above then falls away at the first test of tribulation do you consider them Elect which are regenerated and now reprobate or were they always reprobate? The very list you make shows these are recipients of grace which being illuminated are able to perceive God's goodness. Is there not some "illumination" in the mind of the reprobate or unbelievers both in General (Romans 1) or Special revelation (Mark 4:17)?

 

 

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Continuing on in the chapter of 

2Th 2:13  But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 
2Th 2:14  Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 
2Th 2:15  Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 
2Th 2:16  Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 
2Th 2:17  Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work. 

 

Who is God speaking too but those He chose and has given everlasting consolation to. .

 

Not my  words those are the words of God 🙂

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5 minutes ago, Becky said:

Who is God speaking too but those He chose and has given everlasting consolation to. .

 

Performance based and works righteousness advocates?

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Grace alone 

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1 hour ago, LoveGodsWord said:

As for me I choose to believe God's Word as shown in the OP.

I hear that kind of thing a lot.

 

Ephesians 4:30

John 6:39

John 10:28–29b

Titus 3:5

 

How do you reconcile the contradictions? Do you just believe God's word as you shown in the OP?

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6 hours ago, LoveGodsWord said:

Hi Faber nice to meet you. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. For me though I choose to beleive God's Word as shown in the OP.

 I too believe God's word.

 Believers are sealed for the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30; cf. 1:13).

     1. BDAG (3rd Edition): to mark with a seal as a means of identification, mark, seal...so that the mark denoting ownership also carries w. it protection of the owner...This forms a basis for understanding the imagery which speaks of those who enter the Christian community as being sealed with or by the Holy Spirit Eph 1:13; cp. 4:30 (sphragizō, page 980, the underlined is mine).

 

Furthermore, the Holy Spirit is given as a down payment (arrabōn) to the believer.

 Ephesians 1:13-14

(13) When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him, you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

(14) He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory. (HCSB, the underlined is mine)

     1. NIDNTT makes it clear that the Holy Spirit is the "down-payment and guarantee" (arrabōn) that God will complete the work begun in Christ and through the Spirit (2 Cor. 1:22;5:5; Eph. 1:13 f.); the Spirit is the "first fruits" (aparchē) of God's harvest at the end of time (Rom. 8:23)" (3:701, Spirit, James Dunn).

     2. TDNT: The Spirit whom God has given them is for Christians the guarantee of their full future possession of salvation (1:475, arrabōn, Behm).

     3. William Mounce: Just as a down payment for a house today serves as a guarantee that the rest of the payment will come, so God sends his Holy Spirit into the hearts of believers as a deposit, guaranteeing that some day the full inheritance of salvation will be ours (2 Cor 1:22; 5:5; Eph. 1:14). All Christians should understand that the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Trinity, is living in them and is empowering them to exercise his gifts and to live for God (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Pledge, page 520).

 

God will complete the down payment He has placed in the believer. It is guaranteed

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9 hours ago, William said:

Na.

 

Just for FYI I see nothing in the verses you're providing that says these are believers.

 

What do these mean?

1) Illumination

2) Tasting of the heavenly gift

3) Participation of the Spirit

4) Tasting of the good word of God

5) Tasting of the power of the world to come

 

Do the above 5 equal believers? If one exhibits all the above then falls away at the first test of tribulation do you consider them Elect which are regenerated and now reprobate or were they always reprobate? The very list you make shows these are recipients of grace which being illuminated are able to perceive God's goodness. Is there not some "illumination" in the mind of the reprobate or unbelievers both in General (Romans 1) or Special revelation (Mark 4:17)?

 

 

Really? That is amazing. I guess sometimes people see only what they want to see.

 

Let's be honest here William.

 

HEBREWS 6:4-8

[4], For it is impossible for (1) those who were once enlightened, and (2) have tasted of the heavenly gift, and (3) were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

[5], And (4) have tasted the good word of God, and (5) the powers of the world to come,
 

Is the above talking about BELIEVERS or UNBELIEVERS?

 

Do the scriptures above say of those who fell away from believing and following God's Word that...

 

1. They were once enlightened; v4

2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; v4

3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; v4

4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; v5

5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come v5

 

So reviewing the CONTEXT of these scriptures we don't really need to say much they speak for themselves. These people were BELIEVERS that departed from GOD and became "UNBELIEVERS" returning back to a life of sin. These people are BELIEVERS as shown in the CONTEXT of v4-5 which continues. How you could say you cannot see it would only be to deny God's Word because you do not want to see what the scriptures plainly reveal.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, William said:

I hear that kind of thing a lot.

 

Ephesians 4:30

EPHESIANS 4:30 [30], And GRIEVE NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD, in whom ye were SEALED TO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.
 

Let's start with the second part of the scripture "SEALED TO THE DAY OF REDEMTION" How are believers sealed to the day of redemption? Then we will move back to the first part of the scripture which is the "PRIMARY CONTEXT" which is a WARNING not to GRIEVE God's Spirit and look at how we GREIVE God's Spirit and what is the consequence of GRIEVING or QUENCHING God's Spirit.

 

v30 SEALED TO THE DAY OF REDEMTION

 

Note; the Greek word used in this warning for sealed is σφραγίζω; sphragizō to stamp as a private mark for security or preservation. It does not mean that God's Spirit cannot leave or depart us. Hence the WARNING not to GRIEVE the Holy Spirit. So the meaning applied here is that the Holy Spirit is given to BELIEVERS as a sign of preservation or mark in the "present tense". So if we are believing and following God's Word in the "present tense" we are sealed with God's Spirit to the day of redemption.

 

For me I believe that "THE DAY OF REDEMPTION" has two applications showing that the BELIEVER is SEALED TO  (1) to the cross and the other (2) to the 2nd coming. So SEALED being that the Holy Spirit SEALS the BELIEVER to the day of REDEMPTION or we are preserved because of (TO/UNTO/FOR) the DAY OF REDEMPTION. Another words we have God's MARK/SEAL/PRESERVATION/SEAL because of or for/to/unto the day of redemption.

 

The Greek word for THE DAY OF REDEMPTION is ἀπολύτρωσις; apolutrōsis which means; the act of ransom in full or Christian salvation and deliverance.

This has reference to the cross and the ransom paid at the cross at Calvery by JESUS for our sins. It also has reference to the 2nd coming but let's focus on the literal Greek meaning here for minuete as we cannot have the one without the other. The Greek word REDEMTION used here means; the act of ransom in full or Christian salvation and deliverance.

The meaning here has implication that BELIEVERS are SEALED with God's SPIRIT not because of anything we have done, but because of the revelation of God's LOVE revealed at the day of redemption which is the act of ransom in full or Christian salvation and deliverance where God sent His only son to die the death that we deserve so that whosoever BELIEVES on His should not perish but have everylasting life *JOHN 3:16.

An application of the scriptures here meaning that the Holy Spirit seals us to/for/unto the DAY OF REDEMPTION where JESUS paid the ransom for our sins; paid price of our sins and to die the death that we deserve to die so that we can be reconciled to God not to die for our sins; we have been redeemed from our sins; saved from our sins through FAITH to be called the sons and daughters of God.

The application of the scriptures here meaning that the HOLY SPIRIT leads BELIEVERS and SEALS them to the cross of JESUS so that whosever believes in the gift of God's dear son should not perish but have eternal life *JOHN 3:16. The result leads to the application of the day of redemption that all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word receive at the 2nd coming. The scripture SEALED to the day of redemption does not day a BELIEVER can now become an "UNBELIEVER" and CONTINUE in a life of KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN and still be saved. This is why the PRIMARY CONTEXT of the scripture here is "GRIEVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF GOD" which is what we will discuss now.

 

...............
 

HOW DO WE GRIEVE THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD?

 

We GRIEVE God's SPIRIT by SIN (UNBELIEF and BREAKING GOD'S COMMANDMENTS)

EPHESIANS 4:30 [30], And GRIEVE NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT of God, whereby you are sealed to the day of redemption.

HEBREWS 3:17 [17], BUT WHOM WAS HE GRIEVED FORTY YEARS? WAS IT NOT WITH THEM THAT HAD SINNED, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness?

PSALMS 95:10-11 [10], Forty years long was I GRIEVED with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: [11], To whom I swore in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

HEBREWS 3:10-11; 17-19 [10], Why I was GRIEVED with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [11], So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.

[17], BUT WHOM WAS HE GRIEVED FORTY YEARS? WAS IT NOT WITH THEM THAT HAD SINNED, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness? [18], And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? [19], So we see that they could not enter in because of UNBELIEF.

PSALMS 119:158 [158], I BEHELD THE TRANSGRESSORS AND WAS GRIEVED; because they kept not your word.

...............

 

WE ARE WARNED NOT TO GRIEVE AND QUENCH (PUT OUT) THE HOLY SPIRIT BECAUSE HE WILL LEAVE US?

 

EPHESIANS 4:30 And GRIEVE NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT, whereby ye are sealed to/untofor the day of redemption (emphasis mine).

We are warned again in...

1. THESSALONIANS 5:19 [19], QUENCH NOT THE SPIRIT OF GOD

Let's have a look at the Greek word meanings for both?

1. The Greek word used for GRIEVE is λυπέω; lupeō and means to; to distress ; reflexively or passively to be sad: - cause grief, grieve, be in heaviness, (be) sorrow (-ful), be (make) sorry.

Why are we warned not to Grieve the Holy Spirit? 1 THESSALONIANS 5:19 states it more clearly when it says QUENCH NOT THE SPIRIT OF GOD. You may want to go back brother and look at your interpretation of EPHESIANS 4:30. This scripture is NOT SAYING that once we receive God's Spirit it cannot leave us as you have interpreted these scriptures otherwise PAUL would not say QUENCH NOT THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

2. The Greek word used here for QUENCH NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD is σβέννυμι; sbennumi from G4570 and is a verb meaning to put out or extinguish

NOTE: These scripture references here are WARNINGS to the BELIEVERS and FOLLOWERS of God's Word who have not grieved the Holy Spirit. The Greek words used here also for quench not the Spirit is σβέννυμι; sbennumi (G4570) which is a verb and means to extinguish (literally or figuratively): - go out, quench. Ephesians 4:30 tells us that we should not grieve the Spirit. Note also the CONTEXT of EPHESIANS 4:30. We grieve or quench the Spirit by living like the pagans by not believing and following God's Word *EPHESIANS 4:17-19, by lying *EPHESIANS 4:25, by being angry *EPHESIANS 4:26-27, by stealing *EPHESIANS 4:28, by cursing *EPHESIANS 4:29, by being bitter *EPHESIANS 4:31, by being unforgiving *EPHESIANS 4:32, and by being sexually immoral *EPHESIANS 5:3-5. To grieve the Spirit is to act out in a sinful manner, whether it is in thought only or in both thought and deed and not believing and following God. These WARNINGS are for BELIEVERS of God's WORD not to put out; quench or grieve the Holy Spirit!

Those who do not believe and follow God's Word grieve and quench the Holy Spirit and are unbelievers who do not believe and follow God's Word..

HEBREWS 3:10 Why I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

HEBREWS 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness?

If we GRIEVE or QUENCH God's Spirit we can be come God's enemy...

ISAIAH 63:10 But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit; therefore he turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them.

ACTS 7:51 You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.

.............

REPENTANCE *MATTHEW 3:2; MATTHEW 4:17; LUKE 13:3-5; ACTS 2:38; ACTS 3:19; ACTS 8:32; PROVERBS 28:9-13, CONFESSION *1 JOHN 1:9; PROVERBS 28:13 OF SIN *JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4 and  FAITH *JOHN 3:14-21 in God's promises *2 PETER 1:4 in the NEW COVENANT are all requirement for salvation.Those who follow God do not make a practice sin and those who continue in SIN do not know God *1 JOHN 3:9; 1 JOHN 2:1-4 and need to be BORN AGAIN. If the HOLY SPIRIT cannot come and go why are we warned not to QUENCH (put out) or GRIEVE the HOLY SPIRIT *EPHESIANS 4:30; PSALMS 51:10-13? We GRIEVE God's SPIRIT by SIN *GENESIS 6:5-6; PSALMS 119:158 and not BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD *PSALMS 95:10-11; HEBREWS 3:10-11; HEBREWS 3:17-19.

It is ONLY those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD to the END that will be saved *JOHN 8:31-36; MATTHEW 24:13; MARK 13:13; HEBREWS 3:13-14; HEBREWS 3:6; COLOSSIANS 1:12-14; 23; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 6:4-8; MATTHEW 13:18-23.

According to the scriptures if we are not CONTINUING to BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD to the END we can QUENCH (put out) and GRIEVE God's Spirit and we depart from the faith *2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3; 1 TIMOTHY 4:1.

All these WARNINGS from God's WORD are for BELIEVERS brother. I suggest you read the OP. These scriptures are sent in love and as a help.

Something to consider prayerfully...

GENESIS 6:5-7 [5], And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY IMAGINATION OF THE THOUGHTS OF HIS HEART was only EVIL CONTINUALLY. [6], And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and IT GRIEVED HIM AT HIS HEART. [7], And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth

So it was in the days of Noah so shall it be in the coming of the Son of man..

The application of EPHESIANS 4:30 is always to BELIEVERS in the "present tense" it does not say believers cannot fall away from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD. It does not say we cannot quench God's Spirit so that it departs from us. God's Spirit is only given to all those who are BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD in the "present tense". Those who QUENCH (put out) or GRIEVE God's Spirit through sin and unbelief no longer have God's presence unless they repent and turn back to God through faith to become a BELIEVER and FOLLOWER again (present tense).

 

8 hours ago, William said:

John 6:39

John 10:28–29b

Titus 3:5

 

How do you reconcile the contradictions? Do you just believe God's word as you shown in the OP? 

 

Quite easily brother as there are no contradictions. God's Word does not have any contradictions. If you feel that there is contradictions in what you believe than it should be a WARNING to you that maybe your interpretation of the scriptures is in error as God's Word does not condradict itself. Let's look at the rest of the scriptures you have posted in light of everything that has been posted above in this thread with the surrounding context added...

 

Let me know if I am wrong but are you providing these scriptures to argue that someone who believed yesterday but no longer believes today and is continuing in known unerpentant sin is in a saved state before God? If that is the case and of the teaching of once saved always saved then it condradict the scriptures already provided to you of beleivers falling away from the truth of God's Word in *HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-31 and the many others (see OP). You would have a problem.Yet none of these scriptures you have provided below condradicts any of the warning scriptures provided to you in the OP which show that it is possible to lose salvation if we do not endure temptation to the end believing and following God's Word. Anyhow let's look at the scripture you have provided here out of interest.

 

JOHN 6:33-40,  

33, For the bread of God is he which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world.
34, Then said they to him, Lord, ever more give us this bread.
35, And Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life: he that comes to me shall never hunger; and he that believes on me shall never thirst.
36, But I said to you, That you also have seen me, and believe not.
37, All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out.
38, For I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39, And this is the Father's will which has sent me, that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40, And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

Note here...

 

1. Jesus is stating that he is the bread of life v33-35

2. Some of those who spoke with him BELIEVED NOT v36

3. He who the father gives Jesus shall come to Jesus (the Word) and Jesus will not cast him out.v37

4. Those who the father has given Jesus he will lose nothing but will raise him up at the last day. v39

5. It is those who see Jesus and beleives on him (the Word) that have everlasting life and Jesus will raise him up at the last day. v40

 

I am sure you will agree on the above are all in the scriptures provided? So the question here is WHO are those that the father give to JESUS? The answer to this question is provided in v40

This is the will of him that sent me (the Father who draws us to JESUS) that everyone that sees the Son and BELIEVES on Him (the Word) may have everylasting life and will be raised again in the last day.

 

Note the scriptures here do not say that we can believe and follow God yesterday and FALL AWAY from God's Word to become "UNBELIEVERS" and return back to a life of sin today and still receive everlasting life. Why because the promise

here is to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD in the "PRESENT TENSE" If you believed and followed God's WORD yesterday and today no longer believe and follow God's WORD than you have become an "UNBELIEVER" and God's

promises no longer apply to you because you are no longer believing and following God's Word. That is why there is so many WARNINGS in the scriptures not to fall away from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's Word. *2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-4;

HEBREWS 3:12; HEBREWS 6:4-8; 2 PETER 2:20-22; HEBREWS 10:26-31; GALATIANS 1:6; HEBREWS 2:1-3; HEBREWS 10:35-38; JOHN 8:31-36 etc etc.. As you can see the scriptures you have provided here are in complete harmony with everything shared with you brother in this thread. Yet the scriptures provided to you contradict your interpretation of the very scriptures you have provided.

 

..................

 

JOHN 10:24-29,   

24, Then came the Jews round about him, and said to him, How long do you make us to doubt? If you be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25, Jesus answered them, I told you, and you believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26, But you believe not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you.
27, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28, And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29, My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 

Note here...

 

1. Those questioning Jesus as to if he is the Christ v24

2. Jesus told them and they believed not v25

3. Those who believe not are not God's Sheep v26

4 God Sheep are those who Hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him v27

5. It is those who hear God Voice and follow him that God gives eternal life v28

6. It is those who hear Gods Voice and follow him that no man can pluck out of His (Jesus) hand v29


I am sure you will agree on the above are all in the scriptures provided? So the question here is WHO are those that the father give to JESUS?

The answer to this question is provided in v25-29. Those who BELIEVE NOT are not God's Sheep. Those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD "PRESENT TENSE" are God's Sheep and it is to

those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD in the present tense that God's promises are for.

 

Note once again the scriptures here do not say that we can believe and follow God yesterday and FALL AWAY from God's Word to become "UNBELIEVERS" and return back to a life of sin today and still receive everlasting life. Why because the promise

here is to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD in the "PRESENT TENSE" If you believed and followed God's WORD yesterday and today no longer believe and follow God's WORD than you have become an "UNBELIEVER" and God's

promises no longer apply to you because you are no longer believing and following God's Word. That is why there is so many WARNINGS in the scriptures not to fall away from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's Word. *2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-4;

HEBREWS 3:12; HEBREWS 6:4-8; 2 PETER 2:20-22; HEBREWS 10:26-31; GALATIANS 1:6; HEBREWS 2:1-3; HEBREWS 10:35-38; JOHN 8:31-36 etc etc.. As you can see the scriptures you have provided here are in complete harmony with everything shared with you brother in this thread. Yet the scriptures provided to you contradict your interpretation of the very scriptures you have provided.

 

..................

 

TITUS 3:3-7

3, For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4, But after that the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6, Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior;
7, That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

Note here...

 

1. It is the past life of believers that was a life of sin v3

2. We are not saved by works but by God's mercy Jesus saves us washing and renewing us through His Spirit v5

3. We are forgiven by His Grace and made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

Note once again the scriptures here do not say that we can believe and follow God yesterday and FALL AWAY from God's Word to become "UNBELIEVERS" and return back to a life of sin today and still receive everlasting life. Why because the promise

here is to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD in the "PRESENT TENSE" We are saved by grace through faith (BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING GOD'S WORD) and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of WORKS lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8.

If you believed and followed God's WORD yesterday and today no longer believe and follow God's WORD than you have become an "UNBELIEVER" and God's promises no longer apply to you because you are no longer believing and following God's Word. That is why there is so many WARNINGS in the scriptures not to fall away from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's Word. *2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-4; HEBREWS 3:12; HEBREWS 6:4-8; 2 PETER 2:20-22; HEBREWS 10:26-31; GALATIANS 1:6; HEBREWS 2:1-3; HEBREWS 10:35-38; JOHN 8:31-36 etc etc.. As you can see the scriptures you have provided here are in complete harmony with everything shared with you brother in this thread. Yet the scriptures provided to you contradict your interpretation of the very scriptures you have provided.

 

Hope this helps.

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8 hours ago, Faber said:

 I too believe God's word.

 Believers are sealed for the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30; cf. 1:13).

     1. BDAG (3rd Edition): to mark with a seal as a means of identification, mark, seal...so that the mark denoting ownership also carries w. it protection of the owner...This forms a basis for understanding the imagery which speaks of those who enter the Christian community as being sealed with or by the Holy Spirit Eph 1:13; cp. 4:30 (sphragizō, page 980, the underlined is mine).

 

Furthermore, the Holy Spirit is given as a down payment (arrabōn) to the believer.

 Ephesians 1:13-14

(13) When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him, you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

(14) He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory. (HCSB, the underlined is mine)

     1. NIDNTT makes it clear that the Holy Spirit is the "down-payment and guarantee" (arrabōn) that God will complete the work begun in Christ and through the Spirit (2 Cor. 1:22;5:5Eph. 1:13 f.); the Spirit is the "first fruits" (aparchē) of God's harvest at the end of time (Rom. 8:23)" (3:701, Spirit, James Dunn).

     2. TDNT: The Spirit whom God has given them is for Christians the guarantee of their full future possession of salvation (1:475, arrabōn, Behm).

     3. William Mounce: Just as a down payment for a house today serves as a guarantee that the rest of the payment will come, so God sends his Holy Spirit into the hearts of believers as a deposit, guaranteeing that some day the full inheritance of salvation will be ours (2 Cor 1:225:5Eph. 1:14). All Christians should understand that the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Trinity, is living in them and is empowering them to exercise his gifts and to live for God (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Pledge, page 520).

 

God will complete the down payment He has placed in the believer. It is guaranteed

Nothing you have provided here brorther says a believer cannot fall away to become an unbeliever and back into a life of sin as shown in the scriptures in the OP. Please refer to the previous posts to William.

 

God bless.

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1 hour ago, LoveGodsWord said:

Nothing you have provided here brorther says a believer cannot fall away to become an unbeliever and back into a life of sin as shown in the scriptures in the OP. Please refer to the previous posts to William.

 

God bless.

 

 It is very clear what I originally posted. Here it is again in shorter form:

 

 Once a person has been given Holy Spirit, He "is for Christians the guarantee of their full future possession of salvation" (see TDNT above).

 

 If a Christian can lose their salvation as you are asserting then the Holy Spirit would not be given as a down payment. But the Bible says that He is. Thus those who insist that salvation can be lost attack the Holy Spirit.

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, Faber said:

 

 It is very clear what I originally posted. Here it is again in shorter form:

 

 Once a person has been given Holy Spirit, He "is for Christians the guarantee of their full future possession of salvation" (see TDNT above).

 

 If a Christian can lose their salvation as you are asserting then the Holy Spirit would not be given as a down payment. But the Bible says that He is. Thus those who insist that salvation can be lost attack the Holy Spirit.

Yes I heard you the first time. God's Word does not teach once saved awlays saved. There is no such thing as shown in the scriptures in the OP. Thanks for sharing your thoughts though.

Edited by LoveGodsWord

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What are the sins or the amount of sins that must take place that determine whether or not God is chastising His believers (Hebrews 12:5-6) or according to what you believe He totally disowns them?

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@LoveGodsWord are you sinless? 

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8 hours ago, LoveGodsWord said:

Quite easily brother as there are no contradictions. God's Word does not have any contradictions. If you feel that there is contradictions in what you believe than it should be a WARNING to you that maybe your interpretation of the scriptures is in error as God's Word does not condradict itself. Let's look at the rest of the scriptures you have posted in light of everything that has been posted above in this thread with the surrounding context added...

This is starting to grow a little tiring.

 

For example, you're suggesting that a believer does not have eternal security then you suggest that it is my interpretation that contradicts and proceed to warn me that my interpretation is in error. Why don't you do something about that giant plank in your eye?

 

6 hours ago, LoveGodsWord said:

Yes I heard you the first time. God's Word does not teach once saved awlays saved. There is no such thing as shown in the scriptures in the OP. Thanks for sharing your thoughts though.

Doesn't seem like you understand what you're hearing. I haven't witnessed anyone in this thread teach OSAS but OSAS does convey eternal security as does Perseverance of the Saints.

 

8 hours ago, LoveGodsWord said:

JOHN 10:24-29,   

24, Then came the Jews round about him, and said to him, How long do you make us to doubt? If you be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25, Jesus answered them, I told you, and you believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26, But you believe not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you.
27, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28, And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29, My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 

Note here...

 

1. Those questioning Jesus as to if he is the Christ v24

2. Jesus told them and they believed not v25

3. Those who believe not are not God's Sheep v26

4 God Sheep are those who Hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him v27

5. It is those who hear God Voice and follow him that God gives eternal life v28

6. It is those who hear Gods Voice and follow him that no man can pluck out of His (Jesus) hand v29


I am sure you will agree on the above are all in the scriptures provided? So the question here is WHO are those that the father give to JESUS?

The answer to this question is provided in v25-29. Those who BELIEVE NOT are not God's Sheep. Those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD "PRESENT TENSE" are God's Sheep and it is to

those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD in the present tense that God's promises are for.

Wrong, John 10:26 says you do not believe BECAUSE you're not Jesus' sheep and not the other way around. The Elect are not made Jesus' sheep because of belief but because they were Elect. The ones that believe are Jesus' as evidenced by faith as Christ's sheep.

 

What is the subtle difference between what you're saying and what I am saying? Throughout your entire rant you continually make the same mistake over and over again. You point to the evidence and make it a cause. For example, pointing to the very act of belief and think someone is saved by the act of belief when belief is evidence of salvation. One is not made into Jesus' sheep by their act of belief but believes because they are Jesus' sheep. Read John 10:26 more closely and then what follows. You do not believe BECAUSE you're not Jesus' sheep is not the same as You are not Jesus sheep BECAUSE you do not believe.

 

8 hours ago, LoveGodsWord said:

Note once again the scriptures here do not say that we can believe and follow God yesterday and FALL AWAY from God's Word to become "UNBELIEVERS" and return back to a life of sin today and still receive everlasting life.

The very things you state miss the mark about what is being said. It is your subtle commentary which is wrong. The Scriptures you quoted in John 10 do not say we can believe today and become Elect yesterday as Elections are based on some foreseeable future belief by the Father.

 

You stated "So the question here is WHO are those that the father give to JESUS?" Then you state, "Those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD "PRESENT TENSE" are God's Sheep and it is to those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD in the present tense that God's promises are for."

 

Now who are those that the Father gives to Jesus?

8 hours ago, LoveGodsWord said:

JOHN 6:33-40,  

33, For the bread of God is he which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world.
34, Then said they to him, Lord, ever more give us this bread.
35, And Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life: he that comes to me shall never hunger; and he that believes on me shall never thirst.
36, But I said to you, That you also have seen me, and believe not.
37, All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out.
38, For I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39, And this is the Father's will which has sent me, that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40, And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You quoted the above but John 6:44 actually answers the very question you asked and then maligned with your answer.

 

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

8 hours ago, LoveGodsWord said:

Let me know if I am wrong but are you providing these scriptures to argue that someone who believed yesterday but no longer believes today and is continuing in known unerpentant sin is in a saved state before God?

Yes you are wrong because again you're pointing to the act of man whether an act of repentance or faith as a condition or works of man which is the "cause" of salvation. Rather God provides the very conditions which are necessary for salvation by Grace. Both Confession/Repentance and Faith are of a double sided coin as I touched upon before but you ignored. The act of faith does not save us but it is the object of faith that saves us. The act of faith does not declare us righteous but the object of faith is an alien righteousness imputed us.

 

The Elect which are Inwardly Called and Regenerated will Confess/Repent and turn to God in faith.

 

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out (John 6:37).

This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day (John 6:39).

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:44).

And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father” (John 6:65).

Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” (John 6:70).

 

It is clearly seen that those who will be raised up at the last day—all true believers—are given to Christ by the Father. And only those whom the Father gives to Christ can come to Him. Salvation lies entirely in the hands of the Father. He it is who gives them to Jesus to be saved. … This is nothing else than unconditional election  (Palmer, Five Points of Calvinism, 27).

 

It is tantamount to blasphemy for anyone to argue that man is capable, of his own free will, to make a decision for Christ, when the Son of God says in words that cannot be misunderstood, “No man can come to me, except the Father … draw him” (Spencer, TULIP, 42).

 

There is a subtle distinction between yours and other members of this board including mine. For example,

 

John 5:39-40 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

Acts 17:11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

 

While both speak of examining the Scriptures one group was condemned and the other complimented. One group made salvation all about them, that is, "I, me, and myself", the very acts of what they've done rather than Christ alone.

 

There is no argument on a point you seemingly think others here are making in that a saved person will confess and repent of their sins turning towards God through faith. However, the subtle difference between you and others here is that we do not believe the act of a person is what saves them nor that their performance is the basis of salvation.
 

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13 minutes ago, William said:

This is starting to grow a little tiring.

 

For example, you're suggesting that a believer does not have eternal security then you suggest that it is my interpretation that contradicts and precede to warn me that my interpretation is in error. Why don't you do something about that giant plank in your eye?

 

Doesn't seem like you understand what you're hearing. I haven't witnessed anyone in this thread teach OSAS but OSAS does convey eternal security as does Perseverance of the Saints.

 

Wrong, John 10:26 says you do not believe BECAUSE you're not Jesus' sheep and not the other way around. The Elect are not made Jesus' sheep because of belief but because they were Elect. The ones that believe are Jesus' as evidenced by faith to be Christ's sheep.

 

What is the subtle difference between what you're saying and what I am saying? Throughout your entire rant you continually make the same mistake over and over again. You point to the evidence and make it a cause. For example, pointing to the very act of belief and think someone is saved by the act of belief when belief is evidence of salvation. One is not made into Jesus' sheep by their act of belief but believes because they are Jesus' sheep. Read John 10:26 more closely and then what follows. You do not believe BECAUSE you're not Jesus' sheep is not the same as You are not Jesus sheep BECAUSE you do not believe.

 

The very things you state miss the mark about what is being said. It is your subtle commentary which is wrong. The Scriptures you quoted in John 10 do not say we can believe today and become Elect yesterday as Elections are based on some foreseeable future belief by the Father.

 

You stated "So the question here is WHO are those that the father give to JESUS?" Then you state, "Those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD "PRESENT TENSE" are God's Sheep and it is to those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD in the present tense that God's promises are for."

 

Now who are those that the Father gives to Jesus?

You quoted the above but John 6:44 actually answers the very question you asked and then maligned with your answer.

 

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Yes you are wrong because again you're pointing to the act of man whether an act of repentance or faith as a condition or works of man which is the "cause" of salvation. Rather God provides the very conditions which are necessary for salvation by Grace. Both Confession/Repentance and Faith are of a double sided coin as I touched upon before but you ignored. The act of faith does not save us but it is the object of faith that saves us. The act of faith does not declare us righteous but the object of faith is an alien righteousness imputed us.

 

The Elect which are Inwardly Called and Regenerated will Confess/Repent and turn to God in faith.

 

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out (John 6:37).

This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day (John 6:39).

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:44).

And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father” (John 6:65).

Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” (John 6:70).

 

It is clearly seen that those who will be raised up at the last day—all true believers—are given to Christ by the Father. And only those whom the Father gives to Christ can come to Him. Salvation lies entirely in the hands of the Father. He it is who gives them to Jesus to be saved. … This is nothing else than unconditional election  (Palmer, Five Points of Calvinism, 27).

 

It is tantamount to blasphemy for anyone to argue that man is capable, of his own free will, to make a decision for Christ, when the Son of God says in words that cannot be misunderstood, “No man can come to me, except the Father … draw him” (Spencer, TULIP, 42).

 

There is a subtle distinction between yours and other members of this board including mine. For example,

 

John 5:39-40 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

Acts 17:11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

 

While both speak of examining the Scriptures one group was condemned and the other complimented. One group made salvation all about them, that is, "I, me, and myself", the very acts of what they've done rather than Christ alone.

 

There is no argument on a point you seemingly think others here are making in that a saved person will confess and repent of their sins turning towards God through faith. However, the subtle difference between you and others here is that we do not believe the act of a person is what saves them nor that their performance is the basis of salvation.
 

 

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Love Gods Word,  Its so important a person can be sure of what they believe, but its also a person be willing to listen to those who think differently, just to make 100% sure that there has been no mistake in what they believe. I do wonder why you brought up this controversial subject in a Calvinistic foorum, knowing few if any hold the position of  "falling from grace". I sincerely hope its not to bring disharmony, confusion, or dissention. That would be unfruitful and yes a sinful motive. I   sincerely pray your motive is pure. 

 

I have listened to so many KJV only people that refuse to see they just might be wrong. No matter what true evidence is presented the KJV Only people stand ignorantly in the false grounds they have twisted the facts. 

 

IN CF we have beat this topic to a bloody death. I personally have debated those who do not believe OSAS many times in my ministry. Generally its been Assembly of God fokes that hold fast and cling to a person can walk away from Gods holding power. John 10:28-30 clearly proves that if a person is a true FOLLOWER of Jesus Christ, a genuine BORN AGAIn person is eternal secure in their Salvation as we are being kept securely in the Fathers hand.

 

IMO you have made the mistake of disbelieving what Jesus Himself has said. I know this may seem simple and child like faith in trusting what Jesu has told us, but Jesus told us we must come to Him in child like faith. People who make to choice to reject Jesus Christs words and deny the truth of what Jesus said do so in serious error.

 

I am completely unwilling to dialogue or debate this any further as its a hopeless situation do do so. You have made up your mind and there is nothing anyone here can say to rightly inform you from Scripture of your taken texts out of contexts.

 

Now if you wish to dialogue about anything else that builds a common bound in Jesus Christ I am here to lift up our brotherhood in Jesus Christ.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Faber said:

What are the sins or the amount of sins that must take place that determine whether or not God is chastising His believers (Hebrews 12:5-6) or according to what you believe He totally disowns them?

Hello Faber, what is sin and is somene who professes to be a Christian in a saved state before God or an unsavedf state before God? What do you thought 1 JOHN 2:1-4 and 1 JOHN 3:3-10 mean as well as JAMES 4:17; ACTS 17:30-31 and JOHN 8:31-36. JESUS came to save us from sin not to continue in it.

 

Edited by LoveGodsWord

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Love Gods Word,  Its so important a person can be sure of what they believe, but its also a person be willing to listen to those who think differently, just to make 100% sure that there has been no mistake in what they believe. I do wonder why you brought up this controversial subject in a Calvinistic foorum, knowing few if any hold the position of  "falling from grace". I sincerely hope its not to bring disharmony, confusion, or dissention. That would be unfruitful and yes a sinful motive. I   sincerely pray your motive is pure. 

 

I have listened to so many KJV only people that refuse to see they just might be wrong. No matter what true evidence is presented the KJV Only people stand ignorantly in the false grounds they have twisted the facts. 

 

IN CF we have beat this topic to a bloody death. I personally have debated those who do not believe OSAS many times in my ministry. Generally its been Assembly of God fokes that hold fast and cling to a person can walk away from Gods holding power. John 10:28-30 clearly proves that if a person is a true FOLLOWER of Jesus Christ, a genuine BORN AGAIn person is eternal secure in their Salvation as we are being kept securely in the Fathers hand.

 

IMO you have made the mistake of disbelieving what Jesus Himself has said. I know this may seem simple and child like faith in trusting what Jesu has told us, but Jesus told us we must come to Him in child like faith. People who make to choice to reject Jesus Christs words and deny the truth of what Jesus said do so in serious error.

 

I am completely unwilling to dialogue or debate this any further as its a hopeless situation do do so. You have made up your mind and there is nothing anyone here can say to rightly inform you from Scripture of your taken texts out of contexts.

 

Now if you wish to dialogue about anything else that builds a common bound in Jesus Christ I am here to lift up our brotherhood in Jesus Christ.

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