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William

Does the Bible Say True Christians Never Sin?

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Jason76

 

1 John 3:9 says that anyone who is "born of God" doesn't make a practice of sinning. If this verse is taken out of context to mean that a saint, IOW, one who has been "born of God" will not/cannot sin again, then why is means of forgiveness for the same spoken of earlier in the same Epistle (1 John 1:9). Why is our "Advocate" spoken of 1 John 2:1-2? If we cannot sin again once we are "born of God", what need have the saints of an Advocate at that point?

 

Do you believe that you are "born of God"? If so, have you sinned since then?

 

The whole Bible has to be taken into consideration. One verse cannot be taken out of context. Note, I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I have to insist the Bible has no mention of sin being a practice, but rather an action. In other words, to quote William on here, the Bible says that if one sin is broken, then they're all broken.

 

What people are trying to argue falsely is this idea that Christians sin occasionally, but are forgiven, even before actual forgiveness. On the other hand, proponents of free-will: Catholics, Pentecostals, and Methodists would argue that a person is dirty until actual forgiveness.

 

Next, the proponents of eternal security will argue that they were forgiven, past tense, but the Bible taken as a whole doesn't back up that claim, once you examine one verse in light of the other ones.

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David Lee
The whole Bible has to be taken into consideration. One verse cannot be taken out of context.

 

Which is the very point I was attempting to make in my last post.

 

Note, I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I have to insist the Bible has no mention of sin being a practice, but rather an action.

 

But that's not true Jason. The verse you posited for us, 1 John 3:9, speaks of this very thing.

9 No one born of God makes a
practice
/ (ποιέω [poieo]) of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. ~1 John 3

poieo (ποιέω, 4160), “to do, make,” is used of spending a time or tarrying, in a place, Acts 15:33; 20:3; in 2 Cor. 11:25 it is rendered “I have been (a night and a day)”; a preferable translation is “I have spent,” as in Jas. 4:13, “spend a year” (RV). So in Matt. 20:12. Cf., the English idiom “did one hour”; in Rev. 13:5 “continue” is perhaps the best rendering. ~Vines Complete Expository Dictionary of OT and NT Words

 

Taken out of the context of the rest of the Bible, part of 1 John 3:9 can be made to say what your presupposition requires of it, but the entire verse, if understood in such a manner, says FAR more than you want it to.

 

Perhaps the two commandments that best summerize what it means to be truly righteous and holy before God are these:

YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ ~Matthew 22:37

‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ ~Matthew 22:39

If what you mean by those who are "in a state of Grace" is that they are sinless/righteous/holy, then Matthew 22:37 and Matthew 22:39 would necessarily be true of them, at least in that moment. You do not need to reply to this, just consider it for yourself, have you ever, EVEN ONCE, "loved the Lord with ALL of your heart, and with ALL of your soul, and with ALL of your mind, and loved your neighbor as yourself"? Has anyone??

 

Yours in Christ,

David

 

 

 

 

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Jason76
You do not need to reply to this, just consider it for yourself, have you ever, EVEN ONCE, "loved the Lord with ALL of your heart, and with ALL of your soul, and with ALL of your mind, and loved your neighbor as yourself"? Has anyone??

 

Not to sound rude, but I have to say that someone walking in the light will indeed love God with all that power, or at least be approaching that mode. However, someone with unrepented mortal sin cannot even approach this ideal.

 

poieo (ποιέω, 4160), “to do, make,” is used of spending a time or tarrying, in a place, Acts 15:33; 20:3; in 2 Cor. 11:25 it is rendered “I have been (a night and a day)”; a preferable translation is “I have spent,” as in Jas. 4:13, “spend a year” (RV). So in Matt. 20:12. Cf., the English idiom “did one hour”; in Rev. 13:5 “continue” is perhaps the best rendering. ~Vines Complete Expository Dictionary of OT and NT Words

 

Perhaps the practice of sinning, which you say that it says, is the same as mortally sinning.

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David Lee

"Approaching" perfection as understood from our fallen, human POV, and actually being perfect/holy/righteous as God is, are hardly the same things Jason (Matthew 5:48; James 2:10-11). If you believe that you have truly obeyed Matt 22:37-39, then you are hiding the fact from us that you are actually Jesus Christ Himself (because, so far, no one else ever has). Are you Jesus? :)

 

Also, on the question of mortal sin, you mentioned in a previous thread that mortal sin is best defined as grievous, and that St. Paul has given us a pretty good list to determine the difference between the RCC's idea of "mortal" and "venial" sins. The problem with that formula is that our progenitor's "mortal sin" was taking a bite out of an apple. I don't see that one in St. Paul's list, and if taking a bite out of an apple is "mortal", and is so bad that it caused the spiritual death of the entire human race, what lesser sins (than taking a bite out of an apple) can you come up with to list as "venial"?

 

Thanks!

 

--David

p.s. - you have been neither "rude" nor "arrogant". We're just are having a discussion. You have your opinion and I respect that, and just because you don't believe what I do (at least for now ;)) doesn't make you rude.

 

 

 

 

 

"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on

our behalf, so that we might become the

righteousness of God in Him"

2 Cor 5:21

 

Edited by David Lee

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Jester85

Being a "true Christian" is not about never sinning. It is about trusting that your sins and imperfections are forgiven through placing your faith in Jesus Christ.

 

If you had to be perfect to be a true Christian, then we'd all be out of luck, myself certainly included.

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ChatterBox
The problem with that formula is that our progenitor's "mortal sin" was taking a bite out of an apple. I don't see that one in St. Paul's list, and if taking a bite out of an apple is "mortal", and is so bad that it caused the spiritual death of the entire human race, what lesser sins (than taking a bite out of an apple) can you come up with to list as "venial"?
Sorry to cut in slightly, but isn't there a slight distinction to be made here? The action was taking a bite from an apple, but the sin was disobeying God's command.

 

I know the Catholic distinction between venal and mortal sin seems to be based on the ten commandments, but it isn't something I am that familiar with.

 

 

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David Lee
Sorry to cut in slightly, but isn't there a slight distinction to be made here? The action was taking a bite from an apple, but the sin was disobeying God's command.

 

I know the Catholic distinction between venal and mortal sin seems to be based on the ten commandments, but it isn't something I am that familiar with.

 

 

Hi CB, yes, our progenitors' sin was disobedience, which I believe was a big part of my point. ALL sins are disobedient acts against a Holy God. Our RC friends however, make a distinction between a sin/disobedience that is truly "grievous" (and therefore "mortal"), and a sin/disobedience that is not so grievous (called "venial"). Murder vs a white lie, or something like that.

 

My point was/is, if the disobedient act of taking a bite out of an apple is a "mortal" sin, so grievous, in fact, that it caused the death of the entire human race, what sinful/disobedient act is there that could possibly be described as "venial" then?? (because how much further away from "GRIEVOUS" can you get than taking a bite out of an apple?)

 

Hope that helps explain it. In a nutshell, I don't believe there are venial sins, just mortal sins (as I believe the apple in the Garden does a pretty good job of demonstrating), though there is another "kind" of mortal sin, a sin that, once committed, will never be forgiven .. Matthew 12:31-32.

 

Yours and His,

David

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wfredeemed009

 

Hi CB, yes, our progenitors' sin was disobedience, which I believe was a big part of my point. ALL sins are disobedient acts against a Holy God. Our RC friends however, make a distinction between a sin/disobedience that is truly "grievous" (and therefore "mortal"), and a sin/disobedience that is not so grievous (called "venial"). Murder vs a white lie, or something like that.

 

My point was/is, if the disobedient act of taking a bite out of an apple is a "mortal" sin, so grievous, in fact, that it caused the death of the entire human race, what sinful/disobedient act is there that could possibly be described as "venial" then?? (because how much further away from "GRIEVOUS" can you get than taking a bite out of an apple?)

 

Hope that helps explain it. In a nutshell, I don't believe there are venial sins, just mortal sins (as I believe the apple in the Garden does a pretty good job of demonstrating), though there is another "kind" of mortal sin, a sin that, once committed, will never be forgiven .. Matthew 12:31-32.

 

Yours and His,

David

 

 

I don't remember their being a sin-ranking system in the Bible myself.

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Faber

Does the Bible Say True Christians Never Sin? Good article William.

 

To those who insist that a Christian never sins I offer the following examples for you to consider.

 

Galatians 2:13

The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. (NASB)

1. Was Peter a Christian at the time of his "hypocrisy" from which he would later command Christians to avoid (1 Peter 2:1)?

 

Revelation 19:10

Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” (NASB)

1. In the above passage the Apostle John falls to the sin of idolatry.

2. Because he had sinned the angel immediately told John that he shouldn't do that. Notice however what the angel did not say to him:

a. I (once) was a fellow servant of yours.

b. I used to be a fellow servant of yours.

The angel did respond by saying, I am a fellow servant of yours.

This means that despite John's sin he still belonged with the other members of God's community as a fellow servant.

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Faber
I don't remember their being a sin-ranking system in the Bible myself.

 

The Jews of that time period who "delivered" Christ up to Pilate committed the "greater sin" (John 19:11; cf. Acts 3:13, 17).

 

See also Luke 12:47-48.

 

 

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explorerx7

It's foolhardy to believe that once someone becomes a Christian they are above sinning. We are human beings and the Bible tells us we are not perfect but that doesn't mean we may go on deliberately sinning and then we ask for forgiveness. Life makes allowances for accidents and that's why when there is accident persons are not charged for murder because it was a mishap. The thing to do is to seek to avoid the mishaps as much as possible but God will know when whatever happened may not have been intentional.

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