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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
William

John 3:16 and Man’s Ability to Choose God

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4 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

What didn't I reply to?

You mean libertarian free will?

It's all over the entire bible...O.T. and N.T.

Every time we're given a choice about something....that speaks to free will.

I pick the section of the book store where exegeting is done, of course.

I don't make up theology...theology is already in existence.

The study of God is pretty much what we're going to have...we've been studying God for 2,000 years...I think this is it.  What I see happening now, to some extent, is persons that want to go BACK to the initial church.  

Libertarian Free Will: So you believe a person's choices and decisions are free from the determination or constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God?

 

Theological Contradiction: "Every time we're given a choice about something....that speaks to free will."

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9 minutes ago, William said:

Libertarian Free Will: So you believe a person's choices and decisions are free from the determination or constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God?

 

Theological Contradiction: "Every time we're given a choice about something....that speaks to free will."

Constraints of human nature....

 

 

When we speak of free will in biblical terms, we mean MORAL free will.

We have a free will to make a moral choice.

We do not have a free will to fly like a bird.

 

And, yes, every time the bible speaks to making a decision or giving us a choice..

it speaks to free will in making that choice and coming to a decision.

 

Deuteronomy 30:19    What does it mean?

19“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 

 

If we are told to CHOOSE LIFE, does that not mean that we have a free will choice to make?  We could CHOOSE LIFE or we could CHOOSE DEATH.

God leaves the choice to us.  If HE had already chosen,,,there would be no need to tell US to choose.

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8 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

Constraints of human nature....

 

 

When we speak of free will in biblical terms, we mean MORAL free will.

We have a free will to make a moral choice.

We do not have a free will to fly like a bird.

 

And, yes, every time the bible speaks to making a decision or giving us a choice..

it speaks to free will in making that choice and coming to a decision.

 

Deuteronomy 30:19    What does it mean?

19“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 

 

If we are told to CHOOSE LIFE, does that not mean that we have a free will choice to make?  We could CHOOSE LIFE or we could CHOOSE DEATH.

God leaves the choice to us.  If HE had already chosen,,,there would be no need to tell US to choose.

I'm on mobile at the moment but your watering down of man's sin nature and God's holiness is tiring. 

 

And oh look, another misapplication of Scripture. Who was the audience in Deuteronomy 30;19?

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2 minutes ago, William said:

 

I'm on mobile at the moment but your watering down of man's sin nature and God's holiness is tiring. 

 

And oh look, another misapplication of Scripture. Who was the audience in Deuteronomy 30;19?

All of us.

If you don't like the O.T. you can try Philemon 14 in the N.T.

And if I'm tiring, you are not required to reply to my posts.

 

And I'd like to know how FREE WILL waters down God's holiness.

He created us in HIS IMAGE and HE has free will which He passed on to us beginning in the Garden of Eden.

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1 minute ago, GodsGrace said:

All of us.

If you don't like the O.T. you can try Philemon 14 in the N.T.

And if I'm tiring, you are not required to reply to my posts.

 

And I'd like to know how FREE WILL waters down God's holiness.

He created us in HIS IMAGE and HE has free will which He passed on to us beginning in the Garden of Eden.

So you disregard the intended audience and think that's exegesis?

 

I won't let this board become a CF.net.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, William said:

So you disregard the intended audience and think that's exegesis?

 

I won't let this board become a CF.net.

 

 

What's wrong with CFnet?

Why do you even bring that up?

5 minutes ago, William said:

So you disregard the intended audience and think that's exegesis?

 

I won't let this board become a CF.net.

 

 

I DID say that the ENTIRE bible is for EVERYONE.

God is everyone's God....

He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

I also gave you a verse from the N.T.

I have plenty more if you want them....

You think only parts of the bible are for us?

Jesus quoted from the O.T.

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6 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

What's wrong with CFnet?

Why do you even bring that up?

Because I read from there and read yours as well as from others many of which refuse to learn let alone be edified. That board is full of works righteousness and performance based works advocates. 

 

You can't exegete. You reject esigesis then quote a scriptural verse and suggest something foreign to the passage. You then have the nerve to suggest that I may not like the OT. 

 

You say the intended audience is us, and I say the intended audience was and is now Israel, God's chosen people. 

 

What I'm wondering is what that verse has to do with you?

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2 minutes ago, William said:

Because I read from there and read yours as well as from others many of which refuse to learn let alone be edified. That board is full of works righteousness and performance based works advocates. 

 

You can't exegete. You reject esigesis then quote a scriptural verse and suggest something foreign to the passage. You then have the nerve to suggest that I may not like the OT. 

 

You say the intended audience is us, and I say the intended audience was and is now Israel, God's chosen people. 

 

What I'm wondering is what that verse has to do with you?

It's not that "we" refuse to learn....let me just talk about me.

It's that I don't agree with you and I told you this from when I first signed on to here.  I do not agree with calvinism because it changes the nature of God.

 

As to being edified...I don't think we Christians are capable of edifying each other. I think we like to battle out who is right and who is wrong.  I'm trying a couple of new sites and it's a rather long and boring story -- where I live might have something to do with why I'm even here on any site.

 

As for works righteousness,  yes,  I think we have to work and do good deeds in order to KEEP our salvation - not in order to BECOME saved.  If we can't even agree on this, then Christianity is in a sorry state. I'm starting to understand why some persons don't go to ANY church...

 

Deuteronomy was written to the Israelites escaping from Egypt.  So?  Almost every word in the bible is for everyone.  I say almost because some truly do not have any meaning to us.  But Deuteronomy 30:19 DOES have importance in our own lives today.  God gives us a choice:  The blessing and the curse.

In D it revolves around the Mosaic Covenant...but we also are blessed if we accept God and cursed if we do not.

 

We were discussing free will.  If God gives us a choice, it means we have free will.

Setting aside the Covenant...what difference did it make to WHOM Deuteronomy is speaking?  What matters is that it's giving us a choice which shows free will.

 

Perhaps you forgot what we were discussing?

Perhaps you should give me some credit for knowing the bible, which I've been studying for at least the past 30 or more years.

 

So that's what the verse has to do with me.

Any new covenant does not abolish the previous covenant..it only changes it or makes it better.

 

If you want to discuss covenants --- I'm ready.  I used to teach them.

Just don't change from one discussion to another like you did re free will and WHO was being addressed in Deuteronomy.

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6 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

It's that I don't agree with you and I told you this from when I first signed on to here.  I do not agree with calvinism because it changes the nature of God.

That's enough for me.

 

I agree, from your perspective the nature of God is changed. 

 

Your God is not my God. 

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4 minutes ago, William said:

That's enough for me.

 

I agree, from your perspective the nature of God is changed. 

 

Your God is not my God. 

There's only one God W.

We serve the same God.

His nature is easy to see in the N.T. After all, Jesus was the ultimate revelation - there will be no more.

 

Did Jesus preach to all ? Why did He preach at all if God already knew who would be chosen to be saved?

 

Jesus Himself told the Father that the Father's will should be done and not Jesus' will.  Does this mean Jesus had a will separate from the Father at that moment?  I think it does.  Did Jesus wish those in Jerusalem had gone to him to be under His wing...but they refused to.  Why say that if He knew God had already predetermined everything?

 

What kind of a God would not give us, each and everyone of us, the chance to be saved?

 

God is sovereign.

Man has free will.

This is problematic...but it's more problematic to believe God is not sovereign, or man does not have free will.

 

With God all things are possible...we do not have the mind of God and will not understand everything about Him.

 

I'll say good night ...

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26 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

There's only one God W.

We serve the same God.

His nature is easy to see in the N.T. After all, Jesus was the ultimate revelation - there will be no more.

 

Did Jesus preach to all ? Why did He preach at all if God already knew who would be chosen to be saved?

 

Jesus Himself told the Father that the Father's will should be done and not Jesus' will.  Does this mean Jesus had a will separate from the Father at that moment?  I think it does.  Did Jesus wish those in Jerusalem had gone to him to be under His wing...but they refused to.  Why say that if He knew God had already predetermined everything?

 

What kind of a God would not give us, each and everyone of us, the chance to be saved?

 

God is sovereign.

Man has free will.

This is problematic...but it's more problematic to believe God is not sovereign, or man does not have free will.

 

With God all things are possible...we do not have the mind of God and will not understand everything about Him.

 

I'll say good night ...

You don't even agree with what you state.

 

You're beyond contradictory. What is the difference between Yahweh and Allah if not by nature? How can we know God if not by His nature?

 

You stated that Calvinism changes the nature of God. I agree with you. From your unbiblical perspective I agree that God's nature is changed through the hermeneutical lens of Calvinism.

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6 hours ago, GodsGrace said:

Deuteronomy 30:19    What does it mean?

19“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 

Well, your emphasis is on the word "choose". Therefore, just reject everything else and that'll prove your point.

 

As for whosoever else may be reading this let's address Deuteronomy 30:19. Does Deuteronomy 30:19 teach that men are capable of choosing life (by obeying and following Him)?

 

A key passage comes about in Deuteronomy 10:12-22:

 

12 “And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, 13 and to keep the commandments and statutes of the Lord, which I am commanding you today for your good? 14 Behold, to the Lord your God belong heaven and the heaven of heavens, the earth with all that is in it. 15 Yet the Lord set his heart in love on your fathers and chose their offspring after them, you above all peoples, as you are this day. 16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no longer stubborn. 17 For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe. 18 He executes justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the sojourner, giving him food and clothing. 19 Love the sojourner, therefore, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. 20 You shall fear the Lord your God. You shall serve him and hold fast to him, and by his name you shall swear. 21 He is your praise. He is your God, who has done for you these great and terrifying things that your eyes have seen. 22 Your fathers went down to Egypt seventy persons, and now the Lord your God has made you as numerous as the stars of heaven.

 

God commands fear, love, obedience, and service and that the people to circumcise their own hearts.  Who can do that themselves?

 

Nobody can and that's why there's an expectation of failure. Prophecies are given while God sovereignly ordains events. But my opponent says:

6 hours ago, GodsGrace said:

If HE had already chosen,,,there would be no need to tell US to choose. 

As we read people agree to obey but they will ultimately disobey and the full weight of the curses fall on them as they are both accountable and responsible Deuteronomy 28:36-37.

 

“The Lord will bring you and your king whom you set over you to a nation that neither you nor your fathers have known. And there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone. 37 And you shall become a horror, a proverb, and a byword among all the peoples where the Lord will lead you away.

 

Now what about Deuteronomy 30:19 and those people which agree to obey but ultimately disobey?

 

Deuteronomy 31:16–21

 

16 And the Lord said to Moses, b“Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers. Then this people will rise and whore after the foreign gods among them in the land that they are entering, and they will forsake me and break my covenant that I have made with them. 17 Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and hI will forsake them and ihide my face from them, and they will be devoured. And many evils and troubles will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, j‘Have not these evils come upon us because kour God is not among us?’ 18 And I will surely hide my face in that day because of all the evil that they have done, because lthey have turned to other gods.

19 “Now therefore write mthis song and nteach it to the people of Israel. Put it in their mouths, that this song may be oa witness for me against the people of Israel. 20 For when I have brought them into the land pflowing with milk and honey, which I swore to give to their fathers, and they have eaten and are full and qgrown fat, they will turn to other gods and serve them, and despise me and break my covenant. 21 And when many evils and troubles have come upon them, this song shall confront them as ta witness (for it will live unforgotten in the mouths of their offspring). For uI know what they are inclined to do even today, before I have brought them into the land that I swore to give.”

 

Deuteronomy 31:27-29

 

For I know how rebellious and stubborn you are. Behold, even today while I am yet alive with you, you have been rebellious against the LORD. How much more after my death! [Moses] Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears and call heaven and earth to witness against them. For I know that after my death you will surely act corruptly and turn aside from the way that I have commanded you. And in the days to come evil will befall you, because you will do what is evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger through the work of your hands.
 

So, the very verse which @GodsGrace suggests free will or "ability" in fact is a passage prophesying about the total inability of man to follow and obey God out of his own corrupt sin-bound heart, and the promise that only God alone can overcome the sinner’s heart by replacing the heart of stone with a heart of flesh and causing them to walk according to His commands and statutes Ezekiel 11:19-20; Ezekiel 36:24-27.

 

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On 4/14/2019 at 4:21 AM, William said:

Well, your emphasis is on the word "choose". Therefore, just reject everything else and that'll prove your point.

William,

That WAS my point.  The word CHOOSE denotes free will to choose.

Unless we're some puppet God created and infuses us with his will so we do whatever He wants---is that the type of human being He would want?

If YOU want your wife, children, whatever, to love you freely, a higher intelligence than ours must surely want even MORE -- which is why Jesus had to die.  Because of our disobedience to God and the ransom that was paid to free us from the possession of the evil one.

 

If I'm trying to make a point, the entire chapter does not have to be used...we can only use sentences of the writer that prove our point - as long as it's in context, and surely, this was.

On 4/14/2019 at 4:21 AM, William said:

 

As for whosoever else may be reading this let's address Deuteronomy 30:19. Does Deuteronomy 30:19 teach that men are capable of choosing life (by obeying and following Him)?

 

A key passage comes about in Deuteronomy 10:12-22:

 

12 “And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, 13 and to keep the commandments and statutes of the Lord, which I am commanding you today for your good? 14 Behold, to the Lord your God belong heaven and the heaven of heavens, the earth with all that is in it. 15 Yet the Lord set his heart in love on your fathers and chose their offspring after them, you above all peoples, as you are this day. 16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no longer stubborn. 17 For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe. 18 He executes justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the sojourner, giving him food and clothing. 19 Love the sojourner, therefore, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. 20 You shall fear the Lord your God. You shall serve him and hold fast to him, and by his name you shall swear. 21 He is your praise. He is your God, who has done for you these great and terrifying things that your eyes have seen. 22 Your fathers went down to Egypt seventy persons, and now the Lord your God has made you as numerous as the stars of heaven.

 

God commands fear, love, obedience, and service and that the people to circumcise their own hearts.  Who can do that themselves?

 

Because man was not able to obey God because of the absense of the Holy Spirit does not mean that man does not have free will.

 

It means precisely the opposite...why would God give man a choice if He knows man cannot keep what man promises?  Is God dumb?

 

Man must make a free will choice to either love God or love the enemy.  If God makes the choice for him, of what use is it?  It becomes only a game.

 

Deuteronomy 10:12   Why would God tell men what is required of them if it's HE who determines what man will ultimately do?  

 

Verse 13   Ditto

 

Verse 15   God chose the Hebrews to whom to reveal Himself...Abraham and his offspring...Just as Romans 9 to 11 speaks of.

 

Verse 16  Why ask His people to no longer be stubborn, if being stubborn depends on HIM??

 

Verse 17   God is not partial..again refer to Romans 2:11 - we are all the same to God and He will accept whosoever wants Him.  John 3:16

 

Verses 18-22  All that happened in the O.T. was attributed to God...the good and the bad: but we know that God does not create evil...the enemy does.  If God creates evil...then HE is both God AND the enemy.

Verse 20 says we shall hold fast to God.  As is written many times in the N.T....hold fast:  

Hebrews 3:6

Hebrews 10:23

2 Thes 2:15

2 Tim 1:13

 

As to your last sentence,   God has given us the Holy Spirit exactly to help us to love, serve, obey and have a fleshy heart.  This is exactly the difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant ---- the Holy Spirit who Jesus said would come to us. 

John 16:7

On 4/14/2019 at 4:21 AM, William said:

 

Nobody can and that's why there's an expectation of failure. Prophecies are given while God sovereignly ordains events. But my opponent says:

As we read people agree to obey but they will ultimately disobey and the full weight of the curses fall on them as they are both accountable and responsible Deuteronomy 28:36-37.

 

“The Lord will bring you and your king whom you set over you to a nation that neither you nor your fathers have known. And there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone. 37 And you shall become a horror, a proverb, and a byword among all the peoples where the Lord will lead you away.

 

Now what about Deuteronomy 30:19 and those people which agree to obey but ultimately disobey?

 

Because one ultimately disobeys does not mean he didn't have the choice to obey.  Why would God even offer blessings or curses if it's up to HIM to supply whatever HE ordains?

 

The Israelites wanted a King.  God gave them a King.

This very plainly shows free will....God gave the people what they wanted -

be it good or bad for them is another story.   God warned them it would be bad for them...but they still wanted a King and God allowed them what they wanted.

This is not free will?

 

I had a choice to live in NY or Italy.  I made a choice.  Because that choice may turn out to be very good or horrible does not deny that I had the choice.

On 4/14/2019 at 4:21 AM, William said:

 

Deuteronomy 31:16–21

 

16 And the Lord said to Moses, b“Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers. Then this people will rise and whore after the foreign gods among them in the land that they are entering, and they will forsake me and break my covenant that I have made with them. 17 Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and hI will forsake them and ihide my face from them, and they will be devoured. And many evils and troubles will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, j‘Have not these evils come upon us because kour God is not among us?’ 18 And I will surely hide my face in that day because of all the evil that they have done, because lthey have turned to other gods.

19 “Now therefore write mthis song and nteach it to the people of Israel. Put it in their mouths, that this song may be oa witness for me against the people of Israel. 20 For when I have brought them into the land pflowing with milk and honey, which I swore to give to their fathers, and they have eaten and are full and qgrown fat, they will turn to other gods and serve them, and despise me and break my covenant. 21 And when many evils and troubles have come upon them, this song shall confront them as ta witness (for it will live unforgotten in the mouths of their offspring). For uI know what they are inclined to do even today, before I have brought them into the land that I swore to give.”

 

Deuteronomy 31:27-29

 

For I know how rebellious and stubborn you are. Behold, even today while I am yet alive with you, you have been rebellious against the LORD. How much more after my death! [Moses] Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears and call heaven and earth to witness against them. For I know that after my death you will surely act corruptly and turn aside from the way that I have commanded you. And in the days to come evil will befall you, because you will do what is evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger through the work of your hands.
 

So, the very verse which @GodsGrace suggests free will or "ability" in fact is a passage prophesying about the total inability of man to follow and obey God out of his own corrupt sin-bound heart, and the promise that only God alone can overcome the sinner’s heart by replacing the heart of stone with a heart of flesh and causing them to walk according to His commands and statutes Ezekiel 11:19-20; Ezekiel 36:24-27.

 

Why are the people turning to other Gods?

Why is God punishing them for what HE ordained?

You do not exegete verses but only post them.

 

And this is to speak nothing of covenants.

Have you considered conditional covenants?

WHY are they conditional if all depends on GOD???

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, GodsGrace said:

William,

That WAS my point.  The word CHOOSE denotes free will to choose.

Unless we're some puppet God created and infuses us with his will so we do whatever He wants---is that the type of human being He would want?

If YOU want your wife, children, whatever, to love you freely, a higher intelligence than ours must surely want even MORE -- which is why Jesus had to die.  Because of our disobedience to God and the ransom that was paid to free us from the possession of the evil one.

 

Verse 16  Why ask His people to no longer be stubborn, if being stubborn depends on HIM?? 

You're so wrapped up in a making a case for the reprobate I'm tempted to nail you to a cross in place of Jesus. Now why might God give the reprobate a choice? Have you considered the reason why repetitive rejection and disobedience was recorded in Deuteronomy?

 

Deuteronomy 29:4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear.
 

You said the Scriptures about Israel are for "us". The Scriptures are written for everyone (outward call) especially the Elect which have a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear. Concerning Deuteronomy 29:4 why would God even speak to someone (reprobate) that's hasn't the ability to not only perceive His messages but acknowledge His works? Deuteronomy 29:4 plainly states that the Lord has not given everyone a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear. Now the doctrine of Total Depravity may be a foreign point to you but it is taught in Scripture and especially in the verse's context you so wrongly reject to convey a false ability.

5 hours ago, GodsGrace said:

Verse 17   God is not partial..again refer to Romans 2:11 - we are all the same to God and He will accept whosoever wants Him.  John 3:16

 

Verses 18-22  All that happened in the O.T. was attributed to God...the good and the bad: but we know that God does not create evil...the enemy does.  If God creates evil...then HE is both God AND the enemy.

Verse 20 says we shall hold fast to God.  As is written many times in the N.T....hold fast:  

Hebrews 3:6

Hebrews 10:23

2 Thes 2:15

2 Tim 1:13

 

As to your last sentence,   God has given us the Holy Spirit exactly to help us to love, serve, obey and have a fleshy heart.  This is exactly the difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant ---- the Holy Spirit who Jesus said would come to us. 

John 16:7

Quote

 

Nobody can and that's why there's an expectation of failure. Prophecies are given while God sovereignly ordains events. But my opponent says:

As we read people agree to obey but they will ultimately disobey and the full weight of the curses fall on them as they are both accountable and responsible Deuteronomy 28:36-37.

 

“The Lord will bring you and your king whom you set over you to a nation that neither you nor your fathers have known. And there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone. 37 And you shall become a horror, a proverb, and a byword among all the peoples where the Lord will lead you away.

 

Now what about Deuteronomy 30:19 and those people which agree to obey but ultimately disobey?

Read more  

 

Because one ultimately disobeys does not mean he didn't have the choice to obey.  Why would God even offer blessings or curses if it's up to HIM to supply whatever HE ordains?

 

The Israelites wanted a King.  God gave them a King.

This very plainly shows free will....God gave the people what they wanted -

be it good or bad for them is another story.   God warned them it would be bad for them...but they still wanted a King and God allowed them what they wanted.

This is not free will?

 

I had a choice to live in NY or Italy.  I made a choice.  Because that choice may turn out to be very good or horrible does not deny that I had the choice.

Quote

 

Deuteronomy 31:16–21

 

16 And the Lord said to Moses, b“Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers. Then this people will rise and whore after the foreign gods among them in the land that they are entering, and they will forsake me and break my covenant that I have made with them. 17 Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and hI will forsake them and ihide my face from them, and they will be devoured. And many evils and troubles will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, j‘Have not these evils come upon us because kour God is not among us?’ 18 And I will surely hide my face in that day because of all the evil that they have done, because lthey have turned to other gods.

19 “Now therefore write mthis song and nteach it to the people of Israel. Put it in their mouths, that this song may be oa witness for me against the people of Israel. 20 For when I have brought them into the land pflowing with milk and honey, which I swore to give to their fathers, and they have eaten and are full and qgrown fat, they will turn to other gods and serve them, and despise me and break my covenant. 21 And when many evils and troubles have come upon them, this song shall confront them as ta witness (for it will live unforgotten in the mouths of their offspring). For uI know what they are inclined to do even today, before I have brought them into the land that I swore to give.”

 

Deuteronomy 31:27-29

 

For I know how rebellious and stubborn you are. Behold, even today while I am yet alive with you, you have been rebellious against the LORD. How much more after my death! [Moses] Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears and call heaven and earth to witness against them. For I know that after my death you will surely act corruptly and turn aside from the way that I have commanded you. And in the days to come evil will befall you, because you will do what is evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger through the work of your hands.
 

So, the very verse which @GodsGrace suggests free will or "ability" in fact is a passage prophesying about the total inability of man to follow and obey God out of his own corrupt sin-bound heart, and the promise that only God alone can overcome the sinner’s heart by replacing the heart of stone with a heart of flesh and causing them to walk according to His commands and statutes Ezekiel 11:19-20; Ezekiel 36:24-27.

 

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Why are the people turning to other Gods?

Why is God punishing them for what HE ordained?

You do not exegete verses but only post them.

 

And this is to speak nothing of covenants.

Have you considered conditional covenants?

WHY are they conditional if all depends on GOD???

I won't address any further Scriptures with you. There's no sense addressing the verses in hand when you will not be edified when confronted with your error. Deuteronomy 30:19 does not support your point nor agenda and you err in doctrine.

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image.png.f0c9947a278fcb0900a19bea83a431e7.pngThis how some folks see Jesus Pick me Pick me. 

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6 hours ago, GodsGrace said:

I had a choice to live in NY or Italy.  I made a choice.  Because that choice may turn out to be very good or horrible does not deny that I had the choice.

Did you have a choice to live in the White House?

I am only suggesting that one can have many choices and still have some choices that are not open to them.

 

6 hours ago, GodsGrace said:

Because one ultimately disobeys does not mean he didn't have the choice to obey.  Why would God even offer blessings or curses if it's up to HIM to supply whatever HE ordains?

  

The Israelites wanted a King.  God gave them a King.

This very plainly shows free will....God gave the people what they wanted -

be it good or bad for them is another story.   God warned them it would be bad for them...but they still wanted a King and God allowed them what they wanted.

This is not free will?

Given the example of our inability to choose to live in the White House, what if the Israelites had all the free will they might desire to do anything ... except trust God completely.

Would it have been wrong for God to ask them to trust Him completely?  Even if they couldn't do it?

Is it wrong for God to ask us not to sin, even though we are incapable of living a completely sinless life?

Why does God command people not to sin?

He must know that we can't live sinless, we can at best only sin less.

 

6 hours ago, GodsGrace said:

Man must make a free will choice to either love God or love the enemy.  If God makes the choice for him, of what use is it?  It becomes only a game.

Perhaps man is called to Love God in exactly the same way that Israel was called to trust God and we are called to not sin.  God is completely aware that we will sin, and Israel will doubt and man cannot love God "with all our heart and soul and mind and strength".  That does not make the command a "game".  Our inability to avoid sin points to our need for a savior to offer himself as a sinless Lamb of God to wash us clean of our unavoidable sins (for which we alone must bear the guilt).  The inabilitity of Israel to trust in God as their king, points to the need for God to create a spirtual kingdom ... which he does by writing His laws on our new heart.  Our inability to love God points to the need for the Father to draw (like a fisherman draws a net) those chosen before the creation of the world to be LOVED BY GOD, and predestined and called and justified and sanctified and glorified ... to Jesus.

 

We have almost infinite choices.  The only choice that we do not have innate to fallen man is the ability to "LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF” (Luke 10:27) ... instead "men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." (John 3:19-20).

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2 hours ago, William said:

You're so wrapped up in a making a case for the reprobate I'm tempted to nail you to a cross in place of Jesus. Now why might God give the reprobate a choice? Have you considered the reason why repetitive rejection and disobedience was recorded in Deuteronomy?

No. Why?

 

I gave my reason....the Holy Spirit was not present IN man...He was always present.

 

Man tends toward sin...we have a sin nature...we are not totally depraved...this is an idea that comes from man; it is not in scripture.

 

Titus 2:11

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

 

We are not so depraved as to be unable to accept God when He has been presented to us.  Jesus brought salvation too ALL men.

John 3:16 speaks to the fact that WHOEVER believes will be saved.

Could it be that JESUS did not know what He meant to say?  He could have said this any way He wanted to and He chose to say WHOEVER will believe.

 

Disobedience in Deuteronomy is noted because all men have always disobeyed God.  This does not mean they are totally depraved as Calvin believed.  A new idea back in the year 1,500 AD or so, BTW.

 

I might have disobeyed my parents...that does not mean I NEVER obeyed them.

2 hours ago, William said:

 

Deuteronomy 29:4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear.
 

You said the Scriptures about Israel are for "us". The Scriptures are written for everyone (outward call) especially the Elect which have a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear. Concerning Deuteronomy 29:4 why would God even speak to someone (reprobate) that's hasn't the ability to not only perceive His messages but acknowledge His works? Deuteronomy 29:4 plainly states that the Lord has not given everyone a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear. Now the doctrine of Total Depravity may be a foreign point to you but it is taught in Scripture and especially in the verse's context you so wrongly reject to convey a false ability.

Post some verses...

They'll speak to the sin nature; not to total depravity.

Why would God speak to the reprobate?  Because He wants to give every man the opportunity to be saved.  As a JUST God would.  

 

Deuteronomy 29:4  What are you going to do..throw verses at me?  How about explaining away the ones we were speaking of?

 

Moses is telling the Israelites that they have seenn many miracles.  This is similar to Jesus saying that some do not have ears to hear or eyes to see..why?

Because God wants us to make an effort to understand...those that want to be saved must hear God and see God and understand God with their heart, and it is THEM that must make the effort to do so.

All they had in the desert was from God and they had to understand this of their own effort.

 

OR

God is a merciless God that makes an effort NOT to save people.

2 hours ago, William said:

I won't address any further Scriptures with you. There's no sense addressing the verses in hand when you will not be edified when confronted with your error. Deuteronomy 30:19 does not support your point nor agenda and you err in doctrine.

Easy to say.  

But can you prove that I'm wrong?

Or do you just bow out?

 

Deuteronomy 30:19 proves my point exactly.

Man has free will.

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34 minutes ago, atpollard said:

 

Did you have a choice to live in the White House?

I am only suggesting that one can have many choices and still have some choices that are not open to them.

 

Still with the same old argument....

What a silly question.

Can you fly?

Are we discussing the bible here or philosophy?

Libertarian free will refers to moral choices....not the ability to do what a human cannot do.

 

Deuteronomy 30:19 gives us a  moral choice.

A choice denotes free will.

34 minutes ago, atpollard said:

 

Given the example of our inability to choose to live in the White House, what if the Israelites had all the free will they might desire to do anything ... except trust God completely.

Would it have been wrong for God to ask them to trust Him completely?  Even if they couldn't do it?

Is it wrong for God to ask us not to sin, even though we are incapable of living a completely sinless life?

Why does God command people not to sin?

He must know that we can't live sinless, we can at best only sin less.

 

God asks all men to do His will.

Not all men will and prefer to choose the prince of the air over God.

And the sin nature is not eradicated...but put under submission.

Even you agree from your post that we will sin, but yes, much less.

 

God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son.

Why did He do this?

Didn't God know that He, God, would stop him?

He asks us not to sin for the same reason.

 

34 minutes ago, atpollard said:

 

Perhaps man is called to Love God in exactly the same way that Israel was called to trust God and we are called to not sin.  God is completely aware that we will sin, and Israel will doubt and man cannot love God "with all our heart and soul and mind and strength".  That does not make the command a "game".  Our inability to avoid sin points to our need for a savior to offer himself as a sinless Lamb of God to wash us clean of our unavoidable sins (for which we alone must bear the guilt). 

I agreed.

But explain to me why we alone must bear the guilt of our sins IF

GOD predetermines every aspect of our life from before time began.

If we ARE NOT free agents...then GOD has full responsibility for our sins.

 

Does God sin?

If yes, then YOU could be right.

If no, then YOU cannot be right.

34 minutes ago, atpollard said:

 

 

The inabilitity of Israel to trust in God as their king, points to the need for God to create a spirtual kingdom ... which he does by writing His laws on our new heart.  Our inability to love God points to the need for the Father to draw (like a fisherman draws a net) those chosen before the creation of the world to be LOVED BY GOD, and predestined and called and justified and sanctified and glorified ... to Jesus.

I agree again.

Except for the fact that you say God has already chosen before the creation of time who would be loved by Him.  Yes, the predestination and calling and justification is based on Jesus...

But this is not what @William is telling me.

What he's saying is that God chooses who will be saved and who will be lost.

This is not a biblical concept..unless someone can show me how it is by exegeting some verses.  John 3:16 says WHOEVER may be saved...

NOT only those God chose from the beginning of time.

God chose the METHOD of salvation..

NOT WHO would be saved.  God is not a respecter of persons..

All who wish it can be saved.

Romans 2:11-13

 

34 minutes ago, atpollard said:

 

We have almost infinite choices.  The only choice that we do not have innate to fallen man is the ability to "LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF” (Luke 10:27) ... instead "men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." (John 3:19-20).

True...as long as we serve satan.

False...after we choose to serve God.

Acts 16:30-31

Romans 6:16

Galatians 5:13

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The Scriptures were not written in chapter and verse.  Today we can cherry pick verses/passages. 

For me the whole of Scripture works together , often we use a verse to make a point , the whole of Scripture is the context .

Why not quote 

Joh 15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 

Seems

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 

Tickles the ear a bit sweeter 

 

 

 

 


 

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1 hour ago, GodsGrace said:

No. Why?

 

I gave my reason....the Holy Spirit was not present IN man...He was always present.

 

Man tends toward sin...we have a sin nature...we are not totally depraved...this is an idea that comes from man; it is not in scripture.

 

Titus 2:11

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

 

We are not so depraved as to be unable to accept God when He has been presented to us.  Jesus brought salvation too ALL men.

John 3:16 speaks to the fact that WHOEVER believes will be saved.

Could it be that JESUS did not know what He meant to say?  He could have said this any way He wanted to and He chose to say WHOEVER will believe.

 

Disobedience in Deuteronomy is noted because all men have always disobeyed God.  This does not mean they are totally depraved as Calvin believed.  A new idea back in the year 1,500 AD or so, BTW.

 

I might have disobeyed my parents...that does not mean I NEVER obeyed them.

Post some verses...

They'll speak to the sin nature; not to total depravity.

Why would God speak to the reprobate?  Because He wants to give every man the opportunity to be saved.  As a JUST God would.  

 

Deuteronomy 29:4  What are you going to do..throw verses at me?  How about explaining away the ones we were speaking of?

 

Moses is telling the Israelites that they have seenn many miracles.  This is similar to Jesus saying that some do not have ears to hear or eyes to see..why?

Because God wants us to make an effort to understand...those that want to be saved must hear God and see God and understand God with their heart, and it is THEM that must make the effort to do so.

All they had in the desert was from God and they had to understand this of their own effort.

 

OR

God is a merciless God that makes an effort NOT to save people.

Easy to say.  

But can you prove that I'm wrong?

Or do you just bow out?

 

Deuteronomy 30:19 proves my point exactly.

Man has free will.

 

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

 

The very verse you quote once again does not suggest what you state (Esiegesis). The context of 3:16 in 3:18 has the exception. Therefore, 3:16-18 contradict your interpretation of Titus 2:11 which you are forcing to promote your unbiblical doctrine which is to suggest that all means everyone without exception. John 3:16 paraphrased does not say God saved everyone but 'this is how God so loved the world.... whoever believes. Verse 3:18 refutes the argument that the world means every person without exception.

 

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

 

Titus 2:11 simply states that the Gospel is not a mystery but proclaimed to "all people". The Gospel is proclaimed to "all people" (outward call) but we know only applicable through Jesus. But what does the "all people" mean? You've rejected the intended meaning and instead focus on the word "all" to mean everyone without exception when "all people" is meant to convey who?

 

Another apparent contradiction when not allowing context to define a word:

 

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
 

Such verse reveals the nature of God being love towards people because He does not discriminate against the Elect (3:18 states the exception or the reprobate) from all tribes, tongues, and nations (World). Now the verse Titus 2:11 says that grace (salivific) "has appeared" to "all people". Are you contending that everyone without exception has heard of the Gospel (Special revelation) before death?

 

Your use of "all" to convey YOUR POINTS and AGENDA are an Esiegesis. For example, in the context of Titus 2:11 read Titus 2:6:

 

Titus 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

 

You read and then unfortunately teach that the verse suggests that everyone without exception has been ransomed. Such position contends that the Atonement is "universal" and taken out to a theological conclusion flies in the face of eternal security for if Jesus atoned for everyone without exception then everyone is 1) saved 2) or some loses salvation.  Salivific status becomes a matter of what an individual does or does not do conveyed by 1) works righteousness 2) performance based salvation.

 

Instead you ought to attempt to exegete what the author had in mind. The "all" is defined by context, in Titus 2:6 the all refers to the unworthy which are redeemed by Christ. This is what the redeemed which were ransomed have in COMMON to all, that is, all the ransomed have this in COMMON. Now you will suggest that all means every person without exception when in fact it refers to the ransomed.

 

Another verse which you've already used is 1 Timothy 2:3 which is repetitive in Titus "This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth".

 

Making the same mistake every time you reject the context of the verse. "All People" here are 1 Timothy 2:2 "kings and all who are in high positions", the all people refers to classes of people and not everyone without exception. God does not distinguish between peoples Jew and Gentile or classes of people 'kings to laymen'. The Atonement according to Scripture which is made clear through Calvinism is that though the Atonement is sufficient for the entire world (outward) it is only efficient by design for the Elect (many are called but few are chosen). Not a drop of Jesus' precious blood goes to waste.

 

You have been refuted.

 

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35 minutes ago, William said:

 

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

 

The very verse you quote once again does not suggest what you state (Esiegesis). The context of 3:16 in 3:18 has the exception. Therefore, 3:16-18 contradict your interpretation of Titus 2:11 which you are forcing to promote your unbiblical doctrine which is to suggest that all means everyone without exception. 

 

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

 

Titus 2:11 simply states that the Gospel is not a mystery but proclaimed to "all people". The Gospel is proclaimed to "all people" (outward call) but we know only applicable through Jesus. But what does the "all people" mean? You've rejected the intended meaning and instead focus on the word "all" to mean everyone without exception when "all people" is meant to convey who?

 

Another apparent contradiction when not allowing context to define a word:

 

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
 

Such verse reveals the nature of God being love towards people because He does not discriminate against the Elect (3:18 states the exception or the reprobate) from all tribes, tongues, and nations (World). Now the verse Titus 2:11 says that grace (salivific) "has appeared" to "all people". Are you contending that everyone without exception has heard of the Gospel (Special revelation) before death?

 

Your use of "all" to convey YOUR POINTS and AGENDA are an Esiegesis. For example, in the context of Titus 2:11 read Titus 2:6:

 

Titus 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

 

You read and then unfortunately teach that the verse suggests that everyone without exception has been ransomed. Such position contends that the Atonement is "universal" and taken out to a theological conclusion flies in the face of eternal security for if Jesus atoned for everyone without exception then everyone is 1) saved 2) or some loses salvation.  Salivific status becomes a matter of what an individual does or does not do conveyed by 1) works righteousness 2) performance based salvation.

 

Instead you ought to attempt to exegete what the author had in mind. The "all" is defined by context, in Titus 2:6 the all refers to the unworthy which are redeemed by Christ. This is what the redeemed which were ransomed have in COMMON. Now you will suggest that all means every person without exception when in fact it refers to the ransomed.

 

Another verse which you've already used is 1 Timothy 2:3 which is repetitive in Titus "This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth".

 

Making the same mistake every time you reject the context of the verse. "All People" here are 1 Timothy 2:2 "kings and all who are in high positions", the all people refers to classes of people and not everyone without exception. God does not distinguish between peoples Jew and Gentile or classes of people 'kings to laymen'. The Atonement according to Scripture which is made clear through Calvinism is that though the Atonement is sufficient for the entire world (outward) it is only efficient by design for the Elect (many are called but few are chosen). Not a drop of Jesus' precious blood goes to waste.

 

You have been refuted.

 

Whether or not I've been refuted is not for you to say!

 

All means all..it does not mean those that have been unworthy to be redeemed by Christ.

 

You put the cart before the horse.  

Before saying someone is lost forever...should he not be given a chance to accept God's conditions?

 

Titus 2:11 and John 3:16 say exactly the same concept.

God's grace...Jesus...has appeared to ALL.

ALL....WHOEVER...choose to believe.

All are called but only those that accept God's conditions are accepted.

 

Titus 2:6  Jesus gave Himself a ransom for ALL,  He died for the whole world.

This is repeated throughout the N.T.

1 John 2:2

 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

 

Jesus died for the sins of ALL THE WORLD....past sins, present sins, future sins.

He was the propitiation for the sins of everyone through all of time....those that would CHOOSE salvation and choose to obey God.

 

Those that DO NOT believe in Jesus are already lost because we're born lost and are affected by the sin nature.  Belief in Jesus remedies this.  Thus we have John 3:16 and Titus 2:11....Titus 2:6 changes nothing, but only reinforces my point.

 

John 3:18 is not an exception...it's only explaining how important it is to believe in Jesus.

John 3:16-18

 16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 

17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 

18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

For God so loved the WORLD = Mankind  ---God does NOT love the SYSTEM of the world, which is what world means in 1 John 2:15.  You've stated that you like exegesis...CONTEXT is part of exegesis.  In 1 John 2:15 the  word WORLD means the world SYSTEM...which is what we're NOT supposed to love...

This is reading in simple context.

 

Please see John 3:14

14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

 

Jesus Himself stated that WHOEVER believes in HIM will  have eternal life.

I see no exceptions anywhere in any of these verses in John 3.  Whosoever means Whosoever --- not just some that God chooses.

 

And please don't accuse me of universalism when I've repeatedly stated that God offers salvation to ALL MEN, to WHOEVER,  BUT each individual person must accept God's conditions.  Yes, 1 Timothy 2:3 is correct in how I exegete it.

God desires ALL MEN to come to salvation...so is He a weak God? NO.  The fact is that we have, again, FREE WILL, and we must CHOOSE God with our Free will in order to be saved.  Few are chosen....because few choose the narrow gate...Jesus said few will be saved...most choose the prince of the air and follow him instead of God...for many reasons.

 

As for 1 Timothy 2:2

 1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 

2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 

3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 

4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 

5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 

6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. 

 

Verses 1, 2

Paul is telling Timothy to pray for others so that God's mercy may be upon them.  He tells Timothy to pray for Kings and others in authority so that Christians may be able to live in peace. 

 

Verses 3, 4

Paul says that this will make God happy because He desires ALL MEN to come to understanding which will lead them to salvation.

 

Verses 5, 6

There is one mediator between GOD and MEN (all men who choose Him)

the man Jesus...who, again, gave Himself a rasom FOR ALL (all who choose Him).

 

And let's not forget Titus 2:11....again

11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

IF WE

Titus 2:12

12instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 

 

Now you have been refuted.

 

(see, it doesn't work like that...)

 

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On 4/4/2019 at 10:40 AM, William said:

I'm asking whether regeneration (born again) precedes faith or does faith precede regeneration?

Does one have to precede or follow the other? How about simultaneous?

The Gospel is heard creating faith in an individual.

If faith comes by hearing, how can a person become regenerate without first hearing God's Word?

 

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Genesis 1:3 (KJV) And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

 

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2 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

Whether or not I've been refuted is not for you to say!

 

All means all..it does not mean those that have been unworthy to be redeemed by Christ.

 

You put the cart before the horse.  

Before saying someone is lost forever...should he not be given a chance to accept God's conditions?

 

Titus 2:11 and John 3:16 say exactly the same concept.

God's grace...Jesus...has appeared to ALL.

ALL....WHOEVER...choose to believe.

All are called but only those that accept God's conditions are accepted.

 

Titus 2:6  Jesus gave Himself a ransom for ALL,  He died for the whole world.

This is repeated throughout the N.T.

1 John 2:2

 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

 

Jesus died for the sins of ALL THE WORLD....past sins, present sins, future sins.

He was the propitiation for the sins of everyone through all of time....those that would CHOOSE salvation and choose to obey God.

 

Those that DO NOT believe in Jesus are already lost because we're born lost and are affected by the sin nature.  Belief in Jesus remedies this.  Thus we have John 3:16 and Titus 2:11....Titus 2:6 changes nothing, but only reinforces my point.

 

John 3:18 is not an exception...it's only explaining how important it is to believe in Jesus.

John 3:16-18

 16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 

17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 

18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

For God so loved the WORLD = Mankind  ---God does NOT love the SYSTEM of the world, which is what world means in 1 John 2:15.  You've stated that you like exegesis...CONTEXT is part of exegesis.  In 1 John 2:15 the  word WORLD means the world SYSTEM...which is what we're NOT supposed to love...

This is reading in simple context.

 

Please see John 3:14

14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

 

Jesus Himself stated that WHOEVER believes in HIM will  have eternal life.

I see no exceptions anywhere in any of these verses in John 3.  Whosoever means Whosoever --- not just some that God chooses.

 

And please don't accuse me of universalism when I've repeatedly stated that God offers salvation to ALL MEN, to WHOEVER,  BUT each individual person must accept God's conditions.  Yes, 1 Timothy 2:3 is correct in how I exegete it.

God desires ALL MEN to come to salvation...so is He a weak God? NO.  The fact is that we have, again, FREE WILL, and we must CHOOSE God with our Free will in order to be saved.  Few are chosen....because few choose the narrow gate...Jesus said few will be saved...most choose the prince of the air and follow him instead of God...for many reasons.

 

As for 1 Timothy 2:2

 1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 

2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 

3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 

4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 

5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 

6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. 

 

Verses 1, 2

Paul is telling Timothy to pray for others so that God's mercy may be upon them.  He tells Timothy to pray for Kings and others in authority so that Christians may be able to live in peace. 

 

Verses 3, 4

Paul says that this will make God happy because He desires ALL MEN to come to understanding which will lead them to salvation.

 

Verses 5, 6

There is one mediator between GOD and MEN (all men who choose Him)

the man Jesus...who, again, gave Himself a rasom FOR ALL (all who choose Him).

 

And let's not forget Titus 2:11....again

11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

IF WE

Titus 2:12

12instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 

 

Now you have been refuted.

 

(see, it doesn't work like that...)

 

christforums.jpg.89974f6eb59e0271075f592954fb6089.jpg

 

You realize that we've not really seen it "All"? And you realize that this is not really "All" we know?

 

All is defined by the context.

 

Turn on the radio sometimes, listen to the sports, when the sport announcer says all the city is on its feet do you think they mean everyone without exception?

 

All is defined by the context.

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1 minute ago, William said:

christforums.jpg.89974f6eb59e0271075f592954fb6089.jpg

 

You realize that we've not really seen it "All"? And you realize that this is not really "All" we know?

 

All is defined by the context.

 

Turn on the radio sometimes, listen to the sports, when the sport announcer says all the city is on its feet do you think they mean everyone without exception?

 

All is defined by the context.

I agree.

And I used context.

If all meant all everywhere it would prove universalism....

Also,  you do forget that all are invited BUT only those that choose to obey God are chosen.

 

World is also used in different ways...I agreed and showed you how.

 

You know, Notre Dame no longer exists...it burned down today.

Much to your happiness, I can tell you this will be my last post for today.

 

We're still brothers in Christ W,,,no matter what.

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