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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
FireHeart

About fighting and self defense

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7 hours ago, Becky said:

Would you do nothing physical to stop a person on the street, your block, from beating an old person, a child etc? 

Give me an example where Jesus calls His people to judge when to attack someone.  I will give you dozens of examples and principles of Jesus calling us to love everyone without judgement as to who deserves what.  It is not my fault that evil is being done to another.  I get tired of this argument that somehow one is responsible for another's actions.  The only physical thing I would do is put myself in harms way to try and help the helpless.  Jesus gave us principles to live by.  We are to apply those principles not try and justify when those principles are convenient for us; that's relative morality and I don't believe Jesus taught that.  He taught absolute love.  Did God spare the disciples when He say them beaten, imprisoned and killed while they were about spreading the Gospel?  Your logic then dictates that God is bad because He just watched innocent people being killed, when He could have intervened.

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19 minutes ago, CompleteAgape said:

Give me an example where Jesus calls His people to judge when to attack someone.  I will give you dozens of examples and principles of Jesus calling us to love everyone without judgement as to who deserves what.  It is not my fault that evil is being done to another.  I get tired of this argument that somehow one is responsible for another's actions.  The only physical thing I would do is put myself in harms way to try and help the helpless.  Jesus gave us principles to live by.  We are to apply those principles not try and justify when those principles are convenient for us; that's relative morality and I don't believe Jesus taught that.  He taught absolute love.  Did God spare the disciples when He say them beaten, imprisoned and killed while they were about spreading the Gospel?  Your logic then dictates that God is bad because He just watched innocent people being killed, when He could have intervened.

That is not an answer to the question.

 

@Becky asked "Would you do nothing to physical stop a person on the street, your block, from beating an old person, a child etc?" 

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39 minutes ago, CompleteAgape said:

Give me an example where Jesus calls His people to judge when to attack someone.  I will give you dozens of examples and principles of Jesus calling us to love everyone without judgement as to who deserves what.  It is not my fault that evil is being done to another.  I get tired of this argument that somehow one is responsible for another's actions.  The only physical thing I would do is put myself in harms way to try and help the helpless.  Jesus gave us principles to live by.  We are to apply those principles not try and justify when those principles are convenient for us; that's relative morality and I don't believe Jesus taught that.  He taught absolute love.  Did God spare the disciples when He say them beaten, imprisoned and killed while they were about spreading the Gospel?  Your logic then dictates that God is bad because He just watched innocent people being killed, when He could have intervened.

You refuse to answer, which you are welcome to do.

 

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Give me an example where Jesus calls His people to judge when to attack someone. 

I did not speak of attacking anyone. How about you giving examples of Jesus saying it is ok to bear false witness .

 

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19 minutes ago, Becky said:

You refuse to answer, which you are welcome to do.

Don't you find it strange when ask a straight forward question some people ignore it?

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Just now, Origen said:

Don't you find strange when ask a straight forward question some people often to ignore it?

To my spirit it shows a lack of credibility.  

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10 minutes ago, Becky said:

To my spirit it shows a lack of credibility.  

Sounds reasonable.  It is a dodge.

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Having been in the place where bad guys kicked in the door came into the home with a loaded shotgun, I know i would not not defend my loved ones. By the Grace of God my husband did not kill or even shoot any one that evening. That gang went on the next week broke into an older couple's home I no longer remember if one or both died. 

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1 hour ago, Origen said:

That is not an answer to the question.

 

@Becky asked "Would you do nothing to physical stop a person on the street, your block, from beating an old person, a child etc?" 

"Would you do nothing physical to stop a person on the street, your block, from beating an old person, a child etc?"  This is ridiculous.  I did give an answer: " The only physical thing I would do is put myself in harms way to try and help the helpless." The answer is implied as NO.  I stated I would do something physical to stop a person from beating another; I would physically put myself in the way of the person being beaten.  Are these junior high people posting here?  I'm done commenting on immature arguments.  If someone wants to think critically and present reasonable argument, I'm open to discussion!

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49 minutes ago, Becky said:

You refuse to answer, which you are welcome to do.

 

I did not speak of attacking anyone. How about you giving examples of Jesus saying it is ok to bear false witness .

 

Sorry, you are mistaken. I did answer.  Please read again and think critically.  Ok, let's play the semantic game for this one post.  How would one physically interact with an attacker without attacking back to help another; if in fact you are not referring to attacking someone?

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43 minutes ago, CompleteAgape said:

The answer is implied as NO.

We prefer straight forward answers.

 

43 minutes ago, CompleteAgape said:

Are these junior high people posting here?  I'm done commenting on immature arguments.  If someone wants to think critically and present reasonable argument, I'm open to discussion!

If you are unhappy feel free to leave but as long as you are here keep your condescending comments to yourself.

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49 minutes ago, Origen said:

Don't you find it strange when ask a straight forward question some people ignore it?

Selective reading.  I posted earlier that in a few days I will provide not my opinion but the words of God to address the questions being posed.

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33 minutes ago, CompleteAgape said:

Selective reading.  I posted earlier that in a few days I will provide not my opinion but the words of God to address the questions being posed.

I does not matter to me what you are going to do.  You did not answer the question in a straight forward manner.

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I read the line. 

 

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The only physical thing I would do is put myself in harms way to try and help the helpless

Think critically, grab the victim and run. Hug the bad guy.  They way you speak to some other Christians does not sound loving at all. 

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15 minutes ago, Becky said:

I read the line.

 

Think critically, grab the victim and run. Hug the bad guy.

I like it.  That is better than merely getting in the way of some nut case wanting to do a person serious bodily harm as if that would stop him.

 

15 minutes ago, Becky said:

The way you speak to some other Christians does not sound loving at all. 

:classic_rolleyes:

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2 hours ago, Becky said:

I read the line. 

 

Think critically, grab the victim and run. Hug the bad guy.  They way you speak to some other Christians does not sound loving at all. 

I agree that is an excellent way to try and handle the situation that you posed; love/hug the bad guy.  Look at how Jesus and the disciples spoke to people when they were passionate about the truth.  They spoke very firm and with strong conviction.  Nothing unloving about how or what I have said.  I'm not on these forums because I enjoy arguing, I'm on here because of my love for people to learn the truth.  There is hypocrisy by Origen accusing me of condescension when he agrees that I lack credibility, have dodge a question when the truth is I did not; I gave an expounded answer, and he refereed to someone (one of God's creatures who has as much value as anyone else) as a "nut case"  Y'all are focusing on trivial issues instead of looking at the big main point which is how God would expect us to handle this hypothetical situation.  It doesn't matter what the situation is; come up with a dozen different ones and the principles Jesus taught are the same and should be applicable to all situations.  If you're really interested in having an open heart to God's word, take the time to study God's Word without prejudice and also read a post that I will submit in a few days addressing many of these controversial issues with Christianity.  I have no reason to believe y'all aren't willing to be open to God's Word regardless of where it leads your thoughts and beliefs, and so I hope that is where your heart is.  It took me months to accept His Word regarding absolute love and years of study to better understand the harsh truth and practicality of this, regardless of preconceived ideas and our American society; even Christian society.    

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I see how it could be concluded that violence or self defence is unbiblical, I see nowhere in Scripture that it's unlawful in anyway to defend your life, your home, or the weak who can't defend for themselves.

 

Take a look at how Jesus tells his disciples to go about their future lives, to take money because they'll need it, and to buy a sword if they don't have one, not just that but to sell their clothing to buy one. Luke 22:35-36.

I've heard the argument that the swords were spiritual, not real swords, but you can't buy something spiritual. Just wanted to deflate that argument before it have come up.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, CompleteAgape said:

Y'all are focusing on trivial issues instead of looking at the big main point which is how God would expect us to handle this hypothetical situation.

Just curious, Are you Trinitarian CompleteAgape?

 

Do you believe the God of the OT is the same God in the NT?

 

God bless,

William

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1 hour ago, Innerfire89 said:

I see how it could be concluded that violence or self defence is unbiblical, I see nowhere in Scripture that it's unlawful in anyway to defend your life, your home, or the weak who can't defend for themselves.

 

Take a look at how Jesus tells his disciples to go about their future lives, to take money because they'll need it, and to buy a sword if they don't have one, not just that but to sell their clothing to buy one. Luke 22:35-36.

I've heard the argument that the swords were spiritual, not real swords, but you can't buy something spiritual. Just wanted to deflate that argument before it have come up.

 

 

 

Yes, it is clear in  a number of areas that self-defense is fine.  I actually see it as an obligation to protect family and others to the best I can.  Like you said, Jesus had His disciples go out and buy real actual physical swords.  I heard the spiritual sword nonsense before too so I just wanted to be clear.  Plus, the Lord of the OT is the same Lord of the NT and the Lord of the OT was a Man of War according to Exodus and King David, a man of war, was a man after the Lord's own heart.  The Lord also liked just hunting of animals in the OT.

 

There is a time to turn the other cheek and there is a time to defend with the sword or the fist or the pistol.  To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

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On 6/10/2018 at 11:12 PM, CompleteAgape said:

There is hypocrisy by Origen accusing me of condescension when he agrees that I lack credibility, have dodge a question when the truth is I did not; I gave an expounded answer, and he refereed to someone (one of God's creatures who has as much value as anyone else) as a "nut case" 

No hypocrisy about it.  I believed your so called answer at best to be unclear, weak, vague thus lacking credibility and I was not the only one.  As for my hypothetical, you need to get real.

 

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If you're really interested in having an open heart to God's word, take the time to study God's Word without prejudice

Ah, here we go.  In other words since many don't agree with you they are clearly not interested, their hearts are not open to God's Word, and they are prejudice against God's Word when studying it.  That can be the only explanation as to why others don't have the same view as you.  It just can't be that people find your view wrong so there has to be something wrong with the way they handle Scripture.  Same old song.

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19 hours ago, CompleteAgape said:

"Would you do nothing physical to stop a person on the street, your block, from beating an old person, a child etc?"  This is ridiculous.  I did give an answer: " The only physical thing I would do is put myself in harms way to try and help the helpless." The answer is implied as NO.  I stated I would do something physical to stop a person from beating another; I would physically put myself in the way of the person being beaten.  Are these junior high people posting here?  I'm done commenting on immature arguments.  If someone wants to think critically and present reasonable argument, I'm open to discussion!

Junior high people?

You know that's rather "prejudice" many age groups bring up "valid points" I've even known a five year old to do so concerning "God's word" and the definition of what makes a statement or answer "immature" is "debatable".

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Well concerning killing and self defense and love particularly "love thy neighbor as yourself" Jesus gave a great parable on this of the good Samaritan,a man was beaten up by thieves and dieing,one person passed by and didn't have time to help,the other was fearful that thieves were about(both saw the man) and then the good Samaritan passed by noticed the man,helped to mend his wounds,brought him to an inn and paid for his lodging(basically he helped him in whatever way possible) and after the parable Jesus asked "who was the man's neighbor"?

and Peter replied the one whom helped him.

And Jesus said "thou has spoken well".

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Just now, Joefizz said:

Well concerning killing and self defense and love particularly "love thy neighbor as yourself" Jesus gave a great parable on this of the good Samaritan,a man was beaten up by thieves and dieing,one person passed by and didn't have time to help,the other was fearful that thieves were about(both saw the man) and then the good Samaritan passed by noticed the man,helped to mend his wounds,brought him to an inn and paid for his lodging(basically he helped him in whatever way possible) and after the parable Jesus asked "who was the man's neighbor"?

and Peter replied the one whom helped him.

And Jesus said "thou has spoken well".

To simplify if you see anyone in danger or in need and you "can help them" you help them otherwise you are not abiding by one of the two commandments in which all the law and prophets hang that Jesus said to follow the other is "love" the Lord thy God with all thy heart,soul,mind,and strength.

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I recall in morals and ethics the question was asked whether it was correct for a woman to behave immorally in order to save her children.

I understand this question to be similar to whether we should behave in an unchristian manner (violence) in certain circumstances.

Scripture says that the Lord doesn't give us more than we can handle / suits His purpose and that He always  provides a way out...

How can we otherwise walk in faith if  we don't have this ground to stand on?

Granted, the question is a good one from a secular point of view but redundant if one is established in Christ.

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1 hour ago, 2404 said:

I recall in morals and ethics the question was asked whether it was correct for a woman to behave immorally in order to save her children.

I understand this question to be similar to whether we should behave in an unchristian manner (violence) in certain circumstances.

Scripture says that the Lord doesn't give us more than we can handle / suits His purpose and that He always  provides a way out...

How can we otherwise walk in faith if  we don't have this ground to stand on?

Granted, the question is a good one from a secular point of view but redundant if one is established in Christ.

There are Godly men that fight wars, that defend themselves and others, and that hunt righteously.

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4 hours ago, 2404 said:

I recall in morals and ethics the question was asked whether it was correct for a woman to behave immorally in order to save her children.

I understand this question to be similar to whether we should behave in an unchristian manner (violence) in certain circumstances.

Scripture says that the Lord doesn't give us more than we can handle / suits His purpose and that He always  provides a way out...

How can we otherwise walk in faith if  we don't have this ground to stand on?

Granted, the question is a good one from a secular point of view but redundant if one is established in Christ.

Except not every use of physical force against another person is "unchristian"

 

And what was the thread you're referring to? It sounds like the question had something to do with prostitution, which is without a doubt sinful.

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