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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
northwye

Another Look At Romans 11:26

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Posted (edited)

Another Look At Romans 11: 26

 

και ουτως πας ισραηλ σωθησεται καθως γεγραπται ηξει εκ σιων ο ρυομενος και αποστρεψει ασεβειας απο ιακωβ

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: "

Focus on "και ουτως πας ισραηλ σωθησεται" "And in this way all Israel shall be saved."

See: 


οὕτως, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Number  3779. houtós, in this way, thus, so, in this manner.

Houtos refers back to what Paul says in Romans 11, prior to verses 25-26.

Paul begins Romans 11 by talking about the remnant of Israel in verses 1-6.  He says in Romans 11: 5-6 that "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.6.  And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

Here he teaches that a remnant of Old Covenant Israel has become part of God's elect by grace.  This remnant from Old Covenant Israel is made up only of people of Old Covenant Israel.  Paul is one  of this Remnant.  He says in Philippians 3: 4 that

"Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5. Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee."  All of his remnant of Israel, which God used to began his New Covenant people, were of the stock of Israel, though not all were of the tribe of Benjamin or were Pharisees, like Paul.  Peter and John were just fishermen.


But in Romans 11: 13-25 he writes about both Old Covenant Israelites and Gentiles and says that Gentiles are grafted into his metaphoric Good OliveTree of Romans 11: 24, which cannot be Old Covenant Israel because he says in II Corinthians 3: 7-13 that what he there calls the ministration of death and the  ministration of condemnation - the Old Covenant - was done away.  The Good Olive Tree of Romans 11: 24 is of the New Covenant

Then in Romans 11: 20-23   he says "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21.  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.  22.  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23.  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be "graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."

Paul is saying  in Romans 11: 6-24 that the elect of God is made up of both Gentiles and Jews who have been made into the elect by their faith.

 

In Ephesians 2:  11-15 Paul says "Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:"

 

Gentiles, who believe on Christ and in his Gospel are changed, or born again (John 3: 1-6, Romans 12: 2,  II Corinthians 5: 17, and Galatians 6-15-16) are in Ephesians 2: 13 made close to the Commonwealth of Israel but again as in Romans 11: 26 this Commonwealth  of Israel is not Old Covenant Israel..   In Ephesians 2: 15-16 saved Israelites and saved Gentiles are joined together int one body, by Christ's work on the Cross.

 

Other New Testament scriptures affirm that  saved Jews and saved Gentiles are not separated but are joined together into one Body of Christ - such as Romans 10: 12, Galatians 3: 28.     John 10: 16, Romans 12: 4-5 and Ephesians 4: 4 teach the doctrine that God has one group of his elect, not two groups.

 

The Literalist "Hermeneutic" of dispensationalism may help make dispensationalists  unable to see that the New Testament does not separate saved Jews from saved Gentiles.

 

This teaching that saved Israelites and saved Gentiles are unified and not separated in the New Testament is relevant to the interpretation of what "All Israel" is in Romans 11: 26.

 

Romans 9: 6-8 and I Corinthians 10: 18 are also relevant to the interpretation of who is "All Israel" of Romans 11: 26.

 

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."   Romans 11: 6-8

 

That Paul is teaching here that there are two Israels, an Israel of he flesh and an elect Israel, which can also be called the remnant of Israel (Romans 11: 5-6),  is supported by I Corinthians 10: 18, "Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the alter?"

 

Here is John Calvin's Commentary On Romans 11: 26 -

 

"Verse 26

26.And so all Israel, etc. Many understand this of the Jewish people, as though Paul had said, that religion would again be restored among them as before: but I extend the word Israel to all the people of God, according to this meaning, — “When the Gentiles shall come in, the Jews also shall return from their defection to the obedience of faith; and thus shall be completed the salvation of the whole Israel of God, which must be gathered from both; and yet in such a way that the Jews shall obtain the first place, being as it were the first-born in God’s family.” This interpretation seems to me the most suitable, because Paul intended here to set forth the completion of the kingdom of Christ, which is by no means to be confined to the Jews, but is to include the whole world. The same manner of speaking we find in Galatians 6:16. The Israel of God is what he calls the Church, gathered alike from Jews and Gentiles; and he sets the people, thus collected from their dispersion, in opposition to the carnal children of Abraham, who had departed from his faith.

As it is written, etc. He does not confirm the whole passage by this testimony of Isaiah, (Isaiah 59:20,) but only one clause, — that the children of Abraham shall be partakers of redemption. But if one takes this view, — that Christ had been promised and offered to them, but that as they rejected him, they were deprived of his grace; yet the Prophet’s words express more, even this, — that there will be some remnant, who, having repented, shall enjoy the favor of deliverance.

Paul, however, does not quote what we read in Isaiah, word for word;

“come,” he says, “shall a Redeemer to Sion, and to those who shall repent of iniquity in Jacob, saith the Lord.” (Isaiah 59:20.)

But on this point we need not be very curious; only this is to be regarded, that the Apostles suitably apply to their purpose whatever proofs they adduce from the Old Testament; for their object was to point but passages, as it were by the finger, that readers might be directed to the fountain itself.

But though in this prophecy deliverance to the spiritual people of God is promised, among whom even Gentiles are included; yet as the Jews are the first-born, what the Prophet declares must be fulfilled, especially in them: for that Scripture calls all the people of God Israelites, is to be ascribed to the pre-eminence of that nation, whom God had preferred to all other nations. And then, from a regard to the ancient covenant, he says expressly, that a Redeemer shall come to Sion; and he adds, that he will redeem those in Jacob who shall return from their transgression. (364) By these words God distinctly claims for himself a certain seed, so that his redemption may be effectual in his elect and peculiar nation. And though fitter for his purpose would have been the expression used by the Prophet, “shall come to Sion;” yet Paul made no scruple to follow the commonly received translation, which reads, “The Redeemer shall come forth from Mount Sion.” And similar is the case as to the second part, “He shall turn away iniquities from Jacob:” for Paul thought it enough to regard this point only, — that as it is Christ’s peculiar office to reconcile to God an apostate and faithless people, some change was surely to be looked for, lest they should all perish together."

'

 

Edited by northwye
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8 hours ago, northwye said:

The Literalist "Hermeneutic" of dispensationalism may help make dispensationalists  unable to see that the New Testament does not separate saved Jews from saved Gentiles.

 

you got it yes GIF by TheMacnabs

 

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Posted (edited)

Northwye If you do not mind I am interested to hear your take on Roman 11:28. 

 

(the full pericope is probably Romans 11:28 to Romans 11:36. Of course there are no verse divisions in the manuscripts.)

Edited by Ben Asher

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8 hours ago, northwye said:

The Good Olive Tree of Romans 11: 24 is of the New Covenant

"The traditional dispensationalist view maintains that God has not replaced Israel with the church but that God has two programs in history, one for the church and one for Israel. Traditional dispensationalism also maintains that the church consists only of believers saved between Pentecost and the rapture. The church as the body of Christ does not include Old Testament believers. Progressive dispensationalism has modified some of these views, but the traditional dispensationalist view remains very popular. Some covenant theologians have adopted a view that many dispensationalists describe as “replacement theology.” This is the idea that the church has completely replaced Israel. Jews may still be saved on an individual basis by coming to Christ, but the nation of Israel and the Jews as a people no longer have any part to play in redemptive history.... .

 

.... . However, if we are talking about true Israel, there really is no distinction. The true Israel of the Old Testament became the nucleus of the true church on the day of Pentecost. Here the analogy of the olive tree that Paul uses in Romans 11 is instructive. The tree represents the covenant people of God—Israel. Paul compares unbelieving Israel to branches that have been broken off from the olive tree (v. 17a). Believing Gentiles are compared to branches from a wild olive tree that have been grafted in to the cultivated olive tree (vv. 17b–19). The important point to notice is that God does not cut the old tree down and plant a new one (replacement theology). Neither does God plant a second new tree alongside the old tree and then graft branches from the old tree into the new tree (traditional dispensationalism). Instead, the same tree exists across the divide between Old and New Testaments. That which remains after the dead branches are removed is the true Israel. Gentile believers are now grafted into this already existing old tree (true Israel/the true church). There is only one good olive tree, and the same olive tree exists across the covenantal divide.

 

What does this mean for our understanding of the relationship between the church and Israel? It means that when true Israel was baptized by the Spirit on the day of Pentecost, true Israel became the New Testament church. Thus, there is continuity between true Israel and the church. This is why the Reformed confessions can speak of the church as existing from the beginning of the world (for example, Belgic Confession, Art. 27). Yet there is discontinuity between the church and national Israel as well, just as there was discontinuity between the faithful remnant and apostate Israel in the Old Testament." - by Keith Mathison

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

The prophecy of  Jeremiah 18: 1-6 was that God would remake Old Covenant Israel, not just take that which is the "True  Israel" out of All Israel to make the beginnings of the New Covenant.  There are teachings in the Old Testament  which point to that which became the New Covenant, and not just Jeremiah  31: 31-34.  Foe example,The several Old Testament Texts That Talk About "Circumcision of the Heart" Are Not About Something Like Literal Circumcision, But Are About Spiritual Regeneration Eventually Fulfilled In Christ (James 1: 18).  Before Christ, in Old Covenant Israel, there was not a spiritual regeneration brought about by the Holy Spirit (John 3: 5-6) which fulfilled the promise of a spiritual regeneration, which is what circumcision of the heart in the Old Testament is pointing to.

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of life, that we should be the first fruits of his
creatures. " James 1:18: ..The Greek word relating to regeneration is απεκυησεν or
apokueoi, to give birth to by the word of truth. Since the word of
truth is the source of this birth, it is a regeneration. The word of Truth awaited the coming of Jesus Christ

 

 

Edited by northwye

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Posted (edited)

""The traditional dispensationalist view maintains that God has not replaced Israel with the church but that God has two programs in history, one for the church and one for Israel."

 

William Tyndale broke from the Catholic translation of  ekklesia as Church and Tyndale consistently used "Congregation" for ekklesia,  except for Acts 14: 13 and Acts 19: 37 where he used churche, meaning a pagan place of worship. This use of congregation instead of churche  might have contributed to his being strangled at the stake by the Catholics.

 

Ekklesia is Strong's Exhaustive Concordance number 1577.  The Strong's Exhaustive  Concordance defines ekklesia as meaning "A calling out,, i.e., to a popular meeting, especially a religious  congregation, Jewish Synagogue. or Church community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both."

 

The meanig of an English word used for a Greek word in translation must have a meaning as close as possible to the meaning of the Greek word when the New Testament was written..   Congregation or assembly are English words which are closer in meaning to ekklesia than was the word church.

 

Before the New Testament was written  in Greek  ekklesia was commonly used  as a political term, meaning an assembly of citizens. In the Greek city-state the citizens were called out by the trumpet of the kerux (herald) summoning them to the ekklesia, or meeting..

 

The link to the longer definition of church in the Oxford English Dictionary is: http://civ.icelord.net/read.php?f=3&i=63650&t=63650&v=f

"CHURCH: FORMS: (a) cirice, cyrice, chiriche, churiche, chereche, (b) CIRCE, cyrce, chyrce, cirke, etc., etc.,

"The ulterior derivation has been keenly disputed. The L. circus, and a Gothic word kйlikn 'tower, upper chamber' (app. originally
Gaulish) have both been proposed (the latter suggested by the Alemannic chilihha), but are set aside as untenable; and there is now a general
agreement among scholars in referring it to the Greek word, properly kurion adj. 'of the Lord, dominicum, dominical' (f. Kurios lord), which
occurs, from the 3rd century at least, used substantively (sc. doma, or the like) = 'house of the Lord', as a name of the Christian house of
worship. Of this the earliest cited instances are in the Apostolical Constitutions (II. 59), a 300, the edict of Maximinus (303-13), cited by
Eusebius (Eccl. Hist. ix. 10) a 324, the Councils of Ancyra 314 (Canon 15), Neo-Caesarea 314-23 (Can. 5), and Laodicea (Can. 28).
Thenceforward it appears to have been in fairly common use in the East: e.g., Constantine named several churches built by him Kuriaka
(Eusebius De Laud. Const. xvii),"(Oxford English Dictionary).

CIRCE was a Greek goddess who turned men into PIGS!!"

The Oxford English Dictionary mentions the Greek goddess circe, and also says in caps in its list of spellings of church, the word CIRCE. The Catholic Encyclopedia lists circe as one spelling of church, but does not mention a possible origin of circe from the Greek goddess circe."

 

The question is whether the use pf the word church for ekklesia rather than congregation or assembly implies that all or almost all the members of a church are saved and are members of he elect of God.

 

 

Edited by northwye

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A number of the despinsational folks i know consider , the church, to be God's plan 'B' . They do not use that term but that is what it is.  The church is a gap filler because God did not know the Jewish leaders would reject Christ. Many of the   Despinsationalism branches  paint a picture of a God that needs mans help , A picture of a weak Saviour who will be replaced with the blood of bulls once again i a new temple.  As stated above, There are not 2 trees or 2 plans. We are one body from Adam to you and me. 

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My understanding of Dispensational thought is that the Church was a mystery hidden but then revealed after the refusal of their Messiah by the Jews...

 

Jesus began teaching in parables Mt 13

Promised to build His Church Mt 16

Mystery revealed Rom 16:25-26, Eph 3:4-6

 

In any case, the Church wasn't plan B which many caricature Dispensationalists with, but had been planned in the eternal ages by God and had been revealed through the Apostles.

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3 hours ago, northwye said:

""The traditional dispensationalist view maintains 

Just in case you are responding to my question please note that I am not a Dispensationalist.  I accept partial preterism or something very close to that and I am an Amillennialist or something close to that who accepts the Olive Tree Theology proposed by Dr David Stern back in the 1989. Please keep in mind that not everyone who believes that God will save Jews and bring them to faith Messiah is a straw man dispensationalist.

 

Quote

Amillennialism is also common among Protestantdenominations such as the Lutheran, Reformed, Anglican, Methodist and many Messianic Jews.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amillennialism?wprov=sfti1

 

 

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49 minutes ago, Ben Asher said:

Please keep in mind that not everyone who believes that God will save Jews and bring them to faith Messiah is a straw man dispensationalist. 

I don't think there's any question as to whether true Israel (Church) includes Jews or the Elect (Jews and Gentiles) in the modern nation of Israel. Dispensationalist seemingly mean that God saves every Jew without exception. On that point I simply ask what of all the Jews that have died up until today which have rejected Jesus Christ? True Israel, the Church includes both Jew and Gentile in which there is no distinction.

 

Is there any question that the Elect are saved by grace through faith and not by blood or Jewish descent?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, William said:

True Israel, the Church includes both Jew and Gentile 

True Israel the congregation of the Messiah indeed includes the those from the Nations(the true meaning of goyim or in English Gentile) as well as the descendants of Abraham. The is by the way was actually part of the promise given to Abram when he became Abraham. This covenant has not been replaced or passed away. The covenant given through

Moses however was provisional or temporary. 

 

1 hour ago, William said:

in which there is no distinction.

In terms of how people

get saved indeed there is no distinction.

 

However, in terms of ethnicity, cultural heritage, and thinking patterns there often(not always) remains distinctions. Which is why there are Japanese Christians, Chinese Christians, Korean Christians, African American Christians, Hispanic Christians, Arab Christians, and yes even Jewish Christians or Messianic Jews in your country. Each of these ethnic groups may have their own worship styles and genres of Music they do not all have to worship in European centric style although they

can if they wish to and some do. 

 

1 hour ago, William said:

Is there any question that the Elect are saved by grace through faith and not by blood or Jewish descent?

No that has never been the question( at least not for me)

the question rather has been will God keep his promises mentioned in the Tanakh(sic OT). A number of Christians claim the OT/Hebrew Bible has some how been made obsolete and passed away along with unfulfilled promises. Now if that is the case how could anyone trust the NT when it claims just as the Hebrew Bible often did with some of the covenants found in it that they are forever? If God lied to Noah and Abraham why trust what is said in the NT that claims to be based on the Hebrew Bible/OT that again many Christians claim to have passed away or to be obsolete?

Edited by Ben Asher

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5 hours ago, Ben Asher said:

I accept partial preterism or something very close to that and I am an Amillennialist or something close to that

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Disclaimer the posting of these notes does not in any way, form or fashion indicate an endorsement on my part of the ESV study Bible nor of the theology, point of views, ideologies, and etc found in therein. The following is posted solely for the sake of presenting various points of view and or for reference. The following are the notes from the popular ESV Study Bible on the passage under discussion.Thomas R. Schreiner wrote the notes or was responsible for the notes on the book of Romans.

 


11:26 in this way all Israel will be saved. Various interpreters have claimed that Paul is speaking of:

(1) the salvation of the church of Jesus Christ, both Jews and Gentiles, throughout history; or

(2) the saving of a remnant of Jews throughout history; or

(3) the salvation of the end-time generation of the Jewish people in the future.

 

The first view is unlikely since throughout chs. 9–11 Israel and Gentiles are distinct ethnic entities. Furthermore, in 11:25 Israel refers to ethnic Israel, and it is difficult to see how the referent could suddenly change in v. 26. Finally, v. 28 indicates that ethnic Israel is still distinguished from Gentiles, for “they” in v. 28 clearly refers to ethnic Israel. The third view, that Paul refers to the salvation of Israel at the end of history, seems most likely because:

(1) it fits with the promises of God’s future work in vv. 12 and 15;

(2) it is difficult to see how the salvation of a remnant of Jews all through history would qualify as a mystery;

(3) the future salvation of ethnic Israel at the end of history accords with the climactic character of this passage; and

(4) it demonstrates finally and fully how God is faithful to fulfill his saving promises to his people (9:6). “All Israel” does not necessarily refer to every single Jewish person but to a very large number, at least the majority of Jews. The Deliverer coming from Zion probably refers to Christ (cf. 1 Thess. 1:10), suggesting that the Jews will be saved near or at the second coming.

 

11:27 when I take away their sins.

The salvation of Israel fits with God’s covenantal promise to save his people and to forgive their sins.

 

11:28 for your sake.

The unbelief of Israel has benefited the Gentiles, i.e., this is the period of history in which Gentiles are being saved, while most of Israel remains in unbelief. But God’s electing promise given to their forefathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be fulfilled in the future.

 

11:29 Israel will be saved because God never revokes his saving promises.

Gifts (Gk. charisma) means things freely given by God, and the word can be used to refer to different kinds of gifts. Sometimes the word refers to spiritual gifts for ministry (as in 1:11; 12:6; 1 Cor. 12:4) and sometimes to the gift of salvation (Rom. 5:15–16; 6:23), but the context here favors yet a third kind of “gifts,” namely, the unique blessings given to Israel which Paul mentioned at the beginning of this long section (9:4–5). calling (Gk. klēsis, using the same root as Gk. eklogē, “election,” in 11:28; also in 9:11; 11:7) refers here to calling to salvation (cf. 8:30; 9:11, 24).

 

11:30–31 Salvation history is structured to feature God’s great mercy.

God saved the Gentiles when one would expect only the Jews to be saved, but in the future he will amaze all by his grace again by saving the Jews, so that it will be clear that everyone’s salvation is by mercy alone. The final now in the text does not mean the promise to the Jews is now fulfilled but that the promise of Jewish salvation could be fulfilled at any time.


Crossway Bibles. The ESV Study Bible. Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2008.

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Disclaimer the post of these notes does not in any way, form or fashion indicate an endorsement on my part of the NIV study Bible nor of the translations, translation philosophy, theology, point of views, ideologies, and etc found in therein. The following are the notes from the popular NIV Study Bible on the passage under discussion.Douglas J. Moo wrote the notes or was responsible for the notes on the book of Romans. The following is posted solely for the sake of presenting various points of view and or for reference.


11:25 mystery. A word Paul uses for an element in God’s plan that the OT does not clearly reveal (16:25; 1 Cor 2:1, 7; 4:1; 13:2; 14:2; 15:51; Eph 1:9; 3:3, 4, 9; 5:32; 6:19; Col 1:26, 27; 2:2; 4:3; 2 Thess 2:7 [“secret”]; 1 Tim 3:9 [“deep truths”], 16). This mystery is the process by which God is using Israel’s “hardening” and the salvation of Gentiles to save all Israel (vv. 25b–26a). until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. Probably when all elect Gentiles come into God’s kingdom.

 

11:26 all Israel will be saved. “All Israel” need not mean every single Israelite. The OT uses this expression for a significant or representative number of Israelites (e.g., Josh 7:25; 2 Sam 16:22; Dan 9:11; cf. also Mishnah Sanhedrin 10:1). There are three main ways to explain this promise about one of the important results of God’s providential work in history:

(1) God saves all his elect people, both Jews and Gentiles, as they respond in faith to God’s grace throughout history. “Israel” would then refer to the church (see Gal 6:16 and note for this possibility).

(2) God saves all elect Jews as they respond in faith to God’s grace throughout history.

(3) God will save a significant number of Jews at the end of history. Whichever of these Paul has in mind, the salvation will be—as it always is since the coming of Christ into the world—through faith in Christ (10:9–13). The deliverer will come from Zion. Either Jesus’ first or second coming.

 

11:28 they are enemies for your sake. God is using the Jewish people’s estrangement from him to bring salvation to Gentiles (v. 11). they are loved. The striking juxtaposition of “enemies” and “loved” sums up the heart of Paul’s teaching about the Jewish people in this chapter.

 

11:32 all. Not every single person, but every kind of person—Jew and Gentile alike.

 

11:33–36 Doxology. Paul fittingly concludes his sweeping description of God’s plan of salvation with a doxology that expresses wonder and awe at what God is doing.

 

11:33–35 No one can fully comprehend God, who has no counselors or creditors.


Moo, Douglas J. “The Letters and Revelation.” NIV Zondervan Study Bible: Built on the Truth of Scripture and Centered on the Gospel Message. Ed. D. A. Carson. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2015. 2314.

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It looks like this forum does not number the posts on a thread.  I want to show part of a post here by William:

 

"However, if we are talking about true Israel, there really is no distinction. The true Israel of the Old Testament became the nucleus of the true church on the day of Pentecost. Here the analogy of the olive tree that Paul uses in Romans 11 is instructive. The tree represents the covenant people of God—Israel. Paul compares unbelieving Israel to branches that have been broken off from the olive tree (v. 17a). Believing Gentiles are compared to branches from a wild olive tree that have been grafted in to the cultivated olive tree (vv. 17b–19). The important point to notice is that God does not cut the old tree down and plant a new one (replacement theology). Neither does God plant a second new tree alongside the old tree and then graft branches from the old tree into the new tree (traditional dispensationalism). Instead, the same tree exists across the divide between Old and New Testaments."

 

The New Testament does not use the term "True Israel."  Paul writes about the Commonwealth of Israel in Ephesians 2: 12, about "the children of the promise who are counted for the Seed" in Romans 9: 8, "the children of he flesh which are not the children of God" in Romans 9: 8. "Israel  after the flesh" in  I Corinthians 10: 18, "the good olive tree" in Romans 11: 24, "the body of Christ" in Ephesians 4: 12, "God's elect" in Romans 8: 33 etc, and "the Israel of God" in Galatians 6: 15-16.  Paul  writes about a "remnant according to the election of grace" in Romans 11: 1-6 which is made up entirely of Israelites.

 

Where does "True Israel" fit in the above list of identities of the elect of God?

 

But in the paragraph quoted above - "the same tree exists across the divide between Old and New Testaments."  Is not this saying that the Good Olive Tree" in Romans 11: 24 is Old Covenant Israel?  The problem is that this doctrine leaves out Christ's work on the Cross which provides the spiritual regeneration for the New Covenant.

 

Mark 8: 31-33 says: "And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
32. And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.
33. But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men."

Luke 18: 31-34: "Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32. For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33. And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34. And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken."

Christ's followers did not understand the spiritual power that was to come out of his death and resurrection.

"And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
33. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all." Acts 4: 31-33.

 

John 3: 1-6 is about the spiritual regeneration available to the believer from Christ's resurrection.  "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.  6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."  John 3: 5-7

 

The resurrection shows that Chris has the power to forgive our sins and to raise us from the dead to immortal life. It also indicates that Christ has the power to change or transform us.

Romans 12: 2 talks about - the μεταμορφουσθε τη ανακαινωσει του νοος- the metamorphosis by the renewing of your mind.

"But after that the kindness and love of our saviour God to man ward
appeared, 5 not of the deeds of righteousness which we wrought, but of
his mercy, he saved us, by the fountain of the new birth, and with the
renewing of the holy ghost,"   Titus 3: 5    The important Greek word on regeneration is ,
παλιγγενεσιας, or paliggenesia - a new birth, regeneration,
renewal."

 

"Blessed be God, the father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which through
his abundant mercy begat us again unto a lively hope, by the
resurrection of Jesus Christ from death, 4 to enjoy an inheritance
immortal, and undefiled, and that perisheth not; reserved in heaven
for you 5 which are kept by the power of God through salvation, which
salvation is prepared already to be showed in the last time." I Peter
1: 3-5.

The word important for regeneration is begat, from αναγεννησας, and
see:

he next verse on regeneration is James 1: 18, Of his own will begat
he us with the word of life, that we should be the first fruits of his
creatures. " The Greek word relating to regeneration is απεκυησεν or
apokueoi, to give birth to by the word of truth. Since the word of
truth is the source of this birth, it is a regeneration.

John 1: 13: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to be
the sons of God: in that they believed on his name: 13 which were born
not of blood nor of the will of the flesh, nor yet of the will of man:
but of God."

The key word for regeneration is εγεννηθησαν, or gennaó, meaning
"beget, bring forth, give birth to" from:
Since it says "were born not of
blood nor of the will of the flesh, nor yet of the will of man: but of
God," this is about regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Thanks @northwye You have put this together very well . Using my head to grasp what becomes totally emotional for me has been a good read. 😉

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Disclaimer The following points of view on the passage under discussion is posted solely for the sake of presenting various points of view and or for reference. The theology thus presented here is that of Barrett, C. K.


26 The content of the secret, hinted at in vv. 7, 12, and in the allegory, is now stated. The secret is that a partial hardening has fallen upon Israel, and will remain until the full number of the Gentiles has come in; when this is done, all Israel will be saved. ‘Partial’ renders a phrase which recurs in 15:15, 24; 2 Cor. 1:14; it may be adjectival (as, apparently, here), or adverbial. The ‘hardening’ (cf. v. 7) was only partial, since there was a remnant that believed; that is, the hardening was partial in the sense that it was only a part (though the larger part) of Israel that was hardened. Through this hardening arose the Gentile mission (vv. 11, 28), and it will continue until its purpose is complete. But what does the ‘full number of the Gentiles’ mean? From v. 12 it appears that it must mean ‘totality’ or ‘complement’; but this might mean either ‘all Gentiles that ever were born’ or ‘all Gentiles intended by God to belong to the elect’. Only the context as a whole can decide between these alternatives, which indeed cannot be taken as strict alternatives, since the ‘number intended by God’ might be identical with the ‘total number’.Paul continues with the assertion that all Israel will be saved. This sentence contains two problems. It is introduced by the words And so (καὶ οὕτως). This may be taken in one of three ways;

 

(1) it may simply express continuity of operation;

(2) it may mean, At that time (when the full number of Gentiles has come in);

(3) it may mean, In this way (as the effect of God’s calling of the Gentiles).

 

It suits the context to combine (2) and (3), which are quite compatible: When the Gentiles, because the Gentiles, have been included in God’s people. The second problem is the meaning of All Israel. In what sense does Paul mean ‘all Israel’? ‘Israel as a whole’ or ‘each several Israelite’? There is an interesting parallel to Paul’s words in Sanhedrin, x. 1: All Israelites have a share in the world to come. This statement certainly does not refer to each several Israelite, for it proceeds to enumerate a long list of exceptions: from ‘all Israel’ must be subtracted all Sadducees, heretics, magicians, the licentious, and many more. It means that Israel as a whole is destined for eternal life in the Age to Come. This, of course, does not prove that Paul’s meaning was the same; but when his two statements, about Gentiles and Jews, are taken together, it seems probable that he is thinking in representative terms (see on the rest of this paragraph, and on 15:19); first the remnant of Israel, then Gentiles, finally Israel as a whole.

 

27 That Israel will be delivered, by the removal of sin, is proved from Scripture: as it is written, ‘Out of Zion shall come a deliverer, and he shall remove from Jacob all his (these two words are a sense-addition to the Greek—it is clearly not intended that the deliverer will remove only some, or some other) impieties; and this is the covenant I will make with them, when I take away their sins’. This is a composite quotation, from Isa. 59:20 and 27:9; compare Ps. 14:7; Jer. 31:33. It may be (cf. 9:33) that Paul drew it from a Testimony Book, or that he himself, subconsciously perhaps, combined the two passages. The two verses make the same point: God has not done with Israel, but is preparing a new covenant of salvation in which Israel’s sins will be done away. It is because Scripture itself affirms this that Paul can predict that ‘all Israel will be saved’.The paragraph is brought to an end with two balanced sentences, each constructed on the same pattern. Each contains a pair of antithetical clauses explained by a ‘for’ (γάρ) clause. Thus:

 

  {A—Enemies, for your advantage (v. 28)
  B—Beloved, on account of the fathers (v. 28)
    C—For God does not … (v. 29)


  {A′—You once … but now (v. 30)
  B′—They now … but now (v. 31)
    C′—For God has shut up … (v. 32)

 

The rhetorical pattern suggests that Paul is writing with care as well as feeling, and his words must be carefully marked.
28 In relation to God the Jews are at the present time both enemies and beloved. As far as the present results of the preaching of the Gospel go, they are enemies—for your advantage. This is simply a statement of the facts which have already been described. The Gospel was preached to the Jews, and they rejected it, thereby placing themselves under God’s wrath, since the law, which they preferred to the way of faith, produces wrath (4:15).

 

Their rejection of the Gospel, however, led to the mission to the Gentiles, and thereby turned out to be to the advantage of the Gentiles. But this is not the whole truth; when you bear in mind the fact of God’s election, they are beloved, on account of the fathers. ‘If some have proved unbelieving, will their unbelief make void the faithfulness of God?’ (3:3). They are the race whom God elected to be his peculiar people, and their election rests in no way upon their merits or achievements. It is true that when Paul says that they are beloved ‘on account of the fathers’ his language recalls the Rabbinic doctrine of the merit (zekuth) of the fathers, which forms a treasury upon which their sinful descendants can draw; but the resemblance is only superficial, for Paul is not speaking of human merit but of divine election. To say that they are loved because they are their fathers’ children would contradict chapter 9. The key is the fact of God’s election (κατὰ τὴν ἐκλογήν). It is not the merits of the fathers but God’s electing grace that is in question. Paul proceeds to underline this. 29 For God does not go back on his acts of grace (for this meaning of the word—χάρισμα—see on 5:16) and his calling.

 

This is the explanation not simply of God’s love for Israel, but also of the paradoxical fact that the same people may be at the same time enemies and beloved. It is at this point also that we may go back to 9:6–13 and take up Paul’s argument about God’s freedom in election, and the true Israel. It is often supposed that Paul here contradicts what he has said in ch. 9: here, the Jews are beloved on account of the fathers, whereas there it is proved that God is not bound by any human line of descent and is free to call and create his people as he pleases. The underlying truth which connects the two apparently contradictory lines of thought is that, for God, freedom is freedom to act in grace, and that since he is ever the same he never regrets or revokes the acts of grace which he performs, and never annuls the vocation he prepares for men and nations. Israel is always called. This is quite the reverse of saying that men by their descent, nationality, or other qualifications, are able to establish a claim upon God and so limit his freedom. If (to put the matter in a paradox) God’s freedom is limited at all, it is limited only in the fact of his being God—the gracious God who delights in mercy, and whose wrath (as we shall presently see) exists to serve the ends of his mercy.

 


Barrett, C. K. The Epistle to the Romans. Rev. ed. London: Continuum, 1991. Black’s New Testament Commentary.

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Calvin's Commentaries, Vol. 38: Romans, tr. by John King, [1847-50], at sacred-texts.com

 

Calvin on Romans 11:26

And so all Israel, etc. Many understand this of the Jewish people, as though Paul had said, that religion would again be restored among them as before: but I extend the word Israel to all the people of God, according to this meaning, — “When the Gentiles shall come in, the Jews also shall return from their defection to the obedience of faith; and thus shall be completed the salvation of the whole Israel of God, which must be gathered from both; and yet in such a way that the Jews shall obtain the first place, being as it were the first-born in God’s family.” This interpretation seems to me the most suitable, because Paul intended here to set forth the completion of the kingdom of Christ, which is by no means to be confined to the Jews, but is to include the whole world. The same manner of speaking we find in Ga 6:16. The Israel of God is what he calls the Church, gathered alike from Jews and Gentiles; and he sets the people, thus collected from their dispersion, in opposition to the carnal children of Abraham, who had departed from his faith.

 

Calvin on Romans 11:28 and 11:29

Romans11:28.

With regard indeed to the gospel, etc. He shows that the worst thing in the Jews ought not to subject them to the contempt of the Gentiles. Their chief crime was unbelief: but Paul teaches us, that they were thus blinded for a time by God’s providence, that a way to the gospel might be made for the Gentiles;  368 and that still they were not for ever excluded from the favor of God. He then admits, that they were for the present alienated from God on account of the gospel, that thus the salvation, which at first was deposited with them, might come to the Gentiles; and yet that God was not unmindful of the covenant which he had made with their fathers, and by which he testified that according to his eternal purpose he loved that nation: and this he confirms by this remarkable declaration, — that the grace of the divine calling cannot be made void; for this is the import of the words, —

 

Romans 11:29.

The gifts and calling of God are without repentance. He has mentioned gifts and calling; which are to be understood, according to a figure in grammar,  369 as meaning the gift of calling: and this is not to be taken for any sort of calling but of that, by which God had adopted the posterity of Abraham into covenant; since this is especially the subject here, as he has previously, by the word, election, designated the secret purpose of God, by which he had formerly made a distinction between the Jews and the Gentiles.  370 For we must bear this in mind, — that he speaks not now of the election of individuals, but of the common adoption of the whole nation, which might seem for a time, according to the outward appearance, to have failed, but had not been cut up by the roots. As the Jews had fallen from their privilege and the salvation promised them, that some hope might remain to the remnant, Paul maintains that the purpose of God stands firm and immovable, by which he had once deigned to choose them for himself as a peculiar nation. Since then it cannot possibly be, that the Lord will depart from that covenant which he made with Abraham,

“I will be the God of thy seed,” (Ge 17:7,)

it is evident that he has not wholly turned away his kindness from the Jewish nation.

He does not oppose the gospel to election, as though they were contrary the one to the other, for whom God has chosen he calls; but inasmuch as the gospel had been proclaimed to the Gentiles beyond the expectation of the world, he justly compares this favor with the ancient election of the Jews, which had been manifested so many ages before: and so election derives its name from antiquity; for God had in past ages of the world chosen one people for himself.

On account of the Fathers, he says not, because they gave any cause for love, but because God’s favor had descended from them to their posterity, according to the tenor of the covenant, “Thy God and the God of thy seed.” ...

 

Calvin's Commentaries, Vol. 38: Romans, tr. by John King, [1847-50], at sacred-texts.com

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Romans 11:25-29 KJVS
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. [26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: [27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. [28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. [29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 

 

Zechariah 13:8-9 KJVS
[8] And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord , two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. [9] And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

 

 

Zechariah 14:2-4,8-9,16-17 KJVS
[2] For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. [3] Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. [4] And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. [8] And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. [9] And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord , and his name one. [16] And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. [17] And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

 

 

What does one do with much ( a few listed above) of the unfulfilled prophecies of the OT in order to fit them into some of the above theories mentioned?

Spiritulize them?

Abrogate?

Place the believing Gentiles into them?

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1 hour ago, northwye said:

It looks like this forum does not number the posts on a thread.

I see this is post #15. 🤓

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49 minutes ago, Solas said:

What does one do with much ( a few listed above) of the unfulfilled prophecies of the OT in order to fit them into some of the above theories mentioned?

A simple understanding of who " them" are .  "Them" are the people of God.  It was not only Hebrews by blood that escaped from Egypt.  

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28 minutes ago, Becky said:

A simple understanding of who " them" are .  "Them" are the people of God.  It was not only Hebrews by blood that escaped from Egypt.  

I agree this "them" would probably also be equal to they who are "enemies of the Gospel for your sake but..."(Romans 11:28). Clearly, no Christian can claim to be an enemy of the Gospel (well maybe some very liberal ones can!).

  • Haha 2

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Becky said:

A simple understanding of who " them" are .  "Them" are the people of God.  It was not only Hebrews by blood that escaped from Egypt.  

I was using 'them' as a pronoun for the 'unfulfilled' prophecies of the OT (I listed a couple of them).

Edited by Solas
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@Solas  

Gal 3:29  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. 

You are in Christ so you are Abraham's right? 

 

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1 hour ago, Becky said:

A simple understanding of who " them" are .  "Them" are the people of God.  It was not only Hebrews by blood that escaped from Egypt.  

 

10 minutes ago, Solas said:

I was using 'them' as a pronoun for the 'unfulfilled' prophecies of the OT (I listed a couple of them).

After re-reading your post i understand you were using the word 'them ' to counter the verses posted above 😕 DUH get it now 

When any of us read anything we come to that reading with ideas in our heads . Our minds will work to 'fit' those ideas into our preconceived thoughts. This in not a bad thing it is just normal. Even after asking God to make His Word fresh, and clear my mind of dispy it was years of effort to to remove the preconceived ideas. There is a lot of SDA in your head. 

 

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