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kunoichi9280

How do we know we got the right canon?

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*note- I'm not questioning that we have the right canon*

 

Hi, 

Sorry to post when I haven't been around much.  I hope this is the right place to post this question. I browse frequently, but I'm still learning and so many of the discussions are beyond me.  I'm sure this one will be too but it's bugging me so I'm going to give it a go. 

 

I'm an ex-Catholic, and one of the strongest arguments for me when I converted to Catholicism in the first place was the "Church chose the canon of Scripture and if you don't accept that they could be wrong on that then why not accept their authority in other areas?"  Now that subject has came up again in a discussion with a friend of mine and I'm kind of at a loss.  I gave the "Church recognized the canon" argument but honestly I feel it's really weak.  How do we know they didn't "recognize" wrong?  What is the authority by which we can determine the books we have are the right ones, no more and no less?  And there was debate over which books belong, although Catholics really overstate how much debate.  My friend says that this is why we need the Church; I don't believe that but don't know where to go on this particular issue.

 

Thanks in advance for any info you can give. 

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6 hours ago, kunoichi9280 said:

*note- I'm not questioning that we have the right canon*

 

Hi, 

Sorry to post when I haven't been around much.  I hope this is the right place to post this question. I browse frequently, but I'm still learning and so many of the discussions are beyond me.  I'm sure this one will be too but it's bugging me so I'm going to give it a go. 

 

I'm an ex-Catholic, and one of the strongest arguments for me when I converted to Catholicism in the first place was the "Church chose the canon of Scripture and if you don't accept that they could be wrong on that then why not accept their authority in other areas?"  Now that subject has came up again in a discussion with a friend of mine and I'm kind of at a loss.  I gave the "Church recognized the canon" argument but honestly I feel it's really weak.  How do we know they didn't "recognize" wrong?  What is the authority by which we can determine the books we have are the right ones, no more and no less?  And there was debate over which books belong, although Catholics really overstate how much debate.  My friend says that this is why we need the Church; I don't believe that but don't know where to go on this particular issue.

 

Thanks in advance for any info you can give. 

I think you've asked a question that arises in the mind of many a member of the faith. 

The scholars I've read or heard in lecture series tell us that the autographs, the original writings, are lost to us. I personally believe they're not lost entirely but are likely in the possession of either the Vatican or a rich family with long years of links to early religious history. 

  • http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/canon.cfm

 

  • http://christianhistoryinstitute.org/magazine/article/how-we-got-our-bible-timeline

That being said, if one researches how the canon arrived they come to realize there were huge numbers of scrolls, papyrus, other writings, that were considered when early men in many councils that spanned years decided to conceive of one source of materials relating God's message to the world. 

This is why in the end the title for the total books, 66 for the Protestant version, 73 for the Catholic because it contains the Apocrypha. As did the 1611 KJV until they were removed, the collection of writings were called, Holy Bible. Not, "God's Word". Holy Book. 

Because the writings considered were all written by men, were chosen to be worthy of canonization by men, and were then later deemed inerrant. This was a notion originating in the authorship of A. A. Hodge and B. B. Warfield in their 1881 article “Inspiration.”

 

God is without error. Man is not. 

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Thanks for the links so far.  Please keep the information coming; I won't have computer access for a day or two but I want to hear peoples' thoughts and information on this. 

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Two more opinions on the answer to o this question:

 

(1) Ministry, International Journal for Pastors. John C. Peckham

WWW.MINISTRYMAGAZINE.ORG

Diverse and competing definitions and interpretations regarding the canon exist in scholarship. Check out the reason for such diverse interpretation.

 

 

 

(2)The Canon of Scripture by Samuel Waldron

WWW.MONERGISM.COM

 

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For starters, long before there was a single 'bible', the Four Gospels we have today had been gathered together and circulated as a single volume and used in the Churches at places like Antioch and Corinth and Rome, where there were still people alive who could verify that "yes, these are the actual letters that we received from the original writers."  So the 4 gospels we have, and only the 4 gospels that we have, are the gospels used by the original apostles and the churches that they founded.  That is a pretty strong argument that we have the right Gospels and any other gospels SHOULD be excluded.

 

The exact same story holds true for the Letters of Paul, which were circulated as a combined book (with Hebrews at the end) among Churches that Paul visited and to which the original letters were sent.  Thus all of the writings from Paul are from Paul and have been read at churches just as we do today from the very beginning. 

 

This indicates that the Gospels, the Letters of Paul and Hebrews have always been used by the apostolic churches as scriptures.  That leaves only a very tiny number of letters to even debate about If they belong or not.  Is there anything needed for salvation that cannot be found in the Gospels and letters of Paul?  Is there any important doctrine that cannot be supported from the Gospels and letters of Paul?  Then anything that contradicts the Gospels and Letters of Paul must contradict the original apostolic teaching, and does not belong in Holy Scripture.  Fortunately, nothing in the current 66 books do. (I am ignorant of the details of the contents of the Apocrypha, so I cannot comment on those other specific books). Books like the Gospel of Thomas, do contradict the other Gospels and were not used by the original Apostolic churches and so, they do not belong.  In many cases, such works can be shown to have been written centuries after the events described, making them a work of fiction rather than an eyewitness account.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/29/2019 at 12:30 PM, kunoichi9280 said:

I'm an ex-Catholic, and one of the strongest arguments for me when I converted to Catholicism in the first place was the "Church chose the canon of Scripture and if you don't accept that they could be wrong on that then why not accept their authority in other areas?"

When I hear this argument from Roman Catholics, I usually remind them that the Jews had their Canon long before the Roman Church confirmed what was already inspired by God. Most everything in the NT can be found in the OT and speaking of the OT Scriptures Paul states...

 

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
(2Ti 3:16-17)
 

As far as Rome's claim of giving us the Scriptures go...

 

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. (Rom 3:1-2)
 

Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; (Rom 9:4)
 

 

Edited by Solas
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I’ve tried twice before but lost my response to the Invisible Internet Ghosts. But I’ll use my office software this time.

 

The power of our Triune Elohim is completely without limit and there is no excuse for a Christian forgetting that in any circumstance once they have matured beyond the Baby Christian Stage, usually found at some point before the first five years in the Faith if said Babe is prone to study.

 

As I have written, often, on quite a few forums since '95, I hold neither of the major positions do, please take note of the next word, complete justice to Yashuah ha'Mashiah nor the Gospel of the Scriptures.  However, they both, for this Layman Teacher, like my belief, fall within the pale of orthodoxy and cause no major concern about Salvation.

Teenage

I am a Biblicist and Biblicists believe there is Free Will as well as Predestination.  The Bible teaches both as fact and YHWH does not mislead His Children.  The issue is the lack of seeking answers from Yashuah and His Father, YHWH through Ruah, the Holy Spirit.

 

I feel the first fact that needs grasping is there is a division in time between the recording the Jewish Bible, now, incorrectly, known as the Old Testament and the Final Renewing of the covenant between YHWH and Mankind, misnamed as The New Testament.Teenage

 

The Abrahamic Covenant was not dismissed when YHWH renewed, expanded, if you will, but rather it was Renewed and in doing so YHWH expanded, in a specific manor, the requirements through the 613 directions on living a Holy Life before YHWH.

 

Likewise, many Heretical False Teachers instruct that this "New Covenant" superseded the old one, never even understanding YHWH had a Covenant between Adam and Himself that was renewed with Abraham and later, renewed/expanded with Noah.

 

If you have issue with seeing this renewing of the Single Covenant between YHWH and man, established and governed by YHWH, please, try not to attempt dragging me into a vain debate without you going to a Bible Source and purchasing the version of your choice with an excellent Chain Reference.  I prefer the Thompson Chain Reference but there are other good works to study with.

 

Using the good chain reference trace any New Testament Verse Reference and after tracing a few of them to their origin a body learns that without the Bible Yashuah taught Christianity from this Renewed (New) Covenant (Testament) has no legs for foundation to stand on.  The Holy Ẅörd of our Elohim is of a single major context folding many Life Lessons (Minor Contexts) within itself.

 

Now, about the, now, major distraction within the Body of Yashuah.  Both major positions are taught... which is dominant?  Both are taught and stand hand in hand, side by side, each aiding the other.

 

The Time/Space Continuum we live within was created by YHWH through Yashuah. (Please read through the Bible, all of it, paying particular attention to Genesis, chapter, 1 & 2 and John 1:1-5)

 

Our Elohim, from outside our Time/Space Continuum created said continuum for us to exist and and serve Him within.  In  2Pet 3:8 and other addresses in Scripture we learn Time is meaningless and form the past 29 years of study I have been taught by Ruah that Our Elohim is without limit or confinement.  This has led me to understand that YHWH, our Elohim, was and is in the Past, the Present and the Future before He created anything of or for us.

 

I.e. Before I walked, heart broken by YHWH, off the stage, to go serve Him, somewhere around six thousand years ago, He knew I would exercise my free will and would choose to leave the Popular Life and choose Him to serve over all the fine tasting drinks, beautiful women and all of the benefits, highs and adornments that go with being worshipped and adored.  He knew and recorded my name in the Book of Life before I was born or even considered the pleasure available with and from 18 year old ladies just learning the wicked ways of living in and through the houses of Satan.

 

YHWH has two wills described in the Holy Scriptures. The first is YHWH’s Perfect Will and the second is the most visible in this world, His Permissive Will. Because YHWH is not bound to the Present but moves freely outside of and within the constraints of any understood and not understandable contiuum within and without to Space/Time Continuu we exist within at this time.

 

There is nothing our created minds know or do not know that limit our Elohim. To have been Gifted of Elohim with the Faith to believe and yet not believe that nothing happens without the Hand of YHWH upon it is, simply, no depth of truth in that faith and thus, useless. Elohim has seen that we have His Word to guide us. He has also provided the correct books for us.

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On 5/6/2019 at 9:49 PM, Solas said:

When I hear this argument from Roman Catholics, I usually remind them that the Jews had their Canon long before the Roman Church confirmed what was already inspired by God.

The Catholics use the Apocrypha so how could they've the correct selection? Though the Apocrypha was already completed and in circulation during Jesus' life time did He ever mentioned or teach from them nor had any Apostles?

 

Luke 11:51 has the order of books in the Jewish OT, "From the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation"

 

II Chron. 24:20-22 Zechariah is the last martyr according to the Jewish canonical order,

"20 Then the Spirit of God came on Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest; and he stood above the people and said to them, “Thus God has said, ‘Why do you transgress the commandments of the Lord and do not prosper? Because you have forsaken the Lord, He has also forsaken you.’ ”

21 So they conspired against him and at the command of the king they stoned him 1to death in the court of the house of the Lord.

22 Thus Joash the king did not remember the kindness which his father Jehoiada had shown him, but he murdered his son. And as he died he said, “May the Lord see and 1avenge!”"

 

Luke 24:44 has the books which are included in the OT, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled,"

 

On the NT I recommend a book but it's the only one in which I have read on the subject of how we got the NT:

 

Amazon Recommendation:


From God To Us: How We Got Our Bible

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On 5/7/2019 at 12:49 PM, Solas said:

I usually remind them that the Jews had their Canon long before the Roman Church confirmed what was already inspired by God.

Excellent point!

 

Until the invention of the printing press, the Catholics actually had nothing whatsoever to do with the preservation of the Hebrew Bible. That, of course, changed in 1517 when Daniel Bomberg printed the first edition of what is now known as the Mikraot Gedolot/The Rabbinic Bible with the approval of Pope Leo X.

On 5/7/2019 at 12:49 PM, Solas said:

and speaking of the OT Scriptures Paul states...

 

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
(2Ti 3:16-17)

Another salient point!

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