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atpollard

What's wrong with Philip?

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Posted (edited)

Acts Chapter 2:

[Acts 2:38-39 NASB] 38 Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

 

Acts Chapter 8:

[Acts 8:4-8 NASB] 4 Therefore, those who had been scattered went about preaching the word. 5 Philip went down to the city of Samaria and [began] proclaiming Christ to them. 6 The crowds with one accord were giving attention to what was said by Philip, as they heard and saw the signs which he was performing. 7 For [in the case of] many who had unclean spirits, they were coming out [of them] shouting with a loud voice; and many who had been paralyzed and lame were healed. 8 So there was much rejoicing in that city.

 

[Acts 8:9-13 NASB] 9 Now there was a man named Simon, who formerly was practicing magic in the city and astonishing the people of Samaria, claiming to be someone great; 10 and they all, from smallest to greatest, were giving attention to him, saying, "This man is what is called the Great Power of God." 11 And they were giving him attention because he had for a long time astonished them with his magic arts. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. 13 Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.

 

[Acts 8:14-17 NASB] 14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they [began] laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

 

 

What was wrong with Philip's baptism that it did not result in the promise of Acts 2?

 

 

Edited by atpollard
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1 hour ago, atpollard said:

What was wrong with Philip's baptism that it did not result in the promise of Acts 2?

G'morning!

 

What makes anyone think that they (in question) did not receive the Acts 2 promised gift of the Holy Spirit?

 

I see no reason to suspect that in Acts 2 those did not receive the forgiveness of sins and regeneration which is made possible through the Holy Spirit.

 

However, pre-Pentecost the Holy Spirit equipped people for office or to perform a task regardless of salific standing.

 

I think the gift(s) of the Holy Spirit which they did not receive in Acts 8 were to do with being equipped for the Great Commission in way of Evangelism. Not everyone is equipped for various offices such as Pastor, Teacher, Evangelist, Missionary, etc. In my opinion God needs the pews filled too.

 

Lastly, I caution anyone considering that grace is so fixed to proper ceremonial processes that grace cannot be conferred with error. If a priest should stumble during the baptism or be found with fault is the baptism any less legitimate?

 

On a further note, I think these verses should make every zealous Christian pause before setting out to evangelize without any training or consideration of the word. God uses ordinary means today, these signs which were given to authenticate the office of Apostle etc have ceased. We cannot expect a matrix style download of knowledge or the gift of tongues which occurred to fulfill prophecy and to establish the foundation of the church (Canon) ~ my 2 cents.

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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, William said:

What makes anyone think that they (in question) did not receive the Acts 2 promised gift of the Holy Spirit?

Acts 8:14-16 "... they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

Edited by atpollard

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@atpollard

 

What do the Scriptures say in Act 2? 

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27 minutes ago, atpollard said:

Acts 8:14-16 "... they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

Acts 19 is more explicit. If you note they were baptized in Jesus name and not the Holy Spirit. Throughout the OT what does it mean when the Holy Spirit comes upon someone? I am convinced apart from salvation these verses are pertinent to certain offices and gifts which not all believers receive. The text states that!

 

These men were already followers of Christ, did they not receive the Holy Spirit (regeneration) and repent? Obviously, at least to me there is a distinction between the gift of the Holy Spirit (the gift is God) and the gifts of the Holy Spirit which equip one for offices. 

 

19:1 While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul went through the inland regions and came to Ephesus. He found some disciples there 19:2 and said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They replied, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 19:3 So Paul said, “Into what then were you baptized?” “Into John’s baptism,” they replied. 19:4 Paul said, “John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus.” 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, 19:6 and when Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they began to speak in tongues and to prophesy. 19:7 (Now there were about twelve men in all.) [NET Bible]

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4 minutes ago, Becky said:

@atpollard

 

What do the Scriptures say in Act 2? 

I was not chasing after 'tongues', but I definitely had these verses from Acts 2 in mind ...

 

[Acts 2:38-39 NASB] 38 Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

 

The obvious assumption (to this simple mind) from those verses in Acts is that the sincere repentence of a sinner followed by an actual water baptism will be rewarded by God with the Holy Spirit that was the promised seal of God's ownership.  As far as I know Philip was as qualified as any Apostle to preach and baptize, so why (according to Acts 8 ) had God not sealed the believers until Paul and John arrived?

 

It just seems odd, and I don't understand why. (not that salvation hangs in the balance, but it seems worth asking.)

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4 minutes ago, atpollard said:

I was not chasing after 'tongues', but I definitely had these verses from Acts 2 in mind ...

 

[Acts 2:38-39 NASB] 38 Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

 

The obvious assumption (to this simple mind) from those verses in Acts is that the sincere repentence of a sinner followed by an actual water baptism will be rewarded by God with the Holy Spirit that was the promised seal of God's ownership.  As far as I know Philip was as qualified as any Apostle to preach and baptize, so why (according to Acts 8 ) had God not sealed the believers until Paul and John arrived?

 

It just seems odd, and I don't understand why. (not that salvation hangs in the balance, but it seems worth asking.)

The gift of God in Acts 2 is God. That is, the gift is God. That's how I see the distinction, the gift vs gifts.

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My request should/could  have been more precise 

 

Act 2:1  And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 
Act 2:2  And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 
Act 2:3  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 
Act 2:4  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 
Act 2:5  And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 
Act 2:6  Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 
Act 2:7  And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 
Act 2:8  And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 
Act 2:9  Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 
Act 2:10  Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 
Act 2:11  Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 
 

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10 minutes ago, William said:

These men were already followers of Christ, did they not receive the Holy Spirit (regeneration) and repent? Obviously, at least to me there is a distinction between the gift of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit which equip one for offices. 

Now you almost sound like one of those Pentecostals that preach about two baptisms ... one for Salvation and a second for you to speak in tongues. 

 

Do I need to remind my Presbyterian brother that "[There is] one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all." [Eph 4:4-6 NASB]? 

:RpS_wink:  [just teasing you]

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Just now, atpollard said:

Now you almost sound like one of those Pentecostals that preach about two baptisms ... one for Salvation and a second for you to speak in tongues. 

 

Do I need to remind my Presbyterian brother that "[There is] one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all." [Eph 4:4-6 NASB]? 

:RpS_wink:  [just teasing you]

Some only see similarities and some see the distinctions. I love you alot because you seldom possess a superficial knowledge which makes everything appear the same on the surface. 

 

God bless,

William 

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9 minutes ago, William said:

The gift of God in Acts 2 is God. That is, the gift is God. That's how I see the distinction, the gift vs gifts.

So your argument is that through Philip, the Samaritans were baptized and received salvation (including the seal of the Holy Spirit), but they had not manifested any of the ...  what was that fancy word (glossolalia?) or something like that ... the supernatural visible manifestations of power (like tongues or healing).  It was when Peter and John arrived to lay hands on them and pray that the supernatural 'gifts if the spirit' began to "show up and show out" (as we Pentecostals like to say).

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17 minutes ago, Becky said:

My request should/could  have been more precise 

 

Act 2:1  And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 
Act 2:2  And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 
Act 2:3  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 
Act 2:4  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 
Act 2:5  And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 
Act 2:6  Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 
Act 2:7  And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 
Act 2:8  And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 
Act 2:9  Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 
Act 2:10  Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 
Act 2:11  Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 
 

Setting aside whether or not that applies today (of course it does, where does God revoke his promise ... :RpS_cool: ), we know that this gift applied to Jewish Christians in Jerusalem and gentiles outside of Jerusalem.  Does it not apply to Samaritans and was Philip not as much of an Apostle as Paul was?  Why was there no 'Pentecost' for Philip like there was for Peter and Paul as they spread the gospel beyond Jerusalem?

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 When Philip laid his hands on them that is when they received the Holy Spirit.

 

 The bold face below is mine.

 

    1. NIDNTT: the apostles of Christ received power to confer the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:19; 19:6; but cf. 2:38; 10:44-48) (2:611, Might, O. Betz).

     2. TDNT: The apostles request the gift of the Spirit for those baptised by them, Ac. 8:15 (6:54, peri, Riesenfeld).

     3William Mounce: Commonly cheir refers to the "hand" as a part of the body (Mt. 12:10; Acts 12:7). (1) Many times it is used in the practice of "the laying on of hands," as when someone is commissioned for ministry (Acts 6:6; 13:3; 1 Tim. 5:22), someone prays for, blesses, or heals another (Mt. 9:18; 19:13, 15), or the apostles convey the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17, 19) (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Hand, page 318).

     4. F. F. Bruce: The sequence of the component elements in Christian initiation varies from one occasion to another in Acts. Peter's hearers in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost repent, are baptized, and receive the Spirit (2:38, 41); the Samaritans evangelized by Philip believed and are baptized "into the name of the Lord Jesus", but do not receive the Spirit until apostolic hands are laid on them (8:12, 14-17); Cornelius and his household receive the Spirit while they are still listening to the message and are then baptized (Paul: Apostle of the Heart Set Free, page 280).

     5. Watson's Biblical and Theological Dictionary: And the Holy Ghost was conferred on those who were baptized by the laying on of the hands of the Apostles, Acts 8:17; Acts 19:6. (Hand)
http://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/wtd/view.cgi?n=786

 

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33 minutes ago, Faber said:

The bold face below is mine.

So you are advocating "different strokes for different folks" is the only reason God delayed with the Samaritans and 'jumped the gun' with Cornelius (compared with Acts 2).

 

Makes sense.

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2 hours ago, atpollard said:

Now you almost sound like one of those Pentecostals that preach about two baptisms ... one for Salvation and a second for you to speak in tongues. 

 

Do I need to remind my Presbyterian brother that "[There is] one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all." [Eph 4:4-6 NASB]? 

:RpS_wink:  [just teasing you]

Doesn't all pentecostals believe on two. baptisms?

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1 hour ago, atpollard said:

So you are advocating "different strokes for different folks" is the only reason God delayed with the Samaritans and 'jumped the gun' with Cornelius (compared with Acts 2).

 

Makes sense.

  The New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis (NIDOTTE) says the following:

 Of special interest is the manner in which the OT prophecies of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit are seen to be fulfilled in the book of Acts. It is hardly accidental that the commencement of each new stage in the advancement of the gospel and the incorporation into the community of faith of new groups of people are signaled by the special manifestation of the Spirit. Thus the Spirit is explicitly described as being poured out upon the Jews gathered in Jerusalem (Acts 2:4, 33, 38), but the evidences are repeated when the gospel reaches the Samaritans (8:14-17), the Gentile proselytes in the land of Judaea (10:44-48; cf. 11:16), and the Gentiles of Asia Minor (19:6). Each of these events marks the expansion of the boundaries of the people of God - Jews first, then Samaritans, God-fearers in the land of Israel, and converted pagans on foreign soil. The seal of the Spirit confirms that the ethnic borders of Israel as the people of God have been sprung, as God's transforming power is felt all over the world (New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis, 3:1077, ruah, M.V. Van Pelt/W.C. Kaiser/D.I. Block). 

 

 The only possible disagreement I have is that those in Acts 19 are Gentiles. Why couldn't they be Jews? 
    

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3 hours ago, hanna said:

Doesn't all pentecostals believe on two. baptisms?

“All Pentecostals” is like “all Baptists” ... no such thing.  Both are collections of independent churches, so what any particular local body believes is driven by the Pastor more than any other factor.  That opened the door to a lot of kooks to hang a sign and claim “God told then so”.

 

What all Pentecostal Churches have in common is that they are “non-cessationist”; they believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit did not end with the death of the last Apostle.  

 

For the record, what all Baptists have in common is belief in a “believer’s baptism” (those who repent first) rather than a “covenant baptism” (includes infants).

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Becky said:

@atpollard

 

What do the Scriptures say in Act 2? 

Acts 2 is reasonably understood to be the chapter that begins with the preparations  of the Church and the activities related to it . Jesus spoke His last words in chap. 1:5  where Jesus tells the apostles that they will be baptized with the Holy Spirit in a few days . He instructs them that they will receive power after  the Holy Spirit is come upon them and then lays out their mission of being witnesses to Him in the utter most parts of the earth. The rest of chap.1 has the apostles in the upper room where they abode and were in prayer and in choosing the replacement of Judas who betrayed the Lord to the religious authorities . Chap .2:1-47 is an assortment of the apostles receiving the gifts promised to them , as speaking in tongues and of course Peter's famous sermon that many say was what got the Church started . Reading through it reveals a wealth of activities surrounding the miracles and the gospel message of salvation that saved those of our Lord Jesus Christ who were appointed to life . Acts is about the trials and tribulations that the apostles  met with in their quest to expand the True Church our Lord suffered and died for .

 

Edited by Matthew Duvall
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3 hours ago, atpollard said:

“All Pentecostals” is like “all Baptists” ... no such thing.  Both are collections of independent churches, so what any particular local body believes is driven by the Pastor more than any other factor.  That opened the door to a lot of kooks to hang a sign and claim “God told then so”.

 

What all Pentecostal Churches have in common is that they are “non-cessationist”; they believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit did not end with the death of the last Apostle.  

 

For the record, what all Baptists have in common is belief in a “believer’s baptism” (those who repent first) rather than a “covenant baptism” (includes infants).

I have to call your attention to 1st.Cor.13:8 where Paul tells us " Charity never fails ;but whether there be prophecies ,they shall fail ; whether there be tongues they shall cease ; whether there be knowledge it shall vanish away. vs.9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part ;but when that which is come then that which is in part shall be done away. "

These few words basically puts a damper on any gifts that were once the norm in the beginning of the Church , where they were used to express the power of God working through the apostles . I take issue with anyone who still maintains that these gifts are still in force and are still being practiced in certain churches. I would have to see genuine evidence that results in an actual miracle to be convinced of their authenticity .    M

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In reading of this topic I found Matt Henry to be very interesting .. We all know this topic tends to warm things up..

 

1 Corinthians 14:36-40

In these verses the apostle closes his argument, 1. With a just rebuke of the Corinthians for their extravagant pride and self-conceit: they so managed with their spiritual gifts as no church did like them; they behaved in a manner by themselves, and would not easily endure control nor regulation. Now, says the apostle, to beat down this arrogant humour, “Came the gospel out from you? Or came it to you only? 1Co_14:36. Did Christianity come our of Corinth? was its original among you? Or, if not, is it now limited and confined to you? are you the only church favoured with divine revelations, that you will depart from the decent usages of all other churches, and, to make ostentation of your spiritual gifts, bring confusion into Christian assemblies? How intolerably assuming is this behaviour! Pray bethink yourselves.” When it was needful or proper the apostle could rebuke with all authority; and surely his rebukes, if ever, were proper here. Note, Those must be reproved and humbled whose spiritual pride and self-conceit throw Christian churches and assemblies into confusion, though such men will hardly bear even the rebukes of an apostle. 2. He lets them know that what he said to them was the command of God; nor durst any true prophet, any one really inspired, deny it (1Co_14:37): “If any man think himself a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge, etc., nay, let him be tried by this very rule. If he will not own what I deliver on this head to be the will of Christ, he himself never had the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit of Christ can never contradict itself; if it speak in me, and in them, it must speak the same things in both. If their revelations contradict mine, they do not come from the same Spirit; either I or they must be false prophets. By this therefore you may know them. If they say that my directions in this matter are no divine commandments, you may depend upon it they are not divinely inspired. But if any continue after all, through prejudice or obstinacy, uncertain or ignorant whether they or I speak by the Spirit of God, they must be left under the power of this ignorance. If their pretences to inspiration can stand in competition with the apostolical character and powers which I have, I have lost all my authority and influence; and the persons who allow of this competition against me are out of the reach of conviction, and must be left to themselves.” Note, It is just with God to leave those to the blindness of their own minds who wilfully shut out the light. Those who would be ignorant in so plain a case were justly left under the power of their mistake. 3. He sums up all in two general advices: - (1.) That though they should not despise the gift of tongues, nor altogether disuse it, under the regulations mentioned, yet they should prefer prophesying. This is indeed the scope of the whole argument. It was to be preferred to the other, because it was the more useful gift. (2.) He charges them to let all things be done decently and in order (1Co_14:40), that is, that they should avoid every thing that was manifestly indecent and disorderly. Not that they should hence take occasion to bring into the Christian church and worship any thing that a vain mind might think ornamental to it, or that would help to set it off. Such indecencies and disorders as he had remarked upon were especially to be shunned. They must do nothing that was manifestly childish (1Co_14:20), or that would give occasion to say they were mad (1Co_14:23), nor must they act so as to breed confusion, 1Co_14:33. This would be utterly indecent; it would make a tumult and mob of a Christian assembly. But they were to do things in order; they were to speak one after another, and not all at once; take their turns, and not interrupt one another. To do otherwise was to destroy the end of a Christians ministry, and all assemblies for Christian worship. Note, Manifest indecencies and disorders are to be carefully kept out of all Christian churches, and every part of divine worship. They should have nothing in them that is childish, absurd, ridiculous, wild, or tumultuous; but all parts of divine worship should be carried on in a manly, grave, rational, composed, and orderly manner. God is not to be dishonoured, nor his worship disgraced, by our unbecoming and disorderly performance of it and attendance at it.
 

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10 hours ago, Matthew Duvall said:

I have to call your attention to 1st.Cor.13:8 where Paul tells us " Charity never fails ;but whether there be prophecies ,they shall fail ; whether there be tongues they shall cease ; whether there be knowledge it shall vanish away. vs.9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part ;but when that which is come then that which is in part shall be done away. "

These few words basically puts a damper on any gifts that were once the norm in the beginning of the Church , where they were used to express the power of God working through the apostles . I take issue with anyone who still maintains that these gifts are still in force and are still being practiced in certain churches. I would have to see genuine evidence that results in an actual miracle to be convinced of their authenticity .    M

 

In context ...

 

[1Co 13:8-13 NASB] 8 Love never fails; but if [there are gifts of] prophecy, they will be done away; if [there are] tongues, they will cease; if [there is] knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

It appears to speak of the difference between life on Earth and our ultimate "glorified" state. 

"when the perfect comes": The only perfect man is "Jesus" and he has not yet returned.  Our state of perfection does not come while we are on this Earth.  Thus it is only an assumption that "the perfect" means the Bible ... and we do not have "the perfect Bible", the autographs are lost to us and the manuscripts disagree in minor details.

"but then face to face":  Face to face carries the implication of seeing Jesus at his return and our glorification.

"then I will know fully":  Is complete knowledge obtainable in life?  Do you "know fully even as you are fully known"?  I don't.  It is a future promise for when I am perfected.

 

I would have expected a clearer announcement from God that He was changing a promise than a possible interpretation of one verse.

The discussion of whether modern 'tongues' is what is described in Scripture is another conversation, but I see no reason to conclude that the Holy Spirit has stopped equipping the saints with spiritual gifts as GOD chooses for the edification of the body.  That is the core of the continuation argument.

 

 

 

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Acts 2 speaks of tongues in connection with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit

 

1 Cor  ... i tongues read in terms of gifts 

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On 4/10/2019 at 1:44 AM, atpollard said:

“All Pentecostals” is like “all Baptists” ... no such thing.  Both are collections of independent churches, so what any particular local body believes is driven by the Pastor more than any other factor.  That opened the door to a lot of kooks to hang a sign and claim “God told then so”.

 

What all Pentecostal Churches have in common is that they are “non-cessationist”; they believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit did not end with the death of the last Apostle.  

 

For the record, what all Baptists have in common is belief in a “believer’s baptism” (those who repent first) rather than a “covenant baptism” (includes infants).

Oh, well, on that case I think those circles in lutheranism I've beenn involved in, could be described as pentecostals. I've hardly never met cessationist lutherans. Oh yes, now that I think of it, I remember one, but he left the Lutheran church of Finland, and joined a small lutheran cessationist churh. The Lutheran church of Finland was too pentecostal for him, I think. 

 

With Baptists we do desagree on their common belief.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, hanna said:

With Baptists we do disagree on their common belief.

Take heart, you have the Anglicans and Presbyterians and most Early Church Fathers on your side ... they agree with you on Covenant Baptism. 

 

The Baptists take a very literal reading of a few verses and reject Church Tradition for what they perceive as Apostolic command.  It almost falls into the area of "meat dedicated to idols" ... if your conscience tells you it is a sin, then it is a sin FOR YOU. 

'He who baptizes babies, does so to the glory of God, and he who refrains from baptizing babies does so to the glory of God; so whether one is Believer or Covenant baptism, all baptisms are to the glory of God' [to butcher the words of Paul]. 🙂

Edited by atpollard
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