Jump to content

The Protestant Community

Sincerely inquiring about the Protestant faith? Welcome to Christforums the Christian Protestant community forums. You'll first need to register in order to join our community. Create or respond to threads on your favorite topics and subjects. Registration takes less than a minute, it's simple, fast, and free! Enjoy the fellowship! God bless, Christforums' Staff
Register now

Christian Fellowship Community Forums

John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
Solas

For Conversion God Must at Least. ? !

Recommended Posts

I know this board is heavily Reformed, so I am not throwing this out as a challenge but more as a point of curiosity.

 

We all agree for conversion, God must at least...

reveal and convict of one's sinfulness,

reveal His salvation through Christ and Him crucified,

tear down walls resistance,

open one's understanding,

 

but still after all that, one must still choose or turn away. ¿n'est pas?

 

Please keep your answers on the short side..I don't do well with long tomes as I am a helpless victim of our post modern culture lol.

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Staff

Short side 🙂  I am  thankful i am not in control of my salvation 

  • Yay 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Becky said:

Short side 🙂  I am  thankful i am not in control of my salvation 

Another Jonah? (or Joni lol)

 

Jonah 2:9 (KJV) But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed.  Salvation is of the LORD.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"For Conversion God Must at Least. ? !"

 

 Do everything.

 

 We are like the dead bones in Ezekiel 37 and Lazarus in John 11. Christ calls us through the Spirit to be made alive, because before that we were dead. (Ephesians 2:1, 5).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Faber said:

"For Conversion God Must at Least. ? !"

 

 Do everything.

 

 We are like the dead bones in Ezekiel 37 and Lazarus in John 11. Christ calls us through the Spirit to be made alive, because before that we were dead. (Ephesians 2:1, 5).

Yet does He choose for us?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Staff
7 minutes ago, Solas said:

Yet does He choose for us?

He chooses us .

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Faber said:

Yes. That choice was already made ages ago (Ephesians 1:4).

 

1 hour ago, Becky said:

He chooses us .

I didn't ask if He chose us, but does He choose FOR us?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Staff

He is the potter we the clay 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Becky said:

He is the potter we the clay 

I guess that means He chooses for us?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Staff

We are His vessels and He the Potter If He doesn't make the vessels there aint nothing 

 

Rom 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 
Rom 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 
Rom 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 
Rom 9:22  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 
Rom 9:23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 
 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Solas said:

 

I didn't ask if He chose us, but does He choose FOR us?

I’ll try to make a long answer short by stripping out the details ...  

 

Choosing us is the same as choosing for us.

 

A few more details, just in case you were bored and felt like reading:

  • I had absolutely no faith in a god and no interest in Jesus (examined, rejected and moved on).
  • God compelled me by force to hear about him and see the evidence of His existence.
  • God replaced contempt for an irresitable longing (the Father drew me to the Son - John 6:44).
  • Apart from the choice of God, there is no draw;  under the draw of God, there is only one choice: obedience.

Q.E.D.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, atpollard said:

I’ll try to make a long answer short by stripping out the details ...  

 

Choosing us is the same as choosing for us.

 

A few more details, just in case you were bored and felt like reading:

  • I had absolutely no faith in a god and no interest in Jesus (examined, rejected and moved on).
  • God compelled me by force to hear about him and see the evidence of His existence.
  • God replaced contempt for an irresitable longing (the Father drew me to the Son - John 6:44).
  • Apart from the choice of God, there is no draw;  under the draw of God, there is only one choice: obedience.

Q.E.D.

So God judges guilty those He did not choose and draw to Himself?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Solas said:

 must still choose or turn away. ¿n'est pas?

 

Greetings Solas,

 

This is an interesting question!

The various answers to this question are also interesting.

Christians or other individuals you meet will probably hold to one of the following:

 

(1) Indeterminism (everything happens by chance)

(2) libertarianism (people have free will or rather free agency)

(3) Determinism (Soft determinism, Hard determinism, Superdeterminism/fatalism) = Calvinist and Reform thinkers tend to hold to something along this perspective)

(4) Compatibilism (the idea that Determinism and libertarianism are not incompatible. Sometimes Soft determinism is similar to this)

 

For example,  a link to Matt Slick's answer to your thoughtful question has been posted below. Where you do you think he stands?

(DISCLAIMER: My posting of the following LINK does not necessarily equal an agreement or an endorsement of all views, theology,  opinions therein,  nor of the website as a whole.)

CARM.ORG

God enables us to choose Him by His gracious work (John 6:28-29; Philippians 1:29).

 

Edited by Ben Asher

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Solas said:

So God judges guilty those He did not choose and draw to Himself?

Yes, Solas....You pretty much got the picture.

If God does the choosing and most of us end up in hell,,,

is He a just God?

I would say no to that.

 

If God does all the choosing we are but robots and are responsible for nothing that we do since we have no choice in what we do.

 

If that were true practically all the scripture in the N.T. would be of no value.

Including the ever famous John 3:16

 

What do YOU think? Does God give us a chance to save ourselves because He is a loving and merciful God.....or does He just condemn some to hell for no other reason than that He can?

5 hours ago, Faber said:

Yes. That choice was already made ages ago (Ephesians 1:4).

What choice was made ages ago?

WHO would be saved or

HOW we would be saved?

 

Ephesians 1:4 explains HOW we will be saved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

What choice was made ages ago?

WHO would be saved or

HOW we would be saved?

 

Ephesians 1:4 explains HOW we will be saved.

 It explains that the choice was already made (cf. Psalm 65:4).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, GodsGrace said:

If that were true practically all the scripture in the N.T. would be of no value.

Including the ever famous John 3:16

 

 It seems those who are fond of citing Matthew 7:1 ignore John 7:24.

 And it seems those who are fond of citing John 3:16 ignore John 6:44.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Faber said:

 It explains that the choice was already made.

How is that? 

Could you tell how you understand ephesians 1:4? 

It says How we will be saved,,, where do you read the 'who' out of that? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ephesians 1:4

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love (NASB)

 

 The underlined above is mine.

 

 The "us" refers to Christians, thus it answers to whom it applies.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Faber said:

Ephesians 1:4

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love (NASB)

 

 The underlined above is mine.

 

 The "us" refers to Christians, thus it answers to whom it applies.

Hi F

I'm on a phone and am having difficulty writing. 

God chose us to be IN Christ, as stated in Genesis 3:17...

We would be saved thru the seed of Mary,,,,, which is Jesus. 

Can't write, tomorrow. 

🙂

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, that would be good, because I am also having difficulty in fully understanding your last post.

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Staff

Some time folks get the idea God is not sovereign . IMO God can only be Godly . 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Solas said:

So God judges guilty those He did not choose and draw to Himself?

Only if they are GUILTY.

 

[Rom 1:18-20 NASB] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

 

[Rom 1:24, 26, 28 NASB] 24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. ... 26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, ... 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,

 

[Rom 2:5-6 NASB] 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

 

[Rom 3:10-12 NASB] 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

 

... do we see a pattern here?

 

If you have a problem with the morality of it, Paul anticipated your concern and addressed it:

 

[Rom 9:14-24 NASB] 14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [even] us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, atpollard said:

Only if they are GUILTY.

 

[Rom 1:18-20 NASB] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

 

[Rom 1:24, 26, 28 NASB] 24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. ... 26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, ... 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,

 

[Rom 2:5-6 NASB] 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

 

[Rom 3:10-12 NASB] 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

 

... do we see a pattern here?

 

If you have a problem with the morality of it, Paul anticipated your concern and addressed it:

 

[Rom 9:14-24 NASB] 14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [even] us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

I've actually heard all these arguments presented thus far. I am still seeking an answer to, "Yet does He choose for us?".

 You had said earlier to this question..."Choosing us is the same as choosing for us." adding..."Apart from the choice of God, there is no draw;  under the draw of God, there is only one choice: obedience.".

 

From that I pose the same question, 'Does obedience consist of Him choosing for us?'

 

Where do I stand? (It's half the reason I am asking this question). I hold the issue of God's sovereignty the same as way I see the Incarnation....Jesus is fully God/fully man..even so..God is 100% sovereign but in such a way where man's culpability and responsibility holds intact 100%.. I cannot fully reconcile the two, but I believe it is what Scripture reveals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Solas said:

 

I didn't ask if He chose us, but does He choose FOR us?

He allows us to make our own choices, but He already knows what we will choose. God allows for free will, but our lives are predetermined, as He knows the outcome.

  • Love 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...