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Origen

Poll Question: Will the temple be rebuilt?

Will the temple be rebuilt?  

16 members have voted

  1. 1. Will the temple be rebuilt?



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Origen
Moderator

Will the temple be rebuilt?  Will there be a third temple?  When I say temple I mean an actual physical structure (i.e. a building) in Jerusalem.

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theophilus

Daniel 9:27 says, " And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering."  The prince spoken of in the previous verse will make a seven year covenant with the Jews and will then put an end to their making sacrifices and offering during the last half of that time.  The fact that he ends sacrifices shows that they must have been taking place during the first half and that means a temple must have been building.

 

Paul tells us more about this in 1 Thessalonians 2:3,4:  For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

 

The man of lawlessness will pretend to be a friend of the Jews and allow them to rebuild their temple, then he will turn against them and demand that they worship him.

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Origen
Moderator
6 minutes ago, theophilus said:

Daniel 9:27 says, " And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering."  The prince spoken of in the previous verse will make a seven year covenant with the Jews and will then put an end to their making sacrifices and offering during the last half of that time.  The fact that he ends sacrifices shows that they must have been taking place during the first half and that means a temple must have been building.

 

Paul tells us more about this in 1 Thessalonians 2:3,4:  For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

 

The man of lawlessness will pretend to be a friend of the Jews and allow them to rebuild their temple, then he will turn against them and demand that they worship him.

Some hold that view but others do not.

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Becky
Moderator

Which temple ? 

 

1Co_3:16  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 
 

 

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Becky
Moderator

Joh 2:19  Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 
Joh 2:20  Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 
Joh 2:21  But he spake of the temple of his body. 
So Yes His temple is being built.

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William
Staff

I voted no, but there seems to be a question about "which Temple" is being polled.

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Origen
Moderator
1 minute ago, William said:

I voted no, but there seems to be a question about "which Temple" is being polled.

There is.

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Dutch
Posted (edited)

No (for what purpose?).The types and shadows are over. No need for the temple to be rebuilt.Believers are the New Covenant temples of Christ. 

Edited by Dutch
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Origen
Moderator
21 minutes ago, Dutch said:

No (for what purpose?).The types and shadows are over. No need for the temple to be rebuilt.Believers are the New Covenant temples of Christ. 

Please vote.

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theophilus
15 hours ago, Dutch said:

No (for what purpose?).The types and shadows are over. No need for the temple to be rebuilt.Believers are the New Covenant temples of Christ. 

This is true and yet Ezekiel tells us there will be a temple during the Millennium.

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davidtaylorjr
1 hour ago, theophilus said:

This is true and yet Ezekiel tells us there will be a temple during the Millennium.

Oh but remember we are talking to people who say there is no Millennium despite it being in Scripture.

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Becky
Moderator
32 minutes ago, davidtaylorjr said:

Oh but remember we are talking to people who say there is no Millennium despite it being in Scripture.

Who here says there is no millennium? Are you speaking of a difference in what folks consider the millennium,  a different understanding ? 

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rstrats
Posted (edited)

Becky,
re:  "Which temple ?"

 

Origen says in his post #1 that the poll has to do with a physical building temple.  I'm surprised that you missed it. 

Edited by rstrats

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Origen
Moderator
On 3/23/2019 at 5:26 AM, rstrats said:

Becky,
re:  "Which temple ?"

 

Origen says in his post #1 that the poll has to do with a physical building temple.  I'm surprised that you missed it. 

That was my fault.  A few people informed me I was not very clear.  So I went back and clarified the OP.

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Origen
Moderator
On 3/21/2019 at 9:37 AM, Becky said:

Who here says there is no millennium? Are you speaking of a difference in what folks consider the millennium,  a different understanding ? 

You are correct Becky.

 

I don't know any believer who claims there is no millennium.  It is right there in the book of Revelation.  The amillennialists have a different understanding of what it is and means.  By the way that understanding is in keeping with the symbolic nature of the book which is an apocalyptic literary style.

 

As for not finding something in Scripture, you will not find in Ezekiel:


(1) any mention of a millennium in the text
(2) and there is no call to built\rebuild the temple in the text.


So where does that leave us?  First, it leaves us with the false claim that we are "people who say there is no millennium."  Second, it is us who need to "remember we are talking to people" who read into the text things that are not there.  Ezekiel never mentions a millennium or is there a command to built anything.

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davidtaylorjr
On 3/21/2019 at 9:37 AM, Becky said:

Who here says there is no millennium? Are you speaking of a difference in what folks consider the millennium,  a different understanding ? 

So you are saying there will be a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth as the Scriptures state? Amillennialists try to spiritualize this and, in effect, say there is no millennium. 

1 hour ago, Origen said:

So where does that leave us?  First, it leaves us with the false claim that we are "people who say there is no millennium."

You say there is not a physical one.

 

 

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Becky
Moderator

The traditions of men carry so much weight. 

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Origen
Moderator
On 3/23/2019 at 9:38 AM, davidtaylorjr said:

So you are saying there will be a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth as the Scriptures state?

I think I made my point clear.  What part did you not understand?

 

On 3/23/2019 at 9:38 AM, davidtaylorjr said:

Amillennialists try to spiritualize this and, in effect, say there is no millennium. 

The number is symbolic.  Again this is nothing new.

 

On 3/23/2019 at 9:38 AM, davidtaylorjr said:

You say there is not a physical one.

Again it is a matter of hermeneutical methodology.  It is a matter of understanding the apocalyptic literary style and symbolism within the historical and cultural context of the book Revelation.

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davidtaylorjr
7 minutes ago, Origen said:

Again it is a matter of hermeneutical methodology.  It is a matter of understanding the apocalyptic literary style and symbolism within the historical and cultural context of the book Revelation.

So every part of Revelation is symbolic?

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davidtaylorjr
2 hours ago, Becky said:

The traditions of men carry so much weight. 

Being snarky again I see....

 

Traditions of men, who gets ascribed the traditions of men? Both sides of this debate are looking at Scripture.

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Origen
Moderator
45 minutes ago, davidtaylorjr said:

So every part of Revelation is symbolic?

David I am not going to play this game with you.  There is simply no point to it.  You prefer a dispensational methodology.  That is your lens.  Thus your simplistic question is pointless.  If it were merely a matter of who takes this or that to be symbolic, no group (dispensational or not) takes everything in Revelation to be symbolic or for that matter literal.

 

As I have said before (and as Heiser also points out), the Bible must be interpreted in context.  But what is often not stated is that the context isn't our own or that of some theological tradition.  It is the context that produced it, namely the ancient Near East/Mediterranean world.  God chose people to write the biblical text, and people write using grammar, in styles understood by their peers, and with deliberate intent. We need to understand a text from their point of view not ours.

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Becky
Moderator
6 minutes ago, davidtaylorjr said:

Being snarky again I see....

 

Traditions of men, who gets ascribed the traditions of men? Both sides of this debate are looking at Scripture.

No not a snark a simple observation . 

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davidtaylorjr
6 minutes ago, Origen said:

David I am not going to play this game with you.  There is simply no point to it.  You prefer a dispensational methodology.  That is your lens.  Thus your simplistic question is pointless.  If it were merely a matter of who takes this or that to be symbolic, no group (dispensational or not) takes everything in Revelation to be symbolic or for that matter literal.

It's not a game, it is precisely the whole point. So if not everything in Revelation is symbolic then you need to provide justification for the 1,000 years to be symbolic. And I prefer a biblical methodology. Don't label it anything. It is plainly there in Scripture.

 

7 minutes ago, Origen said:

As I have said before (and as Heiser also points out), the Bible must be interpreted in context.  But what is often not stated is that the context isn't our own or that of some theological tradition.  It is the context that produced it, namely the ancient Near East/Mediterranean world.  God chose people to write the biblical text, and people write using grammar, in styles understood by their peers, and with deliberate intent. We need to understand a text from their point of view not ours.

Agreed. But I don't think you have met that burden.

 

6 minutes ago, Becky said:

No not a snark a simple observation .

Then I don't think you understand how you come across to people.

 

 

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William
Staff
11 minutes ago, davidtaylorjr said:

So if not everything in Revelation is symbolic then you need to provide justification for the 1,000 years to be symbolic. And I prefer a biblical methodology. Don't label it anything. It is plainly there in Scripture.

 

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Origen
Moderator
On 3/23/2019 at 12:27 PM, davidtaylorjr said:

It's not a game, it is precisely the whole point.

It is a game dispensationalist often play.  I have already explain my thoughts on the matter.

 

Quote

And I prefer a biblical methodology.

You may call it whatever you like but that doesn't make it true.  You call it biblical.  I call it dispensational.  There are not even close to being the same thing.

 

Quote

Don't label it anything.

It is what it is.

 

Quote

It is plainly there in Scripture.

That is your opinion.  There is zero evidence that it is.

 

On 3/23/2019 at 12:27 PM, davidtaylorjr said:

So if not everything in Revelation is symbolic then you need to provide justification for the 1,000 years to be symbolic.

That type of thinking is were you make your error.   It is myopic.  It is not an either or proposition and consequently such thinking fails to understand apocalyptic writings within its literary context.

 

On 3/23/2019 at 12:27 PM, davidtaylorjr said:

Agreed. But I don't think you have met that burden.

Don't you know numbers are used symbolically especially in apocalyptic literature?  That is simply a fact.

 

Nevertheless you claimed "we are talking to people who say there is no Millennium despite it being in Scripture."  That is patently false.  The fact that others have a different understand of the millennium (what it is and means) is does not even come close to suggesting that there is no millennium.  Your claim was a misrepresentation of the amillennialist view.  It is as simple as that.

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