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davidtaylorjr

United Methodist Special Conference

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davidtaylorjr

The UMC Special General Conference on LGBTQ is this week from Feb 23-26. One of the things that are coming up for vote is the "trust clause." The trust clause essentially states that even though the church (local) holds the deed to their property, if they try to leave the denomination the denomination gets the property.  It is being weaponized these days holding churches captive.

 

There are 5 petitions that will be considered that will relax the trust clause allowing traditional churches to exit the denomination without penalty.

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Becky
Moderator

LGBTQ a vote/discussion? What do the Scriptures say?

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Faber
10 minutes ago, Becky said:

What do the Scriptures say?

 

Hath God said...? (Genesis 3:1)

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davidtaylorjr
1 hour ago, Becky said:

LGBTQ a vote/discussion? What do the Scriptures say?

I think you miss the point.

1 hour ago, Faber said:

 

Hath God said...? (Genesis 3:1)

Obviously, the Scriptures say no. What my prayer request is more about is that the trust clause gets relaxed or removed to give Bible-believing churches a way out without losing their church and/or having a huge legal battle.

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Faber

 Don't you think that they should forfeit the church building and property seeing that they no longer uphold what the denomination teaches?

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davidtaylorjr
11 minutes ago, Faber said:

 Don't you think that they should forfeit the church building and property seeing that they no longer uphold what the denomination teaches?

No, I don't. The local church buys the property, upkeeps the property, holds the deed to the property. If they decide to leave the denomination they should keep their own property. OR, if the denomination makes them give up the property, the denomination should buy the property.

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davidtaylorjr
15 minutes ago, Faber said:

 Don't you think that they should forfeit the church building and property seeing that they no longer uphold what the denomination teaches?

There is also the issue of if the denomination suddenly changes what it teaches, should they not be given a free way out for conscience?

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TonyT

Praying about this matter.

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davidtaylorjr

The General Conference passed what is called the Traditional Plan which strengthens language against LGBT and also puts in enforcement to these policies that was not being followed before. 

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Origen
Moderator
40 minutes ago, davidtaylorjr said:

The General Conference passed what is called the Traditional Plan which strengthens language against LGBT and also puts in enforcement to these policies that was not being followed before. 

I was just reading about it this morning.  Excellent news!

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davidtaylorjr

@Origen Albert Mohler mused this morning on the briefing if this could turn out to be the start of a transformation like the Southern Baptists had in the late '80s early '90s.

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Origen
Moderator
48 minutes ago, davidtaylorjr said:

@Origen Albert Mohler mused this morning on the briefing if this could turn out to be the start of a transformation like the Southern Baptists had in the late '80s early '90s.

We can pray.  (NIV) "Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel--all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and whose mouths have not kissed him." 1 Kings 19:18

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William
Staff
On 2/19/2019 at 2:00 PM, davidtaylorjr said:

There is also the issue of if the denomination suddenly changes what it teaches, should they not be given a free way out for conscience?

What about the LGBT~Q supporters? Should enough of them gather together and decide to leave should they have the option of taking church property?

 

5 hours ago, davidtaylorjr said:

The General Conference passed what is called the Traditional Plan which strengthens language against LGBT and also puts in enforcement to these policies that was not being followed before. 

Strengthen language? Like not calling homosexuals and sodomites "Gay"? Could you provide an example or post a reference?

 

1 hour ago, Origen said:

We can pray.  (NIV) "Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel--all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and whose mouths have not kissed him." 1 Kings 19:18

That's what Scripture "says", though I'm a little confused what reserving seven thousand in Israel has to do with the Baptist denomination? Clearly, the Baptist reject any notion that the church is Israel.

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davidtaylorjr
4 minutes ago, William said:

What about the LGBT~Q supporters? Should enough of them gather together and decide to leave should they have the option of taking church property?

Yes, if they leave I think they should also keep their property that they paid for, that they upkeep. 

5 minutes ago, William said:

Strengthen language? Like not calling homosexuals and sodomites "Gay"? Could you provide an example or post a reference?

For example, the current discipline only says you are a self-avowed homosexual if you tell a Bishop, District Superintendant, etc.

Now, after yesterday, it will add, or are living with a same-sex partner, married to a same-sex partner, openly practicing homosexual lifestyles, etc.

 

 

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William
Staff
35 minutes ago, davidtaylorjr said:

Yes, if they leave I think they should also keep their property that they paid for, that they upkeep. 

For example, the current discipline only says you are a self-avowed homosexual if you tell a Bishop, District Superintendant, etc.

Now, after yesterday, it will add, or are living with a same-sex partner, married to a same-sex partner, openly practicing homosexual lifestyles, etc.

 

 

So in other words Liberal infiltration and popularity can gain the church?

 

A slippery slope from my observation over the years begins when people differentiate between homosexual desire and living or practicing the Sodomite lifestyle. If a person is single and has homosexual desires but does not act upon them are they qualified to be a Pastor, elder, etc? Are women qualified also? And if a man identifies as a woman and women are qualified is "it" qualified too?

 

Sounds to me like the Methodist favor Bill Clinton's don't ask don't tell policy.

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davidtaylorjr
1 minute ago, William said:

A slippery slope from my observation over the years begins when people begin to differentiate between homosexual desire and living or practicing the Sodomite lifestyle.

How is that a slippery slope? Homosexuality is sin just like every other sin. Are you ever tempted with the desire to sin? Would that disqualify you if you do not act on it?

2 minutes ago, William said:

And if a man identifies as a woman and women are qualified is "it" qualified too?

No, that is sin and it was also rejected yesterday.

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William
Staff
Just now, davidtaylorjr said:

How is that a slippery slope? Homosexuality is sin just like every other sin. Are you ever tempted with the desire to sin? Would that disqualify you if you do not act on it?

Please do argue for their side.

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davidtaylorjr
1 minute ago, William said:

Please do argue for their side.

??? I'm not sure what your intent is behind this statement.

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William
Staff
4 minutes ago, davidtaylorjr said:

???

I suggest rereading Timothy 3 and then reframing the qualification for Pastors etc.

 

A homosexual desires same sex relationships and remains single. Should they be qualified as a Pastor?

 

When they slip or backslide into sin (perhaps for lack of helpmeet or they burn in passion) is the argument and defense then going to be that Christians are not sinless? Ah, yes, so many will side with the homosexual that fell into a moment of sodomy and then the church will divide, and as you stated the majority should have a clear path for conscience to leave. After all the church is like an investment where one has stock in it. Now that's true sarcasm!

 

steve carell sarcasm GIF

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davidtaylorjr
1 minute ago, William said:

A homosexual desires same sex relationships and remains single. Should they be qualified as a Pastor?

I think you are actually taking this further than the argument I suggest. When I say desire I mean temptation. You seem to be talking about actual lust which is different. If there is intentional same-sex lust, not just temptation, then that person is not qualified. You take it to an extreme which is not helpful to the conversation. Because, in all seriousness, by your standard, nobody would be qualified. 


And further, I was not speaking to the qualifications of a pastor. I was speaking directly to your assertion that it is a slippery slope to differentiate between attraction and lifestyle.

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William
Staff
23 minutes ago, davidtaylorjr said:

I think you are actually taking this further than the argument I suggest. When I say desire I mean temptation. You seem to be talking about actual lust which is different. If there is intentional same-sex lust, not just temptation, then that person is not qualified. You take it to an extreme which is not helpful to the conversation. Because, in all seriousness, by your standard, nobody would be qualified. 


And further, I was not speaking to the qualifications of a pastor. I was speaking directly to your assertion that it is a slippery slope to differentiate between attraction and lifestyle.

I rest my case.

 

I apologize for using such a strong language.

23 minutes ago, davidtaylorjr said:

Because, in all seriousness, by your standard, nobody would be qualified. 

Nobody or only men you know? Perhaps it would be best for women to lead the Methodist church?

 

And by my standard?

 

seth meyers wow GIF by Late Night with Seth Meyers

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davidtaylorjr
Just now, William said:

I rest my case.

 

I apologize for using such a strong language.

You rest your case? You haven't even addressed anything I have actually said, just gone off on rampages on topics I did not even discuss in my post.

 

 

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Origen
Moderator
1 hour ago, William said:

That's what Scripture "says", though I'm a little confused what reserving seven thousand in Israel has to do with the Baptist denomination? Clearly, the Baptist reject any notion that the church is Israel.

I was using it as an analogy.

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William
Staff
16 minutes ago, Origen said:

I was using it as an analogy.

I like analogies. We should have Analogy Tuesdays following Sarcasm Mondays.

 

I imagined true Israel and the Baptists in dialogue in 2 Samuel 19:22:

 

And David said, What have I to do with you, you sons of Zeruiah, that you should this day be adversaries to me? shall there any man be put to death this day in Israel? for do not I know that I am this day king over Israel?

 

I often think of this verse whenever someone is "brown nosing" or "placating" another.

 

I think the Methodist too are only placating the opposition and have not fixed the root cause of departure.

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Origen
Moderator
16 minutes ago, William said:

I think the Methodist too are only placating the opposition and have not fixed the root cause of departure.

There is a point to be made for that.  There is also the good news that they did not cave but affirmed a scriptural truth.

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