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Truthfrees

Questions about OSAS (Once saved always saved)

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Truthfrees

Can someone give me a brief synopsis of osas - the children's version?

 

is one of the tenets of osas that you can sin as much as you want and still be saved?

 

i may have more questions later

 

just wanted to hear from a calvinist

 

how does eternal security compare to osas?

 

and perseverance of the saints?

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Becky
Moderator
15 minutes ago, Truthfrees said:

can someone give me a brief synopsis of osas - the children's version?

 

is one of the tenets of osas that you can sin as much as you want and still be saved?

 

i may have more questions later

 

just wanted to hear from a calvinist

 

how does eternal security compare to osas?

 

and perseverance of the saints?

Do you know a saved person that wants to sin? 

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Truthfrees
2 hours ago, Becky said:

Do you know a saved person that wants to sin? 

i personally don't believe a saved person wants to sin

 

imo someone who wants to sin - loves to sin - lives a gleeful life of sin is not saved

 

i want a calvinist to help me understand osas

 

i am being told by a non-calvinist that osas says that you can sin all you want because you can never lose your salvation

 

is that a calvinist doctrine?

 

i have nothing to say to the other person because i don't know calvinist doctrine

 

i need to hear from a calvinist on this

Edited by Truthfrees

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Becky
Moderator

Some one here that has a good grasp on the theology will answer ... 

 

OSAS either side will be a stumbling block as long as there are people around .  I suggest not getting into that argument unless you have studied the subject. 

 

Sinning is not a Calvinist doctrine .. 

 

What do the Scriptures say?  Does God abandoned His Kids?  

 

i am being told by someone that osas says that you can sin all you want because you can never lose your salvation

 

I do not know of anyone who is sinless  do you?  What does a person do to earn their Salvation .. 

 

Rom_5:17  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 
 

 

 

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William
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2 hours ago, Truthfrees said:

i am being told by a non-calvinist that osas says that you can sin all you want because you can never lose your salvation

 

is that a calvinist doctrine?

No, but they are addressing a problematic area for OSAS. The person seemingly has an issue with eternal security. Most people that adhere to works righteousness or performance based salvation take issue with eternal security.

 

Calvinism addresses the natural man in Total Depravity and what your non-Calvinist colleague is possibly (giving them the benefit of the doubt) pointing out is that the natural man shouldn't have assurance of eternal security because they once paid lip service or "professed faith" which is not genuinely evident in their daily lives today.

 

I'm not going to defend OSAS because I am a Calvinist. As a Calvinist let me point out that OSAS seemingly suggests that God "preserves the sinner" rather than conveying the Calvinist doctrine of the Perseverance of the saints.

 

5 hours ago, Truthfrees said:

can someone give me a brief synopsis of osas - the children's version?

 

is one of the tenets of osas that you can sin as much as you want and still be saved?

 

i may have more questions later

 

just wanted to hear from a calvinist

 

how does eternal security compare to osas?

 

and perseverance of the saints?

 

OSAS and the Calvinist doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints both teach eternal security.

 

OSAS is not a Calvinist doctrine and in my opinion de-emphasizes the believer's accountability and responsibility for sins.

 

However, critics that oppose eternal security are probably going to contest both OSAS and Perseverance of the Saints alike.

 

My main reservations with OSAS as a watered down Calvinist doctrine is that it gives assurance to false converts which may of once said the sinner's prayer or engaged in an altar call and think that they need not be changed in heart or mind. Emphasizing the T.U.L.I. the final P teaches regenerate believers ought live more worthily of the Grace which they received and such genuine faith is evidenced by works in the life of the believer. These works do not justify man before God but justify our faith before other men. This is something you'll find from those that "once believed and no longer believe" could not fake. They literally could not persevere to the very last day.

 

Matt Slick of CARM is a fellow Calvinist. Looks like Matt wrote up a brief survey of eternal security:

 

CARM.ORG

Eternity security: We are regenerated, and because of regeneration from God, we war against our sin. We do not consider it a license to sin. God will...

 

A more comprehensive historical or classical approach to the Calvinist doctrine Perseverance of the Saints by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon of "A Puritan's Mind" or Puritan Board (Yes, he too is a Calvinist):

 

The Synod of Dort explains the doctrine of perseverance concisely. First they state that even though Christians are saved, they still sin. Though they have been delivered from the bondage of sin, and sin no longer reigns or has rule over them, they still fall into grievous sins.[2] However, though Christians sin, God still preserves them that they may not utterly fall away. Dort says, “By reason of these remains of indwelling sin, and also because of the temptations of the world and of Satan, those who are converted could not persevere in that grace if left to their own strength. But God is faithful, who, having conferred grace, mercifully confirms and powerfully preserves them therein, even to the end.”[3] If men are left to themselves, without the powerful working of God’s Holy Spirit to motion them to good works, they will never be able to motion themselves without His help. Hypothetically speaking, if the Christian man has the power of God removed from him, he would simply be a fallen sinner. What can a fallen sinner do against sin but remain enslaved in it? The Spirit of God must motion the Christian to good works, and must be the agent that secures the application of the power of the cross to the Christian’s soul. That is why Dort says, “But God is faithful…” It is not that man has power to sustain himself, but that God must preserve Him by grace. Oftentimes, then, theologians call “The Perseverance of the Saints” as “The Preservation of the Saints.”

 

There are common misconceptions about the doctrine of The Perseverance of the Saints. This doctrine does not mean “once saved always saved”. This corruption of the doctrine has been popular in recent years, but has never been a true representation of the doctrine. “Once saved always saved” is more keenly given the name “Perseverance of the Sinner” instead of “the saint” for it teaches that man can be saved by Christ and then sin habitually, do whatever he wants, and still “persevere to the end”. It is often used as an excuse and caricature of the Reformed doctrines of grace because such a teaching does in fact bring reproach on those who would believe it. The Bible does not say that a man can be a Christian and may never change. To say that one is eternally secure and that such a man may still sin any way is a false misrepresentation of the doctrine as a whole.

 

Perseverance of the saints teaches that once God has renewed the heart of a sinner through the application of the redemption wrought by Christ upon the cross, He will continue to be saved and show forth the fruits of that salvation. The sinner perseveres because of Christ, but he continually shows himself as one who has been changed by Christ. God has saved the individual and will sanctify him until the end when he is ultimately glorified, and in heaven. It does not mean man has a license to sin. Dort explains this well in that if a Christian should fall, God “preserves in them the incorruptible seed of regeneration from perishing or being totally lost.”[4] The sovereign work of the Spirit on the heart of the individual cannot be undone (John 3:1-16). It is the same sentiments that Peter states, “1 Peter 1:23, “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.” Regeneration, the changing of the heart from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh, cannot be revoked. It is a deposit of an incorruptible seed that cannot be taken away. Just after a long two-chapter discourse on election, Paul, in Romans 11:29, says, “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” Thus, if the Scripture is to stand firm, and the promises of God cannot be revoked, then perseverance is a biblical and logical necessity. If the opposite of this were true, Christians would be miserable people. Calvin says, “A fine confidence of salvation is left to us, if by moral conjecture we judge that at the present moment we are in grace, but we know not what will become of us tomorrow! The apostle speaks far otherwise: “I am surely convinced that neither angels, nor powers, nor principalities, nor death, nor life, nor things present, nor things to come…will separate us from the love by which the Lord embraces us in Christ” [Romans 8:38-39 p.].”[5]

 

Why do theologians call the doctrine “The Perseverance of the Saints?” Why not, “The Preservation of the Saints by God?” The reason lies in the emphasis that since election is true, and God preserves the Christian, that they must demonstrate this true preservation by their outward conformity to the Word of God. In other words, the fruit of the life demonstrate that they are truly saved and will truly persevere. Dorst says that such a salvation “renders them much more careful and solicitous to continue in the ways of the Lord,”[6] not to continue in sin. It is important to note that such works do not save them, or improve on the promises of the salvation they have in Christ. But they do demonstrate that they have been saved. The fruit of a tree does not make the tree good or bad, but demonstrates whether the tree is a good tree or a bad tree. It is fitting to say, then, that the saints of God must persevere, and in that perseverance is demonstrated the preservation of God.

 

There are numerous Scriptures that demonstrate the final perseverance of the believer. Christ says in John 6:37-39, “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” Jesus Christ will lose none that the Father has given him. He will not lose one. He will raise them up in the last day. All that the Father has deposited unto the Son, and all for whom the Son intercedes shall be saved. Paul says in Phil. 1:6, “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:” Christians can be confident that God will continue and finish the work he had begun in them as a result of the work of Christ and its continued application by the power of the Sprit of God. Calvin says, “This declaration is clearly against the schoolmen, who idly talk and say, that no one is certain of final perseverance, except through the gift of special revelation, which they make to be very rare. By such a dogma the whole faith is destroyed, which is certainly nothing, except it extends to death and beyond death. But we, on the contrary, ought to feel confident, that he who has begun in us a good work, will carry it on until the day of the Lord Jesus.”[7] God is always faithful to His promises as 1 Thess. 5:23-24 says, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.” God will do it. There are reasons that we will explore as to “why” God will do this, but we have written for our hope the truth that He will. God will preserve His people blameless until the coming of Christ, and then at that time He will glorify them. Paul was confident of this for himself when he said, “And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen (2 Tim. 4:18).” Such a life of preservation is echoed in Ephesians 2:10 where, just after Paul says that Christians have been saved by grace through faith, the real emphasis on election and preservation comes forth when he says, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” God ordains the steps of the Christian and orders the very works that they shall do to glorify Him in the truth.

 

Though the Scriptures are plain that God preserves His children to the end, there are Scriptures that demonstrate the possibility of falling from grace and winding up in hell. Is this a contradiction to the doctrine of the saint’s perseverance? Not at all. It may seem at the outset that it is, especially using the wording above, but if time is taken to look at passages that seem contradictory, the true nature of those statements becomes evident. One such passage is Hebrews 6:3-6. This is probably the most famous passage that is most often quoted again the doctrine of perseverance all through church history, and it will do well as an example. It reads, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” This is a serious list. These people have been 1) enlightened, 2) have tasted the heavenly gift, 3) have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 4) have tasted the good Word of God, 5) have tasted of the powers of the age to come, and, most critically, they 6) have the possibility of falling away. The text is saying that though all these things have occurred, these “professing Christians” will utterly miscarry their souls into all eternity. Does this sound like perseverance? This sounds more like a warning to instill fear rather than assurance! However, one key unlocks the meaning of the passage that is often overlooked. If the Christian would continue reading he would find that the writer of Hebrews makes a valid distinction between these people in verse 3-6, and the true Christian who will be saved. In verse 9 it says, “But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.” Better things? Things that accompany salvation? It is clear that in the mind of the writer of this inspired epistle, he does not equate what he formally says in verses 3-6 to salvation. Whatever the writer is talking about in being enlightened, tasting the heavenly gift and the like, he is not speaking about salvation. In verse 9 he is quite sure that the brethren spoken about here are in contrast to these other people who seem to fall away. In actuality, these people were never saved though they, in some way, partook of the covenant community and the blessings there. There is a dividing line between those who are saved (verse 9) and those who are under some kind of strong delusion that allows them to believe they are saved (verses 3-6). Those acts mentioned in verse 3-6 are things that do not accompany salvation and should not be confused with the idea that Christians who are truly regenerated may ultimately fall away and become lost. Christians have the Holy Spirit residing in them as a regenerated elect sinner. However, this list in verses 3-6 are not regenerating ordinances at all. The problem lies in the human inability to distinguish who are the elect and who are not. “While regeneration is irreversible and leads to final perseverance, in the visible Church it is not humanly possible to infallibly distinguish the truly regenerate from those who are not.”[8] That is why Christians who are not theologically sound make rash judgments about the nature of election because they see that a person they thought was a Christian finally falls away and goes back to the pig pen of the world. In this they believe that Christians fall away and that places them in a state of terror believing they might do the same.

 

Though having a healthy fear of falling away is not in itself bad, the continued state of un-assurance will render the Christian pressed into a state of spiritual depression, or simply one who thinks that salvation and assurance are totally on their shoulders. Rather, in the infallible work of Jesus Christ there is the union of the believer and the Lord which remains inseparable. The Westminster Larger Catechism asks this in question 79, “May not true believers, by reason of their imperfections, and the many temptations and sins they are overtaken with, fall away from the state of grace?

 

The answer is given, “True believers, by reason of the unchangeable love of God, and his decree and covenant to give them perseverance, their inseparable union with Christ, his continual intercession for them, and the Spirit and seed of God abiding in them, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. (Jer. 31:3; 2 Tim. 2:19-21; 2 Sam. 23:5; 1 Cor. 1:8-9; Heb. 7:25; Luke 22:32; 1 John 2:27; 3:9; Jer. 32:40; John 10:28; 1 Peter 1:5).” There are too many biblical factors that overthrow man’s ability to thwart the salvation attained by God. Perseverance of the Saints can be seen in a number of various scriptural lights. The Scriptures are exceedingly plain as to the reasons that it presses into the conscience of the Christian the truth of the matter that God is truly the Savior and He will save His people from their sins. They are, 1) There is no failure in the decreed counsel of God. 2) There is no change in the Divine being (which is essential to this doctrine of perseverance), 3) There is no failure in the work of Christ, 4) There is no failure in the Love of God to the elect, and 5) the elect cannot cease to be what they are by God’s decree.

 

First, there is no failure in the decreed counsel of God. Everything which resides within the mind of God is not potential but is an eternal actual. A fancy name given to this actuality, so finite human beings can grasp the idea in some sense, is an Eternal Decree. The eternal decree of God is that perfect, complete, infinite plan from which all things transpire in our time and space as history unfolds. It is the next step in understanding the Eternal Counsel, more appropriately, what God did in that counsel. God has planned this decree carefully and to its most minute detail. Jesus says, “Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs on your head are all numbered (Matthew 10:29,30).” How infinite is this great Continuum where God himself numbers the hairs on your head! He is there when every sparrow falls for His plan is vast. He leaves nothing to chance nor anything to a whimsical fling. All things are under His power and authority and all things have been planned accordingly (Genesis 50:20; Psalm 75:9-25; John 10:29). “Divine salvation is a supernatural work which produces supernatural effects.”[9]

 

The decrees of God are purposed filled. The decreed counsel of God is the will of God willed in purpose. God’s knowledge is eternal, as is His essence. Therefore, it is necessary that the decree upon which this is set forth is also eternal. Every decree of God is eternal. We lower God’s standards when we see that God’s redemptive, eternal plan rests on the will of man apart from God. Nothing functions apart from the will of the Divine Creator and sustainer of life. For if God is so impotent that He must wait on man for His will to be effectual, then He is hardly a God at all. The Westminster Confession of Faith says, “God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass.”[10] All things are decreed by God in an eternal and unchangeable act. This decree takes place at an appointed time and nothing can change it, for if it could change then this would contradict the Scriptures which state that God’s decrees do not change (Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:9; Matthew 18:7; 26:54; Luke 22:22; Acts 2:23; 1 Corinthians 11:19). Even the most casual of instances are seen as part of the divine decree: accidental death (Exodus 21:12); lots (Proverbs 16:33); the preservation of the bones of Christ (John 19:36). Turretin states, “For the certainty does not arise from second causes, which are free and contingent, but extrinsically from the immutable decree.”[11] God’s purposes stand (Proverbs 19:21). God’s decrees in the purpose of salvation are not a matter of foreknowing who will do what or how well they did it, but of decreed completeness as God exercises His good pleasure in shaping a people for His very own (Deuteronomy 4:37; 7:6-8; 8:17; 9:4-6; Psalm 135:4; Ezekiel 16:1; Amos 3:8; Malachi 3:17). Based on that decree, the perseverance of the saint is secure – their salvation to the end is secure. If God decrees anything, such a decree renders the action certain to come to pass. But why is God’s will “iron” and “immovable” in this way? This is the next point.

 

Secondly, there is no change in the Divine being. What this means is that the character of God remains the same, and thus his promises remain the same. Why is this important to the saint and his perseverance? The divine being is immutable (has no fluctuation or change). An immutable, infinite, eternal, necessary act of God’s will cannot be violated or halted by the devil, by man, by beast or by anything at all. The essential characteristics of His nature dictate that this is so. God is immutably holy, immutably loving, immutably perfect, etc. (James 1:17; Mal. 3:6). Immutability is defined as something “not capable of or susceptible to change.” If God wills something, and God cannot change, then such a decree cannot change. John Gill states this rightly speaking of the perseverance of the Christian, “The immutability of God is concerned in this affair; I am the Lord, I change not, therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed (Malachi 3:6).”[12] Jacob, though treacherous, and his sons, though equally treacherous, are not consumed by the holiness of God because God does not change. He is immutable in his promises and His decrees. When God states that “I will lose none,” He is bound by divine oath to carry out that statement for He cannot lie. “I do not change” says God.

 

Imagine how horrible it would be if God were to change His promises. Imagine that the Christian reads that God holds out the promise of life, and God alone saves the sinner, “by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises.” (2 Peter 1:4) Imagine then, that the Christian dies, stands before God, and God says that He changed His mind and has decided to throw him into hell. To even think that such could be the case would remove all hope even from this life and make salvation (life even!) a sick joke. Hodge states, “The apostle’s confidence in the steadfastness and final perseverance of believers was founded neither on the strength of their purpose to persevere, nor on any assumption that the principle of religion in their hearts was indestructible, but simply on the fidelity of God.”[13] It is upon the immutability of God and His promises that such realties are able to take place, which otherwise would never take place. Gill says that may be further concluded “from the special and particular promises made in this covenant [i.e. promises], and which stand on divine record [i.e. promises], relating to the perseverance of the saints.”[14] Without the unchangeable nature of such promises, the Christian has no hope but what he can muster of himself. Such a possibility is sheer horror, and of no comfort to the soul at all. No. The unbreakable tenor of the promises of God rest in the nature of God and His will. His will is as unchanging as the promises that issue forth. The Christian can rest heartily on the reality that God is the sovereign Savior, and He will be true to His word.

 

Thirdly, there is no failure in the work of Christ. Christ shall accomplish all that He sets out to do. Within the Covenant of Redemption, where the Son enters into a covenant with the Father to “do His will” for the Redemption of his elect, John Owen describes this “covenant” as a “compact.” He says, “The…act of this sending is his entering into covenant and compact with his Son concerning the work to be undertaken, and the issue or event thereof.” Owen describes the Covenant of Redemption as a covenant where the Son must work, based on the Father’s decree to send Him to save and redeem sinners, “so as that God might be everlastingly glorified in the work which he was designed unto, and which by him he had to accomplish.” (Hebrews, 3:78)[15] Owen links this to the creative power of the Son in framing the worlds, that there would be a context in which His work would take place. However, though the Son takes up the “work” decreed for Him to accomplish, if men attempt to take up this work themselves, they will consistently fail. Owen says, “Those who seek him according to the law of works, and by the best of their obedience thereunto, shall never find him as a rewarder, nor attain that which they seek after; as the apostle expressly declares, Romans 9:31, 32.” (Hebrews, 6:56).”[16] The reason for this failure is their mutable inability to uphold the demands of the Law in any covenant. God must send a Mediator, then, to uphold His Law perfectly, and satisfy divine justice. Jesus Christ accomplishes this. Christ achieves this by coming into the world incarnate, and taking up the offices of the prophet, priest and king which He executes perfectly. He offers Himself as a sacrifice to God on behalf of His elect, chosen people. In doing so, He secures their salvation and by necessity, their perseverance. The Scriptures state that Christ saved his people, “, “And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins (Matthew 1:21); His sheep, “As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep (John 10:15);” His friends, “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends (John 15:13);” His church, “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood (Acts 20:28), and, “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it (Ephesians 5:25).” The Christian, then, sees the gift of eternal life as completed and finished, as Christ said, “It is finished.” They are able to hope in it as permanent, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren (Romans 8:29).” As Edwards so nicely states, “God, when he had laid out himself to glorify his mercy and grace in the redemption of poor fallen men, did not see meet [did not see fit], that those who are redeemed by Christ, should be redeemed so imperfectly, as still to have the work of perseverance left in their own hands.”[17] And again he says, “Again, Christ came into the world to do that in which mere men failed.”[18]

 

In knowing that the sacrifice of Christ is effectual, and actually saves, demonstrates that perseverance must follow, otherwise, Christ did nothing, and the Christian can hope in nothing. Many people feel as though they are saved, but that they always have the possibility of falling away hanging over their heads. This does injustice to the finished work of Christ on the cross. Christ is the Savior. Man cannot do anything to add to the blessed sacrifice of the Lord. Calvin demonstrates the absurdity of this when he says, “Then, how absurd it is that the certainty of faith be limited to some point of time, when by its very nature it looks to a future immortality after this life is over!”[19] In other words, if a Christian says they are saved right now, how certain can this be if they believe at any point they can fall away? Such a thought is absurd. Christ is the second Adam who fulfills God’s requirements and procures for His people their salvation, of which He shall lose nothing. Garlington states, “Therefore, the Adam/Christ analogy is intended to ground the final perseverance of the saints in the perseverance (obedience) of Christ himself, because the one who now lives by the power of an indissoluble life (Heb 7:16) was obedient unto death (Phil 2:8).”[20] Out of the reality of Christ’s obedience and sacrifice, Christians have the ability to be lead back to the law and to be obedient. They do not do this to gain eternal life, but to please Him who has already purchased it infallibly for His people.[21] John Owen rightly exhorts Christians to listen to the Word of Jesus Christ, “But will this be granted, that wherever the saints are said to hear the voice of Christ, perseverance is included? — we shall quickly have a fresh supply of Scripture proofs for the demonstration of the truth in hand. But what attempt is made for the proof hereof? “It is so because the words immediately following are, ‘I give unto them eternal life,’ which presuppose their final perseverance;” and this must be so, because it is so said. “I give unto them eternal life,” is either an intimation of what he doth for the present, by giving them a spiritual life in himself, or a promise he will do so with respect to eternal life consummated in heaven, which promise is everywhere made upon believing; and it is a promise of perseverance, not given upon perseverance.”[22]

 

Fourthly, there is no failure in the love of God to the elect. Though one may believe this should remain under the rubric of God’s character as immutable since He is love, it is still important to treat this in some manner separately since Christians often have a hard time believing they are accepted before God as sons and daughters. John Gill succinctly states, “The final perseverance of the saints, may be concluded from the everlasting love of God unto them. Those who are once the objects of God’s love, are always so; his love to them in every state and condition into which they come is invariable and unalterable: it is constant, permanent, perpetual, and for ever God loves his people with the same love he loves his Son, and therefore it will always continue; and if it always continues, it is impossible they should ever perish; can a man perish everlastingly, and yet be the object of everlasting love? the love of God to him must cease, or he can never perish; God always rests in his love to his people; it is more immovable than hills and mountains; they may depart, but his loving-kindness never shall, that is from everlasting to everlasting; I have loved thee, saith the Lord (Jeremiah 31:3), with an everlasting love, therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.” [these] things were written aforetime, were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope (Romans 15:4).”[23] God’s everlasting love cannot desire something it cannot have and will not have. If God loves the Christian, then for all time, the Christian shall be loved by an immutable love that never changes. The reason such a love rests on the Christian is that Christ dwells in them and His righteousness covers them. God then sees the Christian as if looking at Jesus Christ. It is His righteousness, the imputation of the active obedience of Christ to the law of God kept perfectly, that justifies us in His sight. It is His cross, his propitiation of God’s wrath and expiation of our sin, that secures our place in the redemption plan of the elect. God loves His people and the Scriptures demonstrate this love over and over: Romans 5:8, “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 2 Corinthians 5:14, “For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died.” Ephesians 5:2, “And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.” 2 Timothy 1:7, “For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.” 1 John 3:16, “By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us.” 1 John 4:10, “In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.” It is difficult to ponder the reality that God loves sinful men. However, it is a reality nonetheless. If He begins to love them, and has decreed to save them by this love, they shall never be lost. They shall persevere to the end and be saved. The Christian must believe this as 1 John 4:16 exhorts, “And we have known and believed the love that God has for us.” Pink says, “God does not love His people because they love Him. No, we read of “His great love wherewith He loved us even when we were dead in sins” (Ephesians 2:4, 5): when we had no desire to be loved by Him, yea when we were provoking Him to His face and displaying the fierce enmity of our unrenewed hearts.”[24] What might the Christian do to please God? What righteous deed might they do in order to win over His favor? Nothing. God loves His people because He loves them through Jesus Christ. His love is immutable and unchangeable. The sons of Jacob are not consumed by God’s anger against their sin because He does not change, and He cannot change. His love is everlasting. Jeremiahs 31:3, “Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love.”

 

The doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints has withstood the test of time and critic. It is rooted and grounded in the bible and gives the saint an infallible assurance of salvation, though presses him on to good work in grateful humility before his sovereign Benefactor. It is by way of awe and reverence, incomprehensible to the Christian heart. It is not that it is incomprehensible to the brain – Christians can certainly see this from Scripture quite clearly if they take the time to read through the Bible. But it forces the Christian into a state of awe due to God’s immeasurable love for him that is undeserved. It is a real truth, but a high truth. Dort, in summing up the positive aspects of this doctrine in their section on perseverance says, that God has impressed this truth to the hearts of believers, but there are outside influences that desire to destroy it, “The carnal mind is unable to comprehend this doctrine of the perseverance of the saints and the certainty thereof, which God has most abundantly revealed in His Word, for the glory of His Name and the consolation of pious souls, and which He impresses upon the hearts of the believers. Satan abhors it, the world ridicules it, the ignorant and hypocritical abuse it, and the heretics oppose it.” Though opposition stands in the way of the assurance of the Christian, the Sovereign God of the Universe, and His Son Jesus Christ, are upholding him even when he may feel deceived as to the truth of it. Dort continues to say, “But the bride of Christ has always most tenderly loved and constantly defended it as an inestimable treasure; and God, against whom neither counsel nor strength can prevail, will dispose her so to continue to the end. Now to this one God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, be honor and glory forever. Amen.”[25] Christians should never doubt God at His word. God says He will save and Christ does the saving. The Christian must remember the promises of God and say along with Hodge, “If God of his own good pleasure elects some [me] to eternal life, they cannot fail of salvation.”[26]

 

Perseverance of the Saints by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon

 

Perseverance of the Saints does not mean “once saved always saved”. This corruption of the doctrine has been popular in recent years, but has never been a true representation of the of the teaching of the Bible. “Once saved always saved” is more likely called “Perseverance of the sinner” instead of “the saint”. For it teaches that man can be saved by Christ and then sin habitually, doing whatever he wants, and still “persevere to the end”. Perseverance of the saints does not teach this.

 

Perseverance of the saints teaches that once God has renewed the heart of a sinner through the application of the redemption wrought by Christ upon the cross, he will continue to be saved and show forth the fruits of that salvation. The sinner perseveres because of Christ, but he continually shows himself as one who has been changed by Christ. God has saved the individual and will sanctify him until the end when he is ultimately glorified, and in heaven. It does not mean man has a license to sin. Those who think they have a license to sin are not changed and saved by grace. They are still in sin. Those who are saved by grace and changed, desire to show forth the fruits of that salvation. God motions the heart to good work, and continues that good work to the end.

 

Christians may fall into grievous sins through the temptations of Satan and of the world. They fall into sins because of the corruption remaining in them, and they neglect the means of grace which aids them in their preservation. For a time they may even continue in such sin. By this they incur God’s displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit (“And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption,” (Eph. 4:30). They become deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts. They have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded. They even sometimes hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporary judgments on themselves. (The 1647 Westminster Confession, 17:3. When we sin against God we displease Christ and hurt ourselves. Matt. 26:70, 72, 74; Psalm 51 title with verse 14; 2 Sam. 11:27; Isa. 64:5, 7, 9; Eph. 4:30; Psalm 51:8, 10, 12; Song of Songs 5:2-4, 6; Rev. 2:4; Isa. 63:17; Mark 6:52; 16:14; Psalm 32:3-4; 51:8; 2 Sam. 12:14; Psalm 89:31-32; 1 Cor. 11:32.)

 

A few verses on Perseverance of the Saints

 

  • John 6:37-39, “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”
  • Phil. 1:6, “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:”
  • 1 Thess. 5:23-24, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.”
  • 2 Tim. 4:18, “And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
  • 1 Peter 1:23, “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”
  • Romans 8:29, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
  • Ephesians 2:10, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
  • Consider God’s Preservation in Heb. 1:3; Col. 1:17; Neh. 9:6; 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:6; Isa. 41:10.

 

Puritan Quotations on Perseverance of the Saints:

 

  • “God’s decree is the very pillar and basis on which the saints’ perseverance depends. That decree ties the knot of adoption so fast, that neither sin, death, nor hell, can break it asunder.”
  • Thomas Watson
  • “In our first paradise in Eden there was a way to go out but no way to go in again. But as for the heavenly paradise, there is a way to go in, but not a way to go out.” Richard Baxter
  • “”It may be that we are sinful; but God did not love us for our goodness, neither will he cast us off for our wickedness. Yet this is no encouragement to licentiousness, for God knows how to put us to anguishes and straits and crosses, and yet to reserve everlasting life for us. ” John Cotton
  • “Though Christians be not kept altogether from falling, yet they are kept from falling altogether.” William Secker.
  • “This truth is perceived [perseverance of the saints] and made certain in us in these ways: First, by a certain spiritual sense in which the grace of God now present becomes known and evident to the believer. Second, by the gift of discernment through which believers distinguish true grace from its shadow. Third, by the whisper and witness of conscience in which grace and salvation are made fast for believers, just as sin and death for unbelievers. Fourth, the Spirit of God so confirms to believers these ways of perceiving that they have the same certainty as faith itself…This certainty follows upon the perceiving of faith and repentance, where the free covenant of God is rightly understood.” William Ames

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Truthfrees
2 hours ago, William said:

No, but they are addressing a problematic area for OSAS. The person seemingly has an issue with eternal security. Most people that adhere to works righteousness or performance based salvation take issue with eternal security.

 

Calvinism addresses the natural man in Total Depravity and what your non-Calvinist colleague is possibly (giving them the benefit of the doubt) pointing out is that the natural man shouldn't have assurance of eternal security because they once paid lip service or "professed faith" which is not genuinely evident in their daily lives today.

 

I'm not going to defend OSAS because I am a Calvinist. As a Calvinist let me point out that OSAS seemingly suggests that God "preserves the sinner" rather than conveying the Calvinist doctrine of the Perseverance of the saints.

 

 

OSAS and the Calvinist doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints both teach eternal security.

 

OSAS is not a Calvinist doctrine and in my opinion de-emphasizes the believer's accountability and responsibility for sins.

 

However, critics that oppose eternal security are probably going to contest both OSAS and Perseverance of the Saints alike.

 

My main reservations with OSAS as a watered down Calvinist doctrine is that it gives assurance to false converts which may of once said the sinner's prayer or engaged in an altar call and think that they need not be changed in heart or mind. Emphasizing the T.U.L.I. the final P teaches regenerate believers ought live more worthily of the Grace which they received and such genuine faith is evidenced by works in the life of the believer. These works do not justify man before God but justify our faith before other men. This is something you'll find from those that "once believed and no longer believe" could not fake. They literally could not persevere to the very last day.

 

Matt Slick of CARM is a fellow Calvinist. Looks like Matt wrote up a brief survey of eternal security:

 

CARM.ORG

Eternity security: We are regenerated, and because of regeneration from God, we war against our sin. We do not consider it a license to sin. God will...

 

A more comprehensive historical or classical approach to the Calvinist doctrine Perseverance of the Saints by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon of "A Puritan's Mind" or Puritan Board (Yes, he too is a Calvinist):

 

The Synod of Dort explains the doctrine of perseverance concisely. First they state that even though Christians are saved, they still sin. Though they have been delivered from the bondage of sin, and sin no longer reigns or has rule over them, they still fall into grievous sins.[2] However, though Christians sin, God still preserves them that they may not utterly fall away. Dort says, “By reason of these remains of indwelling sin, and also because of the temptations of the world and of Satan, those who are converted could not persevere in that grace if left to their own strength. But God is faithful, who, having conferred grace, mercifully confirms and powerfully preserves them therein, even to the end.”[3] If men are left to themselves, without the powerful working of God’s Holy Spirit to motion them to good works, they will never be able to motion themselves without His help. Hypothetically speaking, if the Christian man has the power of God removed from him, he would simply be a fallen sinner. What can a fallen sinner do against sin but remain enslaved in it? The Spirit of God must motion the Christian to good works, and must be the agent that secures the application of the power of the cross to the Christian’s soul. That is why Dort says, “But God is faithful…” It is not that man has power to sustain himself, but that God must preserve Him by grace. Oftentimes, then, theologians call “The Perseverance of the Saints” as “The Preservation of the Saints.”

 

There are common misconceptions about the doctrine of The Perseverance of the Saints. This doctrine does not mean “once saved always saved”. This corruption of the doctrine has been popular in recent years, but has never been a true representation of the doctrine. “Once saved always saved” is more keenly given the name “Perseverance of the Sinner” instead of “the saint” for it teaches that man can be saved by Christ and then sin habitually, do whatever he wants, and still “persevere to the end”. It is often used as an excuse and caricature of the Reformed doctrines of grace because such a teaching does in fact bring reproach on those who would believe it. The Bible does not say that a man can be a Christian and may never change. To say that one is eternally secure and that such a man may still sin any way is a false misrepresentation of the doctrine as a whole.

 

Perseverance of the saints teaches that once God has renewed the heart of a sinner through the application of the redemption wrought by Christ upon the cross, He will continue to be saved and show forth the fruits of that salvation. The sinner perseveres because of Christ, but he continually shows himself as one who has been changed by Christ. God has saved the individual and will sanctify him until the end when he is ultimately glorified, and in heaven. It does not mean man has a license to sin. Dort explains this well in that if a Christian should fall, God “preserves in them the incorruptible seed of regeneration from perishing or being totally lost.”[4] The sovereign work of the Spirit on the heart of the individual cannot be undone (John 3:1-16). It is the same sentiments that Peter states, “1 Peter 1:23, “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.” Regeneration, the changing of the heart from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh, cannot be revoked. It is a deposit of an incorruptible seed that cannot be taken away. Just after a long two-chapter discourse on election, Paul, in Romans 11:29, says, “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” Thus, if the Scripture is to stand firm, and the promises of God cannot be revoked, then perseverance is a biblical and logical necessity. If the opposite of this were true, Christians would be miserable people. Calvin says, “A fine confidence of salvation is left to us, if by moral conjecture we judge that at the present moment we are in grace, but we know not what will become of us tomorrow! The apostle speaks far otherwise: “I am surely convinced that neither angels, nor powers, nor principalities, nor death, nor life, nor things present, nor things to come…will separate us from the love by which the Lord embraces us in Christ” [Romans 8:38-39 p.].”[5]

 

Why do theologians call the doctrine “The Perseverance of the Saints?” Why not, “The Preservation of the Saints by God?” The reason lies in the emphasis that since election is true, and God preserves the Christian, that they must demonstrate this true preservation by their outward conformity to the Word of God. In other words, the fruit of the life demonstrate that they are truly saved and will truly persevere. Dorst says that such a salvation “renders them much more careful and solicitous to continue in the ways of the Lord,”[6] not to continue in sin. It is important to note that such works do not save them, or improve on the promises of the salvation they have in Christ. But they do demonstrate that they have been saved. The fruit of a tree does not make the tree good or bad, but demonstrates whether the tree is a good tree or a bad tree. It is fitting to say, then, that the saints of God must persevere, and in that perseverance is demonstrated the preservation of God.

 

There are numerous Scriptures that demonstrate the final perseverance of the believer. Christ says in John 6:37-39, “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” Jesus Christ will lose none that the Father has given him. He will not lose one. He will raise them up in the last day. All that the Father has deposited unto the Son, and all for whom the Son intercedes shall be saved. Paul says in Phil. 1:6, “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:” Christians can be confident that God will continue and finish the work he had begun in them as a result of the work of Christ and its continued application by the power of the Sprit of God. Calvin says, “This declaration is clearly against the schoolmen, who idly talk and say, that no one is certain of final perseverance, except through the gift of special revelation, which they make to be very rare. By such a dogma the whole faith is destroyed, which is certainly nothing, except it extends to death and beyond death. But we, on the contrary, ought to feel confident, that he who has begun in us a good work, will carry it on until the day of the Lord Jesus.”[7] God is always faithful to His promises as 1 Thess. 5:23-24 says, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.” God will do it. There are reasons that we will explore as to “why” God will do this, but we have written for our hope the truth that He will. God will preserve His people blameless until the coming of Christ, and then at that time He will glorify them. Paul was confident of this for himself when he said, “And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen (2 Tim. 4:18).” Such a life of preservation is echoed in Ephesians 2:10 where, just after Paul says that Christians have been saved by grace through faith, the real emphasis on election and preservation comes forth when he says, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” God ordains the steps of the Christian and orders the very works that they shall do to glorify Him in the truth.

 

Though the Scriptures are plain that God preserves His children to the end, there are Scriptures that demonstrate the possibility of falling from grace and winding up in hell. Is this a contradiction to the doctrine of the saint’s perseverance? Not at all. It may seem at the outset that it is, especially using the wording above, but if time is taken to look at passages that seem contradictory, the true nature of those statements becomes evident. One such passage is Hebrews 6:3-6. This is probably the most famous passage that is most often quoted again the doctrine of perseverance all through church history, and it will do well as an example. It reads, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” This is a serious list. These people have been 1) enlightened, 2) have tasted the heavenly gift, 3) have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 4) have tasted the good Word of God, 5) have tasted of the powers of the age to come, and, most critically, they 6) have the possibility of falling away. The text is saying that though all these things have occurred, these “professing Christians” will utterly miscarry their souls into all eternity. Does this sound like perseverance? This sounds more like a warning to instill fear rather than assurance! However, one key unlocks the meaning of the passage that is often overlooked. If the Christian would continue reading he would find that the writer of Hebrews makes a valid distinction between these people in verse 3-6, and the true Christian who will be saved. In verse 9 it says, “But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.” Better things? Things that accompany salvation? It is clear that in the mind of the writer of this inspired epistle, he does not equate what he formally says in verses 3-6 to salvation. Whatever the writer is talking about in being enlightened, tasting the heavenly gift and the like, he is not speaking about salvation. In verse 9 he is quite sure that the brethren spoken about here are in contrast to these other people who seem to fall away. In actuality, these people were never saved though they, in some way, partook of the covenant community and the blessings there. There is a dividing line between those who are saved (verse 9) and those who are under some kind of strong delusion that allows them to believe they are saved (verses 3-6). Those acts mentioned in verse 3-6 are things that do not accompany salvation and should not be confused with the idea that Christians who are truly regenerated may ultimately fall away and become lost. Christians have the Holy Spirit residing in them as a regenerated elect sinner. However, this list in verses 3-6 are not regenerating ordinances at all. The problem lies in the human inability to distinguish who are the elect and who are not. “While regeneration is irreversible and leads to final perseverance, in the visible Church it is not humanly possible to infallibly distinguish the truly regenerate from those who are not.”[8] That is why Christians who are not theologically sound make rash judgments about the nature of election because they see that a person they thought was a Christian finally falls away and goes back to the pig pen of the world. In this they believe that Christians fall away and that places them in a state of terror believing they might do the same.

 

Though having a healthy fear of falling away is not in itself bad, the continued state of un-assurance will render the Christian pressed into a state of spiritual depression, or simply one who thinks that salvation and assurance are totally on their shoulders. Rather, in the infallible work of Jesus Christ there is the union of the believer and the Lord which remains inseparable. The Westminster Larger Catechism asks this in question 79, “May not true believers, by reason of their imperfections, and the many temptations and sins they are overtaken with, fall away from the state of grace?

 

The answer is given, “True believers, by reason of the unchangeable love of God, and his decree and covenant to give them perseverance, their inseparable union with Christ, his continual intercession for them, and the Spirit and seed of God abiding in them, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. (Jer. 31:3; 2 Tim. 2:19-21; 2 Sam. 23:5; 1 Cor. 1:8-9; Heb. 7:25; Luke 22:32; 1 John 2:27; 3:9; Jer. 32:40; John 10:28; 1 Peter 1:5).” There are too many biblical factors that overthrow man’s ability to thwart the salvation attained by God. Perseverance of the Saints can be seen in a number of various scriptural lights. The Scriptures are exceedingly plain as to the reasons that it presses into the conscience of the Christian the truth of the matter that God is truly the Savior and He will save His people from their sins. They are, 1) There is no failure in the decreed counsel of God. 2) There is no change in the Divine being (which is essential to this doctrine of perseverance), 3) There is no failure in the work of Christ, 4) There is no failure in the Love of God to the elect, and 5) the elect cannot cease to be what they are by God’s decree.

 

First, there is no failure in the decreed counsel of God. Everything which resides within the mind of God is not potential but is an eternal actual. A fancy name given to this actuality, so finite human beings can grasp the idea in some sense, is an Eternal Decree. The eternal decree of God is that perfect, complete, infinite plan from which all things transpire in our time and space as history unfolds. It is the next step in understanding the Eternal Counsel, more appropriately, what God did in that counsel. God has planned this decree carefully and to its most minute detail. Jesus says, “Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs on your head are all numbered (Matthew 10:29,30).” How infinite is this great Continuum where God himself numbers the hairs on your head! He is there when every sparrow falls for His plan is vast. He leaves nothing to chance nor anything to a whimsical fling. All things are under His power and authority and all things have been planned accordingly (Genesis 50:20; Psalm 75:9-25; John 10:29). “Divine salvation is a supernatural work which produces supernatural effects.”[9]

 

The decrees of God are purposed filled. The decreed counsel of God is the will of God willed in purpose. God’s knowledge is eternal, as is His essence. Therefore, it is necessary that the decree upon which this is set forth is also eternal. Every decree of God is eternal. We lower God’s standards when we see that God’s redemptive, eternal plan rests on the will of man apart from God. Nothing functions apart from the will of the Divine Creator and sustainer of life. For if God is so impotent that He must wait on man for His will to be effectual, then He is hardly a God at all. The Westminster Confession of Faith says, “God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass.”[10] All things are decreed by God in an eternal and unchangeable act. This decree takes place at an appointed time and nothing can change it, for if it could change then this would contradict the Scriptures which state that God’s decrees do not change (Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:9; Matthew 18:7; 26:54; Luke 22:22; Acts 2:23; 1 Corinthians 11:19). Even the most casual of instances are seen as part of the divine decree: accidental death (Exodus 21:12); lots (Proverbs 16:33); the preservation of the bones of Christ (John 19:36). Turretin states, “For the certainty does not arise from second causes, which are free and contingent, but extrinsically from the immutable decree.”[11] God’s purposes stand (Proverbs 19:21). God’s decrees in the purpose of salvation are not a matter of foreknowing who will do what or how well they did it, but of decreed completeness as God exercises His good pleasure in shaping a people for His very own (Deuteronomy 4:37; 7:6-8; 8:17; 9:4-6; Psalm 135:4; Ezekiel 16:1; Amos 3:8; Malachi 3:17). Based on that decree, the perseverance of the saint is secure – their salvation to the end is secure. If God decrees anything, such a decree renders the action certain to come to pass. But why is God’s will “iron” and “immovable” in this way? This is the next point.

 

Secondly, there is no change in the Divine being. What this means is that the character of God remains the same, and thus his promises remain the same. Why is this important to the saint and his perseverance? The divine being is immutable (has no fluctuation or change). An immutable, infinite, eternal, necessary act of God’s will cannot be violated or halted by the devil, by man, by beast or by anything at all. The essential characteristics of His nature dictate that this is so. God is immutably holy, immutably loving, immutably perfect, etc. (James 1:17; Mal. 3:6). Immutability is defined as something “not capable of or susceptible to change.” If God wills something, and God cannot change, then such a decree cannot change. John Gill states this rightly speaking of the perseverance of the Christian, “The immutability of God is concerned in this affair; I am the Lord, I change not, therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed (Malachi 3:6).”[12] Jacob, though treacherous, and his sons, though equally treacherous, are not consumed by the holiness of God because God does not change. He is immutable in his promises and His decrees. When God states that “I will lose none,” He is bound by divine oath to carry out that statement for He cannot lie. “I do not change” says God.

 

Imagine how horrible it would be if God were to change His promises. Imagine that the Christian reads that God holds out the promise of life, and God alone saves the sinner, “by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises.” (2 Peter 1:4) Imagine then, that the Christian dies, stands before God, and God says that He changed His mind and has decided to throw him into hell. To even think that such could be the case would remove all hope even from this life and make salvation (life even!) a sick joke. Hodge states, “The apostle’s confidence in the steadfastness and final perseverance of believers was founded neither on the strength of their purpose to persevere, nor on any assumption that the principle of religion in their hearts was indestructible, but simply on the fidelity of God.”[13] It is upon the immutability of God and His promises that such realties are able to take place, which otherwise would never take place. Gill says that may be further concluded “from the special and particular promises made in this covenant [i.e. promises], and which stand on divine record [i.e. promises], relating to the perseverance of the saints.”[14] Without the unchangeable nature of such promises, the Christian has no hope but what he can muster of himself. Such a possibility is sheer horror, and of no comfort to the soul at all. No. The unbreakable tenor of the promises of God rest in the nature of God and His will. His will is as unchanging as the promises that issue forth. The Christian can rest heartily on the reality that God is the sovereign Savior, and He will be true to His word.

 

Thirdly, there is no failure in the work of Christ. Christ shall accomplish all that He sets out to do. Within the Covenant of Redemption, where the Son enters into a covenant with the Father to “do His will” for the Redemption of his elect, John Owen describes this “covenant” as a “compact.” He says, “The…act of this sending is his entering into covenant and compact with his Son concerning the work to be undertaken, and the issue or event thereof.” Owen describes the Covenant of Redemption as a covenant where the Son must work, based on the Father’s decree to send Him to save and redeem sinners, “so as that God might be everlastingly glorified in the work which he was designed unto, and which by him he had to accomplish.” (Hebrews, 3:78)[15] Owen links this to the creative power of the Son in framing the worlds, that there would be a context in which His work would take place. However, though the Son takes up the “work” decreed for Him to accomplish, if men attempt to take up this work themselves, they will consistently fail. Owen says, “Those who seek him according to the law of works, and by the best of their obedience thereunto, shall never find him as a rewarder, nor attain that which they seek after; as the apostle expressly declares, Romans 9:31, 32.” (Hebrews, 6:56).”[16] The reason for this failure is their mutable inability to uphold the demands of the Law in any covenant. God must send a Mediator, then, to uphold His Law perfectly, and satisfy divine justice. Jesus Christ accomplishes this. Christ achieves this by coming into the world incarnate, and taking up the offices of the prophet, priest and king which He executes perfectly. He offers Himself as a sacrifice to God on behalf of His elect, chosen people. In doing so, He secures their salvation and by necessity, their perseverance. The Scriptures state that Christ saved his people, “, “And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins (Matthew 1:21); His sheep, “As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep (John 10:15);” His friends, “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends (John 15:13);” His church, “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood (Acts 20:28), and, “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it (Ephesians 5:25).” The Christian, then, sees the gift of eternal life as completed and finished, as Christ said, “It is finished.” They are able to hope in it as permanent, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren (Romans 8:29).” As Edwards so nicely states, “God, when he had laid out himself to glorify his mercy and grace in the redemption of poor fallen men, did not see meet [did not see fit], that those who are redeemed by Christ, should be redeemed so imperfectly, as still to have the work of perseverance left in their own hands.”[17] And again he says, “Again, Christ came into the world to do that in which mere men failed.”[18]

 

In knowing that the sacrifice of Christ is effectual, and actually saves, demonstrates that perseverance must follow, otherwise, Christ did nothing, and the Christian can hope in nothing. Many people feel as though they are saved, but that they always have the possibility of falling away hanging over their heads. This does injustice to the finished work of Christ on the cross. Christ is the Savior. Man cannot do anything to add to the blessed sacrifice of the Lord. Calvin demonstrates the absurdity of this when he says, “Then, how absurd it is that the certainty of faith be limited to some point of time, when by its very nature it looks to a future immortality after this life is over!”[19] In other words, if a Christian says they are saved right now, how certain can this be if they believe at any point they can fall away? Such a thought is absurd. Christ is the second Adam who fulfills God’s requirements and procures for His people their salvation, of which He shall lose nothing. Garlington states, “Therefore, the Adam/Christ analogy is intended to ground the final perseverance of the saints in the perseverance (obedience) of Christ himself, because the one who now lives by the power of an indissoluble life (Heb 7:16) was obedient unto death (Phil 2:8).”[20] Out of the reality of Christ’s obedience and sacrifice, Christians have the ability to be lead back to the law and to be obedient. They do not do this to gain eternal life, but to please Him who has already purchased it infallibly for His people.[21] John Owen rightly exhorts Christians to listen to the Word of Jesus Christ, “But will this be granted, that wherever the saints are said to hear the voice of Christ, perseverance is included? — we shall quickly have a fresh supply of Scripture proofs for the demonstration of the truth in hand. But what attempt is made for the proof hereof? “It is so because the words immediately following are, ‘I give unto them eternal life,’ which presuppose their final perseverance;” and this must be so, because it is so said. “I give unto them eternal life,” is either an intimation of what he doth for the present, by giving them a spiritual life in himself, or a promise he will do so with respect to eternal life consummated in heaven, which promise is everywhere made upon believing; and it is a promise of perseverance, not given upon perseverance.”[22]

 

Fourthly, there is no failure in the love of God to the elect. Though one may believe this should remain under the rubric of God’s character as immutable since He is love, it is still important to treat this in some manner separately since Christians often have a hard time believing they are accepted before God as sons and daughters. John Gill succinctly states, “The final perseverance of the saints, may be concluded from the everlasting love of God unto them. Those who are once the objects of God’s love, are always so; his love to them in every state and condition into which they come is invariable and unalterable: it is constant, permanent, perpetual, and for ever God loves his people with the same love he loves his Son, and therefore it will always continue; and if it always continues, it is impossible they should ever perish; can a man perish everlastingly, and yet be the object of everlasting love? the love of God to him must cease, or he can never perish; God always rests in his love to his people; it is more immovable than hills and mountains; they may depart, but his loving-kindness never shall, that is from everlasting to everlasting; I have loved thee, saith the Lord (Jeremiah 31:3), with an everlasting love, therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.” [these] things were written aforetime, were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope (Romans 15:4).”[23] God’s everlasting love cannot desire something it cannot have and will not have. If God loves the Christian, then for all time, the Christian shall be loved by an immutable love that never changes. The reason such a love rests on the Christian is that Christ dwells in them and His righteousness covers them. God then sees the Christian as if looking at Jesus Christ. It is His righteousness, the imputation of the active obedience of Christ to the law of God kept perfectly, that justifies us in His sight. It is His cross, his propitiation of God’s wrath and expiation of our sin, that secures our place in the redemption plan of the elect. God loves His people and the Scriptures demonstrate this love over and over: Romans 5:8, “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 2 Corinthians 5:14, “For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died.” Ephesians 5:2, “And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.” 2 Timothy 1:7, “For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.” 1 John 3:16, “By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us.” 1 John 4:10, “In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.” It is difficult to ponder the reality that God loves sinful men. However, it is a reality nonetheless. If He begins to love them, and has decreed to save them by this love, they shall never be lost. They shall persevere to the end and be saved. The Christian must believe this as 1 John 4:16 exhorts, “And we have known and believed the love that God has for us.” Pink says, “God does not love His people because they love Him. No, we read of “His great love wherewith He loved us even when we were dead in sins” (Ephesians 2:4, 5😞 when we had no desire to be loved by Him, yea when we were provoking Him to His face and displaying the fierce enmity of our unrenewed hearts.”[24] What might the Christian do to please God? What righteous deed might they do in order to win over His favor? Nothing. God loves His people because He loves them through Jesus Christ. His love is immutable and unchangeable. The sons of Jacob are not consumed by God’s anger against their sin because He does not change, and He cannot change. His love is everlasting. Jeremiahs 31:3, “Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love.”

 

The doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints has withstood the test of time and critic. It is rooted and grounded in the bible and gives the saint an infallible assurance of salvation, though presses him on to good work in grateful humility before his sovereign Benefactor. It is by way of awe and reverence, incomprehensible to the Christian heart. It is not that it is incomprehensible to the brain – Christians can certainly see this from Scripture quite clearly if they take the time to read through the Bible. But it forces the Christian into a state of awe due to God’s immeasurable love for him that is undeserved. It is a real truth, but a high truth. Dort, in summing up the positive aspects of this doctrine in their section on perseverance says, that God has impressed this truth to the hearts of believers, but there are outside influences that desire to destroy it, “The carnal mind is unable to comprehend this doctrine of the perseverance of the saints and the certainty thereof, which God has most abundantly revealed in His Word, for the glory of His Name and the consolation of pious souls, and which He impresses upon the hearts of the believers. Satan abhors it, the world ridicules it, the ignorant and hypocritical abuse it, and the heretics oppose it.” Though opposition stands in the way of the assurance of the Christian, the Sovereign God of the Universe, and His Son Jesus Christ, are upholding him even when he may feel deceived as to the truth of it. Dort continues to say, “But the bride of Christ has always most tenderly loved and constantly defended it as an inestimable treasure; and God, against whom neither counsel nor strength can prevail, will dispose her so to continue to the end. Now to this one God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, be honor and glory forever. Amen.”[25] Christians should never doubt God at His word. God says He will save and Christ does the saving. The Christian must remember the promises of God and say along with Hodge, “If God of his own good pleasure elects some [me] to eternal life, they cannot fail of salvation.”[26]

 

Perseverance of the Saints by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon

 

Perseverance of the Saints does not mean “once saved always saved”. This corruption of the doctrine has been popular in recent years, but has never been a true representation of the of the teaching of the Bible. “Once saved always saved” is more likely called “Perseverance of the sinner” instead of “the saint”. For it teaches that man can be saved by Christ and then sin habitually, doing whatever he wants, and still “persevere to the end”. Perseverance of the saints does not teach this.

 

Perseverance of the saints teaches that once God has renewed the heart of a sinner through the application of the redemption wrought by Christ upon the cross, he will continue to be saved and show forth the fruits of that salvation. The sinner perseveres because of Christ, but he continually shows himself as one who has been changed by Christ. God has saved the individual and will sanctify him until the end when he is ultimately glorified, and in heaven. It does not mean man has a license to sin. Those who think they have a license to sin are not changed and saved by grace. They are still in sin. Those who are saved by grace and changed, desire to show forth the fruits of that salvation. God motions the heart to good work, and continues that good work to the end.

 

Christians may fall into grievous sins through the temptations of Satan and of the world. They fall into sins because of the corruption remaining in them, and they neglect the means of grace which aids them in their preservation. For a time they may even continue in such sin. By this they incur God’s displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit (“And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption,” (Eph. 4:30). They become deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts. They have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded. They even sometimes hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporary judgments on themselves. (The 1647 Westminster Confession, 17:3. When we sin against God we displease Christ and hurt ourselves. Matt. 26:70, 72, 74; Psalm 51 title with verse 14; 2 Sam. 11:27; Isa. 64:5, 7, 9; Eph. 4:30; Psalm 51:8, 10, 12; Song of Songs 5:2-4, 6; Rev. 2:4; Isa. 63:17; Mark 6:52; 16:14; Psalm 32:3-4; 51:8; 2 Sam. 12:14; Psalm 89:31-32; 1 Cor. 11:32.)

 

A few verses on Perseverance of the Saints

 

  • John 6:37-39, “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”
  • Phil. 1:6, “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:”
  • 1 Thess. 5:23-24, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.”
  • 2 Tim. 4:18, “And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
  • 1 Peter 1:23, “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”
  • Romans 8:29, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
  • Ephesians 2:10, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
  • Consider God’s Preservation in Heb. 1:3; Col. 1:17; Neh. 9:6; 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:6; Isa. 41:10.

 

Puritan Quotations on Perseverance of the Saints:

 

  • “God’s decree is the very pillar and basis on which the saints’ perseverance depends. That decree ties the knot of adoption so fast, that neither sin, death, nor hell, can break it asunder.”
  • Thomas Watson
  • “In our first paradise in Eden there was a way to go out but no way to go in again. But as for the heavenly paradise, there is a way to go in, but not a way to go out.” Richard Baxter
  • “”It may be that we are sinful; but God did not love us for our goodness, neither will he cast us off for our wickedness. Yet this is no encouragement to licentiousness, for God knows how to put us to anguishes and straits and crosses, and yet to reserve everlasting life for us. ” John Cotton
  • “Though Christians be not kept altogether from falling, yet they are kept from falling altogether.” William Secker.
  • “This truth is perceived [perseverance of the saints] and made certain in us in these ways: First, by a certain spiritual sense in which the grace of God now present becomes known and evident to the believer. Second, by the gift of discernment through which believers distinguish true grace from its shadow. Third, by the whisper and witness of conscience in which grace and salvation are made fast for believers, just as sin and death for unbelievers. Fourth, the Spirit of God so confirms to believers these ways of perceiving that they have the same certainty as faith itself…This certainty follows upon the perceiving of faith and repentance, where the free covenant of God is rightly understood.” William Ames

ok - thank you for this - very interesting - if i understand this article correctly i came to the same conclusions

 

is there a group that you can think of that believe they are saved and can sin all they want?

 

is osas then a critics misunderstanding and mislabeling of perseverance of the saints?

 

the statement made to me is that osas / perseverance of the saints / and eternal security are all the same? - but if i understand correctly perseverance of the saints and eternal security are the same but osas is different?

Edited by Truthfrees

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William
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35 minutes ago, Truthfrees said:

ok - thank you for this - very interesting - if i understand this article correctly i came to the same conclusions

 

is there a group that you can think of that believe they are saved and can sin all they want?

 

is osas then a critics misunderstanding and mislabeling of perseverance of the saints?

I think that OSAS "implies" that one may sin all they want. If I were forced to pick a camp which believes they can live a sinful lifestyle then I'd choose "liberal theologians". They're the ones promoting the LGBT movement under the label of Christianity, and "reason" away any Scriptures by discrediting the authority of the Scriptures and making them only applicable for a time or culture. According to them one may live the homosexual lifestyle and be assured of salvation. This is quite ironic, because OSAS is actually taught by Baptist which began "fundamentalism" to combat liberal theologians and the post modern movement. However, among the Baptist there are "Reformed Baptist" which are Calvinist. If you read the news today Calvinism is being revived and many "unwitting or theologically ignorant" Baptist suggest that Calvinism is dividing the Baptist denomination. They actually reject the historical theology of the Baptist denomination. A lot of these people (generalization) think that Calvinism is replacing OSAS when in fact OSAS is a watered down doctrine of Calvinism.

 

But giving critics the benefit of the doubt the two things both camps (OSAS and Calvinist) are teaching is "eternal security". Those critics are probably only superficially understanding each doctrine and ignoring doctrinal differences while rejecting the eternal security which both have in common. Many people only see similarities when exhibiting superficial knowledge of a subject matter. For example, all religions are the same.

 

I am willing to bet (liberal theologians aside) that most of these "critics" adhere to works righteousness or performance based salvation. They're rejecting eternal security under the label of OSAS rather than for more indepth theological reasoning found in Perseverance of the saints. As far as critics "misunderstanding" or "mislabeling" I personally believe this is symptomatic of persons which do not have a passion for theology.

 

Any doctrine should be "Apostolic" or taught in the Scriptures. Let the Scriptures as a whole (Systematically) discern which is correct.

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Truthfrees
3 minutes ago, William said:

I will say that OSAS "implies" that one may sin all they want.

 

But giving them the benefit of the doubt the two things both camps are teaching is "eternal security". Those critics are probably only superficially understanding each doctrinal difference and rejecting the eternal security which both have in common.

 

I am willing to bet that most of these critics adhere to works righteousness or performance based salvation.  They're rejecting eternal security rather than rejecting OSAS for more indepth theological reasoning in preference of Perseverance of the saints. 

 

Any doctrine should be "Apostolic" or taught in the Scriptures. Let the Scriptures as a whole (Systematically) discern which is correct.

works righteousness might be a part of it - i'm not sure what they believe on that - i think they believe in the grace of God - i will have to find out

 

they for sure have a severe reaction to eternal security  - and osas specifically - over the claim by someone that a christian can sin all they want

 

i don't know of any group that says you can sin all you want and still be saved - i think this person has been talking to an atheist pretending to be a calvinist - and they are now convinced that osas / eternal security / perseverance of the saints are synonymous with a license to sin

 

what are the shortcomings of osas? - how does it differ from perseverance of the saints?

 

i have baptist friends that are eternal security but they do not agree with osas and i didn't understand their explanation of the difference between the two

 

 

 

 

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William
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1 minute ago, Truthfrees said:

works righteousness might be a part of it - i'm not sure what they believe on that - i think they believe in the grace of God - i will have to find out

 

they for sure have a severe reaction to eternal security  - and osas specifically - over the claim by someone that a christian can sin all they want

 

i don't know of any group that says you can sin all you want and still be saved - i think this person has been talking to an atheist pretending to be a calvinist - and they are now convinced that osas / eternal security / perseverance of the saints are synonymous with a license to sin

 

what are the shortcomings of osas? - how does it differ from perseverance of the saints?

 

i have baptist friends that are eternal security but they do not agree with osas and i didn't understand their explanation of the difference between the two

 

 

 

 

I edited my above post to be more indepth. I think I may of answered your questions in the edited version.

 

God bless,

William

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Truthfrees
27 minutes ago, William said:

I think that OSAS "implies" that one may sin all they want. If I were forced to pick a camp which believes they can live a sinful lifestyle then I'd choose "liberal theologians". They're the ones promoting the LGBT movement under the label of Christianity, and "reason" away any Scriptures by discrediting the authority of the Scriptures and making them only applicable for a time or culture. According to them one may live the homosexual lifestyle and be assured of salvation. This is quite ironic, because OSAS is actually taught by Baptist which began the "fundamentalism" movement to combat liberal theologians and the post modern movement. However, among the Baptist there are "Reformed Baptist" which are Calvinist. If you read the news today Calvinism is being revived and many "unwitting or theologically ignorant" Baptist suggest that Calvinism is dividing the Baptist denomination. They actually reject the historical theology of the Baptist denomination. A lot of these people (generalization) think that Calvinism is replacing OSAS when in fact OSAS is a watered down doctrine of Calvinism.

 

But giving critics the benefit of the doubt the two things both camps (OSAS and Calvinist) are teaching is "eternal security". Those critics are probably only superficially understanding each doctrine and ignoring doctrinal differences while rejecting the eternal security which both have in common. Many people only see similarities when exhibiting superficial knowledge of a subject matter. For example, all religions are the same.

 

I am willing to bet (liberal theologians aside) that most of these "critics" adhere to works righteousness or performance based salvation. They're rejecting eternal security under the label of OSAS rather than for more indepth theological reasoning found in Perseverance of the saints. As far as critics "misunderstanding" or "mislabeling" I personally believe this is symptomatic of persons which do not have a passion for theology.

 

Any doctrine should be "Apostolic" or taught in the Scriptures. Let the Scriptures as a whole (Systematically) discern which is correct.

ok - excellent - this is easy to understand - osas watered down - perseverance of the saints more in depth - iow watered down leaves it open to misinterpretation and in depth makes it difficult to misinterpret?

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Truthfrees

ok one last question that might be works righteousness or might be something else

 

when a person says christians can lose their salvation based on all the scriptures about falling away / departing the faith / never knew you / never belonged / no sacrifice left / etc do you believe a born again person can lose their faith - or is it really that they never were saved in the first place?

Edited by Truthfrees

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William
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14 hours ago, Truthfrees said:

ok one last question that might be works righteousness or might be something else

 

when a person says christians can lose their salvation based on all the scriptures about falling away / departing the faith / never knew you / never belonged / no sacrifice left / etc do you believe a born again person can lose their faith - or is it really that they never were saved in the first place?

No, a born again or regenerate person is indwelt by God and no one is able to break the union or separate the believer from God. Of course this calls our understanding of regeneration into question as well as justification and sanctification. Let alone questioning our salvation should drive us closer to our Savior through faith as our understanding of "needing" Jesus Christ is increasingly established.

 

When a Christian says that another can lose their salvation what they should be acknowledging is the lack of their ability to determine who the Elect are or to determine another person's eternal destiny. While we may demonstrate assurance of our "own" salvation it is quite healthy to be instilled with a certain amount of fear and trembling when Scripture warns or cautions us of our obligations and duty which places a degree of accountability and responsibility upon us. 

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Truthfrees
9 minutes ago, William said:

No, a born again or regenerate person is indwelt by God and no one is able to separate the union between the believer and God. Of course this calls our understanding of regeneration into question as well as justification and sanctification.

 

When a Christian says that another can lose their salvation what they should be acknowledging is the lack of their ability to determine who the Elect are or another person's eternal destiny. While we may demonstrate assurance of our "own" salvation it is quite healthy to be instilled with a certain amount of fear and trembling when Scripture warns or cautions us of our obligations and duty. 

awesome - thanks - makes sense

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Just Mike

Truthfrees. Let me give my response.. OSAS is true for those who are genuine Followers of Jesus Christ. True Followers are not exempt from sin, as there is no such thing as sinless perfection. (1 John 1:10)  Those who are genuinely Followers of Jesus Christ have the Holy Spirit who convicts us of sin, they have a desire to please God and not sin. When a Follower of Jesus Christ sins God has provided a way for forgiveness (1 John 1:9). a "Saved" person seeks to please the Lord and live a life worthy of the name "Christian". I believe in a life as I describe, and that means "O"nce I have been genuinely "S"aved, that means I will be "A"lways be "S"aved based on my being one of His sheep who knows my Masters voice. He knows me, and I follow Him. He gives me eternal life, so that I might not perish. He is keeping me securely safe in His hand. The Father gave me to Jesus Christ, and the Father is greater than all, and no one can snatch the saved ones out of the Fathers hand. This is how I understand what John 10:27-29. OSAS.

 

Anyone who "thinks" they are a Christian, and live any ol way they want, believing in "OSAS" has made a seriously flawed foolish spiritually deadly mistake. There are people that believe that once they said the sinners prayer and been baptized, that assured then of heaven. This is what some false preachers proclaim and grow large churches. 

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Truthfrees
On 2/11/2019 at 3:41 PM, Just Mike said:

Truthfrees. Let me give my response.. OSAS is true for those who are genuine Followers of Jesus Christ. True Followers are not exempt from sin, as there is no such thing as sinless perfection. (1 John 1:10)  Those who are genuinely Followers of Jesus Christ have the Holy Spirit who convicts us of sin, they have a desire to please God and not sin. When a Follower of Jesus Christ sins God has provided a way for forgiveness (1 John 1:9). a "Saved" person seeks to please the Lord and live a life worthy of the name "Christian". I believe in a life as I describe, and that means "O"nce I have been genuinely "S"aved, that means I will be "A"lways be "S"aved based on my being one of His sheep who knows my Masters voice. He knows me, and I follow Him. He gives me eternal life, so that I might not perish. He is keeping me securely safe in His hand. The Father gave me to Jesus Christ, and the Father is greater than all, and no one can snatch the saved ones out of the Fathers hand. This is how I understand what John 10:27-29. OSAS.

 

Anyone who "thinks" they are a Christian, and live any ol way they want, believing in "OSAS" has made a seriously flawed foolish spiritually deadly mistake. There are people that believe that once they said the sinners prayer and been baptized, that assured then of heaven. This is what some false preachers proclaim and grow large churches. 

that makes sense to me too - i don't study theology - i read scripture - i go through the nt 3x/week - and this is what i see too

 

i don't see how a regenerated person can become unregenerate - and then can such a person become regenerated again - and how many times can a person go back and forth between these 2 states? - new nature  - dead nature - this sounds like silliness to me

 

every person i have ever seen get born again gets a new nature and the word of God helps them understand the new nature and what God wants because the Holy Spirit keeps leading them and guiding them

 

and then if they have some kind of crisis that causes them to be wounded in their faith they withdraw from God for a season until the woundedness of their faith is healed and then they go at it again being led by the Holy Spirit into the good things of God

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Becky
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We are saved by Grace. What do we have that can compare to His Grace ? When/if we believe we are saved by some action we have done how quickly can we become unsaved? What a joy to grasp I am saved by His Grace.  I find my self not living up to the standard i believe i should yet by Grace i am saved, by Grace i am His kid! A child of the King of Kings. Thank You Jesus,.

 

For years living under the shadow of my stupid sins could separate me from my Heavenly Father,. The fear, the raging fear, of coming home from school, mom not there I MISSED RAPTURE o the fear. No child of God should live under that pressure no matter the age. I remember a time of not saying anything definitive for fear of lying . Could i repent in time? Thanks again for Grace.  

 

Folks search the Scriptures to find how to live a life acceptable for salvation.  We look  for how we can be part of our salvation as if God needs our help. When the Scriptures tell us even our faith comes from Him. They tell us we are saved by Grace. 

 

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast. 

 

Reading a post elsewhere stating something about not having a CHANCE for salvation ... A Chance? The Father draws: I doubt He is drawing straws. 

 

Joh 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 

 

Salvation is not by chance  He did not shed His Blood by chance.  Read Genesis it was the plan. 

 

 

 


 

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th1bill
2 hours ago, Becky said:

We are saved by Grace. What do we have that can compare to His Grace ? When/if we believe we are saved by some action we have done how quickly can we become unsaved? What a joy to grasp I am saved by His Grace.  I find my self not living up to the standard i believe i should yet by Grace i am saved, by Grace i am His kid! A child of the King of Kings. Thank You Jesus,.

 

For years living under the shadow of my stupid sins could separate me from my Heavenly Father,. The fear, the raging fear, of coming home from school, mom not there I MISSED RAPTURE o the fear. No child of God should live under that pressure no matter the age. I remember a time of not saying anything definitive for fear of lying . Could i repent in time? Thanks again for Grace.  

 

Folks search the Scriptures to find how to live a life acceptable for salvation.  We look  for how we can be part of our salvation as if God needs our help. When the Scriptures tell us even our faith comes from Him. They tell us we are saved by Grace. 

 

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast. 

 

Reading a post elsewhere stating something about not having a CHANCE for salvation ... A Chance? The Father draws: I doubt He is drawing straws. 

 

Joh 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 

 

Salvation is not by chance  He did not shed His Blood by chance.  Read Genesis it was the plan. 

 

 

 


 

As I posted earlier, on another forum, I earned my place in the Lake of Fire but the unearned Grace of YHWH is the only reason I will reside where I will always have access to the presence of the King of Kings in Heaven.  PRAISE YHWH!

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William
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2 hours ago, Becky said:

Folks search the Scriptures to find how to live a life acceptable for salvation.  We look  for how we can be part of our salvation as if God needs our help. When the Scriptures tell us even our faith comes from Him. They tell us we are saved by Grace. 

Exactly, John 5:39-40; John 6:44; Ephesians 2:8-9.

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John 2

"Eternal security" is about whether you can lose your salvation, particularly by sinning.

 

"Perseverance of the saints," as far as I can tell, is the idea that all of God's elect will hold onto the faith until the end of their lives and never give it up no matter what.  And to clarify further, under "perseverance" no person who has been genuinely saved at all will not persevere, or will ever let go of the faith to the point of no longer being saved.

 

is this not an accurate simplification of the two?

 

 

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Becky
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Welcome  @John 2  🙂

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davidtaylorjr

Romans 8:38-39 

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John 2

By the way, there is another wrinkle one can throw into the mix.  Even if you agree with both eternal security and perseverance, some may want to argue that you can voluntarily forfeit salvation.  However, without building a lengthy case from the Bible right now, biblically and spiritually this does not appear to make sense or be possible.

 

I'd be interested if anyone wishes to confirm that my first comment is accurate, however, especially my essential summary of what "perseverance" is according to Reformed teaching.

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William
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7 hours ago, John 2 said:

I'd be interested if anyone wishes to confirm that my first comment is accurate, however, especially my essential summary of what "perseverance" is according to Reformed teaching.

Welcome to CF, John!

 

For an actual Reformed summary of the Calvinist doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints the best reference is the Westminster Confession of Faith:

 

Definition of Perseverance from the Westminster Confession of Faith:

 

I. They, whom God has accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.[1]

 

II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;[2] upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ,[3] the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them,[4] and the nature of the covenant of grace:[5] from all which arises also the certainty and infallibility thereof.[6]

 

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve his Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]

 

[1] PHI 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. 2PE 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall. JOH 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 1JO 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1PE 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

 

[2] 2TI 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. JER 31:3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

 

[3] HEB 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. HEB 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. ROM 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. JOH 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. LUK 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. HEB 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

 

[4] JOH 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 1JO 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1JO 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[5] JER 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

 

[6] JOH 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 2TH 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 1JO 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[7] MAT 26:70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest. 72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man. 74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.

 

[8] PSA 51 (the title) To the chief muscian, A psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. 51:14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

 

[9] ISA 64:5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved. 7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities. 9 Be not wroth very sore, O Lord, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people. 2SA 11:27 And when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her to his house, and she became his wife, and bare him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the Lord.

 

[10] EPH 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[11] PSA 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. REV 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. SON 5:2 I sleep, but my heart waketh: it is the voice of my beloved that knocketh, saying, Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled: for my head is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the night. 3 I have put off my coat; how shall I put it on? I have washed my feet; how shall I defile them? 4 My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him. 6 I opened to my beloved; but my beloved had withdrawn himself, and was gone: my soul failed when he spake: I sought him, but I could not find him; I called him, but he gave me no answer.

 

[12] ISA 63:17 O Lord, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance. MAR 6:52 For they considered not the miracle of the loaves: for their heart was hardened. 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

 

[13] PSA 32:3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. 4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah. 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

 

[14] 2SA 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

 

[15] PSA 89:31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; 32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. 1CO 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

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John 2

Thanks for that, William.  It's surprising I've never seen that, even more surprising I've never bothered to look it up.  Very surprising in fact. :)

 

Point #1 would appear to correspond with what I suggested.  However, I have to admit I'm genuinely surprised, even slightly "shocked," that terminology like "has accepted" is present there.  Perhaps it is just an archaic use of language like that.  Can't wait to bring that up with some people I know. :)

 

It really seems to be as I have always thought based on the amount of input I have ever received:  i.e., I would suggest that there is really no meaningful difference between "perseverance of the saints" and "eternal security."  I would "tend to contend" that they are really one and the same, at least at the core.

 

The problem arises when and if people attach various wrongful ideas to them, most notably to "eternal security," very blatantly wrongful and unbiblical ideas.  When they do that, they make "eternal security" out to also be what I understand to be known as or at least would myself call "easy believism."  It should be as blatant as the midday sun to anyone, however.  Even to the still unregenerate to a meaningful degree, even if they reject the overall truthfulness of the entire message to begin with.

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