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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
Goth Explorer

Honesty in the world of politics

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3 minutes ago, Becky said:

Asked of us all 

 

Where do we draw the line. 

Is my employer honest?
When my wife says how do i look?

Do i accept gifts from folks i dont like 

Do i use the benefits of  a government i do not support

Are we honest when the cook says How was that? 

Do we break speed laws. 

 

I agree @Origen we all need to search our conscience . Having a discussion about it is proper. 

We should examine ourselves and save others from our hypocrisy.

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5 minutes ago, Chaplain Carter said:

I humbly submit you might want to re-think what you're doing with the truth.

I for one appreciate your honest observation. Not everyone can handle the truth.

 

a few good men you cant handle the truth GIF by SundanceTV

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Play by my rules or i will take my toys and go home. 

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Sad very sad folks can not have a discussion even if it gets a bit heated without walking out. Can we not discuss a difference of opinion? My objection to not voting along with believing Christians should not be involved in politics goes back to the 50s. 

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14 minutes ago, Becky said:

Sad very sad folks can not have a discussion even if it gets a bit heated without walking out. Can we not discuss a difference of opinion? My objection to not voting along with believing Christians should not be involved in politics goes back to the 50s. 

Two things secularist suggest we should never talk about. Politics and religion. Is it any wonder why in these two spheres that Christianity has lost footing? The gates of Hades shall not prevail against the church. The church is supposed to be on the offensive, and I think every stone which people hide under should be overturned. Not one stone should be left standing on another. Not talking about politics has made the church retreat and isolate herself within her own walls, and not talking about religion has stopped her advancements in society.

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4 minutes ago, Becky said:

Sad very sad folks can not have a discussion even if it gets a bit heated without walking out. Can we not discuss a difference of opinion? My objection to not voting along with believing Christians should not be involved in politics goes back to the 50s. 

 

Yes, it is sad and unfortunate that Christians continue to make excuses to not get involved in things such as politics.  This is why I first responded with 1 John 1: 8 and John 8:7, because its all too convenient to point at the sin of others and condemn it without examining *WHY* Christ died for...US.

 

I'm a police chaplain and work with front line law enforcement and those in executive leadership. I've yet to find a perfect cop or perfect administrator. Using Goth's standards, I should stop working with them otherwise I might be 'seen' as supporting someone who *gasp* is a sinner. That's not what God has said in His word and its certainly not what Christ is leading me to do. I don't want to be the servant that takes what he was given and buries it. 

 

We are called to share our beliefs, not to hide them. By disengaging with the world, we allow the message of the cross to be hidden - exactly what the enemy wants. Be it politics, banking, carpentry, brick laying, customer service or preaching the word, our task is to take the light given to us and share it with the world - coming alongside and sharing the good news. 

 

Did Jesus avoid working with that tax-fattened hyena who was working for the Romans? I shudder to think what path I would be following if Christ was afraid of being seen working with and supporting me...

 

In Christ,

 

Chaplain Carter

 

 

 

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While we are having this discussion Origen was correct in noting we each should/could vote, or not, our own conscience. I have no problem speaking my piece hoping to get the other guy, who does not agree with me to change their mind.

But we need to remember we are often the "other guy".  I know i do not have all God has given me exactly where it belongs . I bet some of my talents are buried others squandered . Thankfully He looks on the heart . Praise the Most High for HIs Grace and Mercy 

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11 minutes ago, Becky said:

While we are having this discussion Origen was correct in noting we each should/could vote, or not, our own conscience. I have no problem speaking my piece hoping to get the other guy, who does not agree with me to change their mind.

But we need to remember we are often the "other guy".  I know i do not have all God has given me exactly where it belongs . I bet some of my talents are buried others squandered . Thankfully He looks on the heart . Praise the Most High for HIs Grace and Mercy 

Some thoughts,

 

My initial caution is elevating my own conscience to Godhood. Rather than my conscience responding to Godly conviction it becomes the standard by which to convict others. My conscience is affected by sin and sinful experience, therefore as most of us do, we study the word of God, receiving the word which cuts through our own self-deception as we attempt to reflect more perfectly the will of God. A person's conscience can be altered and changed depending on belief. Change a man's belief and you'll change his conscience. Some people today are greatly convicted by the standard of morality imposed upon them in the area of politics and political correctness.

 

Where the balancing act appears to draw controversy is when we express our conscience and hold others captive to it. I am a liar, I have lied, and often lie to myself. However, should I disqualify others based on their lies and shut the door to Godly repentance? By that standard, king David was the worst politician. Yet by grace king David was one of the best earthly kings who was quick to repent demonstrating a heart after God.

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4 minutes ago, Becky said:

While we are having this discussion Origen was correct in noting we each should/could vote, or not, our own conscience. I have no problem speaking my piece hoping to get the other guy, who does not agree with me to change their mind.

But we need to remember we are often the "other guy".  I know i do not have all God has given me exactly where it belongs . I bet some of my talents are buried others squandered . Thankfully He looks on the heart . Praise the Most High for HIs Grace and Mercy 

True, we must vote with our conscience and we will answer to God for our choices. 

I can't find anything in scripture that ratifies a decision to remove oneself from engaging the world.

On the contrary, scripture is rife with examples of common men and common women trusting God and stepping out in faith against all odds.

 

Pretending that because one simply doesn't vote somehow gives them a pass on who gets elected is the same as being in an army, never engaging the enemy and when the enemy wins we're somehow absolved of any and all responsibility because we objected to the fight in the first place...

 

By not engaging, you have opted to side with the enemy.

 

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I agree.

Beings i am 72  a preachers kid. i can remember some of the church backing away from politics. Mom saw no reason for dad to be on the school board. He should not have listened to her. I see the USA in the ugly state it is largely because Christians just knew rapture was just around the corner because of Israel so they reclined on their thoughts and gave the USA over to evil. 

 

Thank you for serving the Cops there are so deep in the middle. 🙂

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18 minutes ago, Chaplain Carter said:

I can't find anything in scripture that ratifies a decision to remove oneself from engaging the world.

Who said anything about removing oneself from engaging the world?

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4 minutes ago, Origen said:

Who said anything about removing oneself from engaging the world?

Perhaps the answer lies within the question, how is refusing to vote for anyone considered engaging the world?

 

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20 minutes ago, Chaplain Carter said:

Perhaps the answer lies within the question, how is refusing to vote for anyone considered engaging the world?

 

The answer lies in reading what @Goth Explorer actually said and not by attributing motives to people we do not know.

 

20 minutes ago, Chaplain Carter said:

how is refusing to vote for anyone considered engaging the world?

Goth said in post 3:

 

"I did not vote in either of the last two parliamentary general elections in this country.  I did vote in the most recent council elections, but only for two independent candidates."

 

(1) He never said he was removing himself from engaging the world.

 

(2) He said he did not vote in the last two parliamentary general elections.

 

(3) He said he did vote in the most recent council elections.

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7 hours ago, Goth Explorer said:

By we I mean the people of the United Kingdom as a whole, although I accept that similar situations exist in other countries.

 

By we I suppose I exempt anyone who does not vote, which includes myself.  I did not vote in either of the last two parliamentary general elections in this country.  I did vote in the most recent council elections, but only for two independent candidates.

 

I would be pleased if even just one political party committed itself to the cause of honesty in politics, but sadly I have yet to find one which has that ambition.

 

As a Christian I feel that I should not encourage dishonesty, and that is one reason why I tend not to vote.

Goth, I confess I know little about politics in the UK, but I can express my thinking about politics in the USA.

 

I feel the very least a citizen owes its country is to vote. Many have served in one of the five Service. Many men and women paid the ultimate price for our continued freedom. On both sides of the Atlantic many take for granted the freedom they have.

 

I dislike dishonest politicians, and those who make a career of staying long enough to reach a very large retirement fund. Here we have Democrats that support immoral lifestyles, murdering babies, and socialism, IMO this will eventually destroy our country. If no one takes seriously their duty to vote, the Democrats will destroy our country. Certainly there are similar conditions in the UK. You have the right not to vote, but in doing so you have no right to complain about those dishonest politicians. Think carefully how avoiding to vote you are in reality supporting the party you dislike the most. 

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24 minutes ago, Origen said:

The answer lies in reading what @Goth Explorer actually said and not by attributing motives to people we do not know.

 

Goth said in post 3:

 

"I did not vote in either of the last two parliamentary general elections in this country.  I did vote in the most recent council elections, but only for two independent candidates."

 

(1) He never said he was removing himself from engaging the world.

 

(2) He said he did not vote in the last two parliamentary general elections.

 

(3) He said he did vote in the most recent council elections.

Goth's actions and what he says are summed up here:

 

2 hours ago, Goth Explorer said:

I do not need this site.  Carry on voting for liars you morons, and hope and pray that their lies do not harm you.

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10 minutes ago, William said:

Goth's actions and what he says are summed up in this very statement

If someone attributed false motives to me and claimed I believed something I did not I might act the same way myself.

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1 minute ago, Origen said:

If someone was to attribute false motives to me and claim I believed something I did not I might act the same way myself.

His very actions and statements from what I gleaned brought to question his motives and/or belief. Before that escalated, which it did nicely, I asked should C.C. apologize or should he turn the cheek?

2 hours ago, Goth Explorer said:

I refrain from voting not because politicians might lie, but because they almost certainly will.  I have already said that I will consider voting for a political party which supports honesty.  For example, I would like MPs to be legally bound never to tell lies, and to lose their seats in parliament if they do tell lies.  Does any party support that?

 

Correct me if wrong, but isn't this why there is a long standing tradition of the U.S. to take an oath and be swore into office using the Bible?

 

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35 minutes ago, William said:

His very actions and statements from what I gleaned brought to question his motives and/or belief. Before that escalated, which it did nicely, I asked should C.C. apologize or should he turn the cheek?

 

Correct me if wrong, but isn't this why there is a long standing tradition of the U.S. to take an oath and be swore into office using the Bible?

There is no point in discussing it any longer.  It can only lead to hard feelings.  Best just to let the matter go.

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16 minutes ago, Origen said:

If someone attributed false motives to me and claimed I believed something I did not I might act the same way myself.

Declaring attribution of false motives states by inference that you know the true motives - do share.

 

G.E. Stated, "By we I suppose I exempt anyone who does not vote, which includes myself.  I did not vote in either of the last two parliamentary general elections in this country.  I did vote in the most recent council elections, but only for two independent candidates."

 

This is the sentiment I was addressing. By not voting, he / we / they / all of us allow evil to triumph. 

"...I exempt anyone who does not vote." 

 

Again, I addressed this as well, as in this situation, I can find no basis in scripture for not engaging. No where did I accuse or attribute definite motives - if you are feeling similarly convicted, be of good cheer because the Holy Spirit works within us to reprove, correct and rebuke. This is what scripture is for and applies directly to each of us.

 

I will not apologize for addressing poor behavior, or what appears to be a clear case of a Christian refusing to vote because he or she has apparently decided one or both parties are evil. 

 

Please try addressing the content.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Chaplain Carter said:

Declaring attribution of false motives states by inference that you know the true motives - do share.

 

G.E. Stated, "By we I suppose I exempt anyone who does not vote, which includes myself.  I did not vote in either of the last two parliamentary general elections in this country.  I did vote in the most recent council elections, but only for two independent candidates."

 

This is the sentiment I was addressing. By not voting, he / we / they / all of us allow evil to triumph. 

"...I exempt anyone who does not vote." 

 

Again, I addressed this as well, as in this situation, I can find no basis in scripture for not engaging. No where did I accuse or attribute definite motives - if you are feeling similarly convicted, be of good cheer because the Holy Spirit works within us to reprove, correct and rebuke. This is what scripture is for and applies directly to each of us.

 

I will not apologize for addressing poor behavior, or what appears to be a clear case of a Christian refusing to vote because he or she has apparently decided one or both parties are evil. 


Please try addressing the content.

The conversation is over.  Time to move on.

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