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Goth Explorer

Honesty in the world of politics

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Goth Explorer

A solicitor called Adam Kemeny has been struck off from practising as a lawyer after admitting evading train tickets to the value of hundreds of pounds.

 

A rich financier called Jonathan Burrows is also unlikely ever to work in finance again, after being caught evading thousands of pounds worth of train fares.

 

And yet we allow the most brazen of liars to occupy even the highest of political offices.

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Chaplain Carter

Who is "we" in the sentence, "And yet we allow the most brazen of liars to occupy even the highest of political offices" ?

 

Now consider your answer in light of scripture, specifically: 1 John 1: 8 and John 8:7

 

 

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Goth Explorer
14 hours ago, Chaplain Carter said:

Who is "we" in the sentence, "And yet we allow the most brazen of liars to occupy even the highest of political offices" ?

 

Now consider your answer in light of scripture, specifically: 1 John 1: 8 and John 8:7

 

 

By we I mean the people of the United Kingdom as a whole, although I accept that similar situations exist in other countries.

 

By we I suppose I exempt anyone who does not vote, which includes myself.  I did not vote in either of the last two parliamentary general elections in this country.  I did vote in the most recent council elections, but only for two independent candidates.

 

I would be pleased if even just one political party committed itself to the cause of honesty in politics, but sadly I have yet to find one which has that ambition.

 

As a Christian I feel that I should not encourage dishonesty, and that is one reason why I tend not to vote.

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Becky
Moderator

I figure like this .. Nothing happens by chance. God placed me in the USA there for i must be the best citizen i can be. Being a good citizen does not always mean agreeing with the status quo.  As for the lessor of 2 evils, we have the story of Jacob and Esau . Jacob was the lessor evil.

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theophilus
2 hours ago, Goth Explorer said:

By we I suppose I exempt anyone who does not vote, which includes myself.  I did not vote in either of the last two parliamentary general elections in this country.

By not voting aren't you failing to take action against dishonesty?  There are sins of omission as well as sins of commission.

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Goth Explorer
2 hours ago, theophilus said:

By not voting aren't you failing to take action against dishonesty?  There are sins of omission as well as sins of commission.

In what sense?  I will consider voting for a political party which is committed to promoting honesty, but which party is that?

 

As for Becky's point about the lesser of two evils, that is akin to surrender.  The Democrats and the Republicans will thrive in the USA as long as people will vote for the lesser evil.  The Tories and Labour will thrive in the UK as long as people vote for the lesser evil.  Justice will triumph when we stop voting for liars.

 

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William
Staff
3 minutes ago, Goth Explorer said:

In what sense?  I will consider voting for a political party which is committed to promoting honesty, but which party is that?

 

As for Becky's point about the lesser of two evils, that is akin to surrender.  The Democrats and the Republicans will thrive in the USA as long as people will vote for the lesser evil.  The Tories and Labour will thrive in the UK as long as people vote for the lesser evil.  Justice will triumph when we stop voting for liars.

 

I imagine it can be quite confusing listening to members of a board based in America. From what I understand "liberals" and "conservatives" do not stand for the same platform as here over there?

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Goth Explorer
3 minutes ago, William said:

I imagine it can be quite confusing listening to members of a board based in America. From what I understand the "left" and "right" or "liberals" and "conservatives" do not stand for the same platform over there?

It is hardly a question of left or right.  It is a question of honesty versus evil.  Why should we let evil triumph?

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Becky
Moderator

Deciding to not decide is a decision .

 

As far as ANY government official .

 

Rom 13:1  Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 
 

1 minute ago, Goth Explorer said:

It is hardly a question of left or right.  It is a question of honesty versus evil.  Why should we let evil triumph?

What did  your lack of a vote do to promote honesty? 

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Goth Explorer
2 minutes ago, Becky said:

What did  your lack of a vote do to promote honesty? 

It did not give a mandate to dishonesty.

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William
Staff
6 minutes ago, Goth Explorer said:

It is hardly a question of left or right.  It is a question of honesty versus evil.  Why should we let evil triumph?

The party platforms in America appeal to two different standards. For example, genuine Constitutional Republicans uphold the Constitution which acknowledges certain unalienable rights of the People "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". No big deal, right? A democrat governor in America this last week has advocated post birth abortion. Now from what I have read post birth abortion has already been advocated in the Netherlands for near now a decade. This is a clear violation of the Constitution because anyway that a person cuts it a born baby is a person and is protected under the founding documents.

 

 

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Goth Explorer
1 minute ago, William said:

The party platforms in America appeal to two different standards. For example, genuine Constitutional Republicans uphold the Constitution which acknowledges certain unalienable rights of the People "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". No big deal, right? A democrat governor in America this last week has advocated post birth abortion. Now from what I have read post birth abortion has already been advocated for in the Netherlands for near now a decade. This is a clear violation of the Constitution because anyway that a person cuts it a born baby is a person and is protected under the founding documents.

 

 

Politics in the USA is dominated by two political parties, which both tolerate abortion.

 

Politics in the UK is dominated by two political parties, which both tolerate abortion.  They are also both committed to dishonesty, and do not get my vote.

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William
Staff
7 minutes ago, Goth Explorer said:

Politics in the USA is dominated by two political parties, which both tolerate abortion. 

 

Politics in the UK is dominated by two political parties, which both tolerate abortion.  They are also both committed to dishonesty, and do not get my vote.

It's a little easier here in America. Only one party platform here applies Constitutional rights to every citizen and advocates to extend those rights to the unborn. However, citizens are not voting politicians into office which align with the party platform. Therefore, we have RINOs or Republicans in Name Only on the right. We see them even in Christianity. For example, people profess Christianity and advocate abortion.

 

I really wouldn't know how to advocate "completely honesty" unless anti-heresy laws were brought back. And then there would be a power struggle for the standard of truth by various parties. To what extent does a theonomy unfold? We've separated from abusive powers in America's history and made way here to escape these very abuses. Exodus 18:21 in my voter play book is non negotiable.

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Becky
Moderator
13 minutes ago, Goth Explorer said:
17 minutes ago, Becky said:

What did  your lack of a vote do to promote honesty? 

It did not give a mandate to dishonesty.

so the folks in office now are honest? 

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Chaplain Carter

Goth Explorer - I understand and appreciate the sentiments toward dishonesty in any political party. As a Christian I despise it, yet I know we live in a fallen world.

I know that when I cast a vote for someone, I cast it as educated as I can be - I cast it to attempt to get the people who more closely aligned with scriptural tenets into office.

 

I trust and believe in the word of God - all others fall short. When I cast a vote for someone, it is both my hope and expectation they will uphold the oath of office and their pre-election promises.

 

Standing idly on the sidelines, pretending to be an impartial observer and "not getting involved" because they might lie, they might be dishonest or they might double-cross the voters is disingenuous. They are accountable to both the voters and to God. You have a duty called by Christ to be ACTIVE in your faith and not passive, dismissing your participation by fiat simply because you don't trust any of them.

 

Scripture hasn't called us to judge the world - something you appear to be dangerously close to doing - and by *not* voting, you have in fact allowed the enemy to vote on your behalf. 

 

There will never be a perfect government until Christ returns. Until then, I humbly suggest getting off your hands and asking God to help you decide which candidate / party to vote for and even though you know they wont be perfect, vote for those who are *closer* to keeping with Godly character and tenets. Voting is only part of the task - you must watch how they perform, and give them encouragement and pray for them as they execute the duties of their office. If and when they fail to uphold their sworn duty, then hold them accountable.

 

Otherwise, all that you are saying is that the light Christ has given you is for your own personal use and nobody else...and that, my friend, isn't Christ-like.

 

Warm regards,

 

Chaplain Carter

 

 

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Goth Explorer
1 minute ago, William said:

It's a little easier here in America. Only one party platform here applies Constitutional rights to every citizen and advocates to extend those rights to the unborn. However, citizens are not voting politicians into office which align with the party platform. Therefore, we have RINOs or Republicans in Name Only on the right. We see them even in Christianity. For example, people profess Christianity and advocate abortion.

 

I really wouldn't know how to advocate "completely honest" unless anti-heresy laws were brought back. And then there would be a power struggle for the standard of truth by various parties. Exodus 18:21 in my voter play book is non negotiable. 

Exodus 18:21 is an excellent text.  It tells me why I should not vote for dishonest politicians.

1 minute ago, Becky said:

so the folks in office now are honest? 

No, but at least I can truthfully say that I did not put them in office.

 

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Origen
Moderator

@Goth Explorer has to follow his conscience not yours.  I agree with GE.  No one has to vote for the lesser of two evils.  We can choose to not vote for evil of any kind.

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Chaplain Carter
1 minute ago, Goth Explorer said:

Exodus 18:21 is an excellent text.  It tells me why I should not vote for dishonest politicians.

No, but at least I can truthfully say that I did not put them in office.

 

But you did. By not voting, by not getting involved, by pretending to be "helping out" by not participating you have only guaranteed one less vote for someone who would be a better representative.

Your stance reminds me of the parable of the talents found in Matthew 25:14-30.  

Your master (I assume, Christ?) has given you a treasure - the truth, and the ability to do things with it - and what are you doing with it? Burying it?

 

 

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William
Staff
1 minute ago, Goth Explorer said:

No, but at least I can truthfully say that I did not put them in office. 

Sin is not only our action but sometimes we are held accountable for our inaction or things we ought to have done.

 

If you read Exodus 18:21 the verse says "to look for able men". Disqualifying every man for depravity or a sin nature goes beyond what is being stated.

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Goth Explorer
2 minutes ago, Chaplain Carter said:

Goth Explorer - I understand and appreciate the sentiments toward dishonesty in any political party. As a Christian I despise it, yet I know we live in a fallen world.

I know that when I cast a vote for someone, I cast it as educated as I can be - I cast it to attempt to get the people who more closely aligned with scriptural tenets into office.

 

I trust and believe in the word of God - all others fall short. When I cast a vote for someone, it is both my hope and expectation they will uphold the oath of office and their pre-election promises.

 

Standing idly on the sidelines, pretending to be an impartial observer and "not getting involved" because they might lie, they might be dishonest or they might double-cross the voters is disingenuous. They are accountable to both the voters and to God. You have a duty called by Christ to be ACTIVE in your faith and not passive, dismissing your participation by fiat simply because you don't trust any of them.

 

Scripture hasn't called us to judge the world - something you appear to be dangerously close to doing - and by *not* voting, you have in fact allowed the enemy to vote on your behalf. 

 

There will never be a perfect government until Christ returns. Until then, I humbly suggest getting off your hands and asking God to help you decide which candidate / party to vote for and even though you know they wont be perfect, vote for those who are *closer* to keeping with Godly character and tenets. Voting is only part of the task - you must watch how they perform, and give them encouragement and pray for them as they execute the duties of their office. If and when they fail to uphold their sworn duty, then hold them accountable.

 

Otherwise, all that you are saying is that the light Christ has given you is for your own personal use and nobody else...and that, my friend, isn't Christ-like.

 

Warm regards,

 

Chaplain Carter

 

 

To be honest, I find that extremely offensive.

 

I refrain from voting not because politicians might lie, but because they almost certainly will.  I have already said that I will consider voting for a political party which supports honesty.  For example, I would like MPs to be legally bound never to tell lies, and to lose their seats in parliament if they do tell lies.  Does any party support that?

 

While you vote for whichever lying scumbag is closer to Godly tenets, people suffer, and will continue to do so.

 

I am close to quitting this site, and I urge you to consider an unreserved apology.

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William
Staff
5 minutes ago, Goth Explorer said:

To be honest, I find that extremely offensive. I am close to quitting this site, and I urge you to consider an unreserved apology.

Nobody here, I'm sure is capable of living up to the standard you're imposing on them.

 

Not in politics or in Christianity.

 

Should C.C. apologize or should you turn the cheek? Let's not escalate the situation.

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Goth Explorer
2 minutes ago, William said:

Nobody here, I'm sure is capable of living up to the standard you're imposing on them.

 

Not in politics or in Christianity.

 

Should C.C. apologize or should you turn the cheek?

I do not expect to be able to vote for people who uphold every scriptural command, but surely it is not too much to argue that politicians should refrain from telling lies.

 

I do not need this site.  Carry on voting for liars you morons, and hope and pray that their lies do not harm you.

 

Can I terminate my site membership?  If so I will.

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William
Staff
Just now, Goth Explorer said:

I do not expect to be able to vote for people who uphold every scriptural command, but surely it is not too much to argue that politicians should refrain from telling lies.

 

I do not need this site.  Carry on voting for liars you morons, and hope and pray that their lies do not harm you.

 

Can I terminate my site membership?  If so I will.

Have you ever told a lie in your life time? Have you ever lied to not only another but yourself? What do we call a person that lies?

 

What action would a God fearing man do? Never tell a lie or repent from a lie if he does?

 

You can click the X top right of your browser and leave the site and never come back.

 

Or I can take care of it so that you may never use your account again should you be tempted.

 

You decide which is the best course of action or non action.

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Becky
Moderator

Asked of us all 

 

Where do we draw the line. 

Is my employer honest?
When my wife says how do i look?

Do i accept gifts from folks i dont like 

Do i use the benefits of  a government i do not support

Are we honest when the cook says How was that? 

Do we break speed laws. 

 

I agree @Origen we all need to search our conscience . Having a discussion about it is proper. 

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Chaplain Carter
1 minute ago, Goth Explorer said:

To be honest, I find that extremely offensive.

 

I refrain from voting not because politicians might lie, but because they almost certainly will.  I have already said that I will consider voting for a political party which supports honesty.  For example, I would like MPs to be legally bound never to tell lies, and to lose their seats in parliament if they do tell lies.  Does any party support that?

 

While you vote for whichever lying scumbag is closer to Godly tenets, people suffer, and will continue to do so.

 

I am close to quitting this site, and I urge you to consider an unreserved apology.

 

Goth - quitting appears to be your stance in everything here, just based on what I see. You have quit trying to improve the political landscape because you have judged it to be a cesspool of lies and corruption. None of us here are disagreeing that there are dishonest politicians, but you've failed the system by not trying... by divorcing yourself from the entire process, you have let evil triumph. (Insert the words of Sir Edmund Burke here.)

 

You've failed to heed the words of Christ himself - you are ready to pick up stones and stone them, yet failing to see your own corruption in the process. If you are a child of the living God, you have a duty to exercise your God supplied ability to pray for and become active in supporting the leadership that God himself has ordained. 

 

You are merely pointing out that all men are fallen. Ok, so what do we do about that? Quit, run and hide and pretend you're more righteous by not supporting *anyone* ?

People suffer and will continue to do so when Christians refuse to take up their crosses and engage the problems of our society. That seems to be your answer. It's a self-righteous cop-out. It is this "I'm too good to help them" attitude that accomplishes nothing, is not helpful, is not loving and comes from a twisted kind of viewpoint that elevates self and calls Christ a liar and denies that the power of the Cross can change the hearts of man.

 

Christ died on our behalf because...what? We were perfect? We were honest? Nope, he died because we sin and continue to sin.

He didn't quit, He went willingly to the cross.

 

I humbly submit you might want to re-think what you're doing with the truth.

 

 

 

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