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kunoichi9280

Falling away?

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What does the Bible teach about falling away from the faith?  Can it happen?  If you do, were you never really saved in the first place?  And if that's the case, how can you know you're saved now? 

 

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1 hour ago, kunoichi9280 said:

What does the Bible teach about falling away from the faith?  Can it happen?  If you do, were you never really saved in the first place?  And if that's the case, how can you know you're saved now? 

 

Yes, and No.

 

A lot of people refer to the OT and rightly recognize that the Holy Spirit could come upon a person to fulfill certain offices such as king etc and then depart. Likewise, in Hebrews 6 one can be part of the New Covenant and taste the fruits of the Holy Spirit and then later fall away. They themselves were never regenerated or exhibited saving faith but nonetheless like the OT not all Israel is Israel.

 

As for salvation, the Ordo Salutis has always been the same from the OT to NT. If a person is saved they'll persevere to the end in faith while under God's sovereignty towards salvation in the "preservation" of the saints. I'm going to stop there rather than post a lengthy comment and leave it up for others to answer your question and engage in discussion.

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1 hour ago, kunoichi9280 said:

What does the Bible teach about falling away from the faith?  Can it happen?  If you do, were you never really saved in the first place?  And if that's the case, how can you know you're saved now? 

 

  In terms of the last question I agree there is at least some tension that exists.

 

 Peter fell away (Matthew 26:33). Christ prayed for him so his faith did not utterly fail (Luke 22:32). Christ intercedes for believes today (Romans 8:34). If you are faithless, He remains faithful (2 Timothy 2:13).

 

 Those in 1 Timothy 4:1 did not have the root (Luke 8:13) - that being Christ to begin with (Romans 15:12).

 

 To those who depart and never return I think of 1 John 2:19. Therefore, the believer is to continually examine themselves to see whether they are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5) - take heed lest ye fall!(1 Corinthians 10:12)

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Faber said:

  In terms of the last question I agree there is at least some tension that exists.

 

 Peter fell away (Matthew 26:33). Christ prayed for him so his faith did not utterly fail (Luke 22:32). Christ intercedes for believes today (Romans 8:34). If you are faithless, He remains faithful (2 Timothy 2:13).

 

 Those in 1 Timothy 4:1 did not have the root (Luke 8:13) - that being Christ to begin with (Romans 15:12).

 

 To those who depart and never return I think of 1 John 2:19. Therefore, the believer is to continually examine themselves to see whether they are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5) - take heed lest ye fall!(1 Corinthians 10:12)

 

 

 

 

So those who fall away and return would be ones who were truly saved? 

Also, if you have to continually examine yourself, does that mean that no real assurance of salvation exists?  I realize what you're saying (I think) that the idea that you can believe and repent and then just go on your way doing whatever is wrong.  

I guess I'm just thinking if someone is a Christian, then falls away, but comes back, were they never really a Christian in the first place, or did they come back because they truly were a Christian?  And had they died in the time they were away, would they have gone to hell?  Maybe I'm overcomplicating it. 🙂

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45 minutes ago, kunoichi9280 said:

  Maybe I'm overcomplicating it. 🙂

Tis the nature of forums :classic_laugh:

 

Welcome to Christforums @kunoichi9280

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11 hours ago, kunoichi9280 said:

What does the Bible teach about falling away from the faith?  Can it happen?  If you do, were you never really saved in the first place?  And if that's the case, how can you know you're saved now? 

 

The Bible teaches about falling away from faith from start to finish. It never goes well for those who forsake God. The nation of Israel found this out when their unfaithfulness to God went unabated despite many warnings from his prophets and as a consequence He gave them over to their enemies for 70 years of captivity in a foreign land. Being a Christian involves yielding to God's will and focussing on Him who is the author and finisher of our faith, namely our Lord and Saviour Jesus christ. (Hebrews 12:2) The New Testament Scriptures are full of exhortations to maintain godly associations and good works along with a  lifestyle of communication with God through prayer and Bible study. These on their own don't earn salvation which is by grace through faith, but they are evidence of abiding in Christ with a true heart in which Christ abides, and Christ is faithful to keep His promises to those who abide in Him, as per these verses...

Heb 10:19-39
(19)  Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
(20)  By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
(21)  And having an high priest over the house of God;
(22)  Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
(23)  Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
(24)  And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
(25)  Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as you see the day approaching.
(26)  For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,
(27)  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
(28)  He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
(29)  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(30)  For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs unto me, I will recompense, says the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
(31)  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
(32)  But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great fight of afflictions;
(33)  Partly, whilst you were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst you became companions of them that were so used.
(34)  For you had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that you have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
(35)  Cast not away therefore your confidence, which has great recompence of reward.
(36)  For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise.
(37)  For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
(38)  Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
(39)  But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
 

Edited by Placable37
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7 hours ago, kunoichi9280 said:

Also, if you have to continually examine yourself, does that mean that no real assurance of salvation exists?. 🙂

Hi K,

 I think it proves that assurance of salvation does exist. If one went on everyday with a flippant attitude about it and said "Whatever" or "I'm not gong to concern myself with that" even though it is commanded that would be far more concerning.

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7 minutes ago, Faber said:

Hi K,

 I think it proves that assurance of salvation does exist. If one went on everyday with a flippant attitude about it and said "Whatever" or "I'm not gong to concern myself with that" even though it is commanded that would be far more concerning.

True. Ipso facto, (by the fact itself) of examining ourselves to see whether we are in the faith (that which comes by hearing, and hearing which comes by the Word of God), and testing ourselves with regard to whether Christ is in us or not, we can have the assurance of faith ( as per Hebrews 10:22), but if we fail the test and are found not to be in the faith how can God's saving grace be conveyed to us? 

2Co 13:5
(5)  Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
 

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33 minutes ago, Faber said:

Hi K,

 I think it proves that assurance of salvation does exist. If one went on everyday with a flippant attitude about it and said "Whatever" or "I'm not gong to concern myself with that" even though it is commanded that would be far more concerning.

So, to put it in casual terms, the fact that we care enough about our salvation to examine ourselves means we have it.  You don't care about something that's not there.  Kind of like the answer we were given when we were young and worried we blasphemed the Holy Spirit.  I was told if we were worried about doing it that it was proof we hadn't done it.  Am I getting what you're going for?

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Besides faith in Christ and His atoning work on our behalf, I draw assurance that I am saved from the transformation I went through as reflected here...

 

2 Corinthians 5:17 NKJV
[17] Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

 

and here

 

Ephesians 2:1-3 NKJV
[1] And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, [2] in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, [3] among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

 

 

Coupled with...

 

Romans 5:10 NKJV
[10] For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

 

 

Philippians 1:6 NKJV
[6] being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

 

 

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