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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
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Poll Question: The Rich man and Lazarus Parable or Not?

Poll Question: The Rich man and Lazarus  

30 members have voted

  1. 1. Is the the Rich man and Lazarus a parable?



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Matthew A.Duvall
1 hour ago, William said:

There allegedly was a government surveillance software or system in placed which could capture various data about a person. Things such as voice patterns, of speech, how they wrote, behavior etc  could searched throughout cell phone networks and the internet to identify a person. The analytical results were given in probability. 

 

Wouldn't mind Hebrews as well as other books of the Bible being run into such program as this:

 

EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG

 

WWW.GLOBALRESEARCH.CA

Before PRISM there was ECHELON: the top secret surveillance program whose "dictionaries" (computers powered by complex algorithms) ingest...

 

 

On ‎4‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 10:07 AM, Origen said:

It sets up a false dichotomy.

Hummmm ! :classic_unsure:

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Matthew A.Duvall
On ‎9‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 7:11 PM, islandrazor said:

If hell is truly as it is pictured in this story, then the saved will be able to view the lost who are burning there. Could anyone enjoy eternal existence if they were able to see lost friends, family, and acquaintances being incinerated in hell, yet never burning up?

 

Christ says that first, Lazarus dies and is taken to the bosom of Abraham. Strongs: G2859 bosom, creek. the front of the body between the arms the bosom of a garment, i.e. the hollow formed by the upper forepart of a rather loose garment bound by a girdle or sash, used for keeping and carrying things (the fold or pocket) A bay of the sea.

Usage;

Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. G2859 For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Acts, 27:39 And when it was day, they knew not the land: but they discovered a certain creek G2859 with a shore, into the which they were minded, if it were possible, to thrust in the ship.

 

If this story is literal, then we have a contradiction in the Bible. Here, Lazarus is shown to have immediately received the promise of eternal life. Yet the author of Hebrews clearly tells us that Abraham, as well as all the other Old Testament saints, have not yet received the promises given to them by God.

HEBREWS 11:13 All these, Abraham, Noah, Abel, etc. died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth … 39 And all these including Abraham, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,

40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

They saw the promises when they lived, They had not received them at the time of Pauls writing of Hebrews.

When Christ returns, the dead in Christ shall rise.

 

In Christ

We are talking of two entirely different places here . The rich man died and went to Hades. A place for temporal punishment . Lazarus died and went to Abraham's bosom . The two were essentially located where the rich man could see and converse with both Lazarus and Abraham. The dividing point was a Great Gulf Fixed that prevented any occupants of Hades from entering into Abraham's bosom. And of course we are familiar with the conversation between the rich man and Abraham when the rich man sought the favor of Abraham to send Lazarus to his five brothers to inform them of the torments of Hades. An impossible mission because we are told that "They had Moses and the prophets and if they didn't believe them then how could they believe one that returned from the dead ? " Abraham's bosom was vacated when the redemptive work of Christ was finished and "Corruption put on incorruption." !st.Cor.15:42 ff..  Hades still exist to this day and will be that way  until the Great Day of God Almighty when all occupants that are there in their sins will be resurrected to stand in The Judgment. Upon being judged they will be casted into the eternal   abode of everlasting Hell.

Hebrews 11:13 ff. speaks for itself. " These all died in faith ,not having received the promises , but having seen them afar off were assured of them ,embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth...……..  I don't see a problem with this .We "could" ask the question, 'where are these people now ?'

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theophilus
On 10/3/2019 at 6:26 PM, Matthew A.Duvall said:

Lazarus died and went to Abraham's bosom

This simply means that he went to where Abraham was.  The ESV translation of Luke 16:22,23 says, "The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side."  The fact that they could talk to the rich man shows that they were in Hades just as he was, although they were in a different part.  The Old Testament speaks of Sheol as the place where both the righteous and the unrighteous go at death.  In the New Testament this place is called Hades.  The death of Jesus opened the way for the righteous to go to Heaven, or Paradise, when they die.

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William
Staff
2 minutes ago, theophilus said:

Heaven, or Paradise

Which is it. Are they are the same place?

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theophilus
6 minutes ago, William said:

Which is it. Are they are the same place?

2 Corinthians 12:2,3 says, " I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.  And I know that this man was caught up into paradise."  Either they are the same place or paradise is located in Heaven.

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William
Staff
4 minutes ago, theophilus said:

2 Corinthians 12:2,3 says, " I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.  And I know that this man was caught up into paradise."  Either they are the same place or paradise is located in Heaven.

Is that where all unbelieving Jews are now which have died until this day in unbelief? 

 

I'm blending two responses of yours made in two threads [polling].

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theophilus
3 minutes ago, William said:

Is that where all unbelieving Jews are now which have died until this day in unbelief?

All who have died in unbelief, whether Jew or gentile, are now in Hades.  They will remain there until the final judgment when they will be thrown into the lake of fire.

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William
Staff
Just now, theophilus said:

All who have died in unbelief, whether Jew or gentile, are now in Hades.  They will remain there until the final judgment when they will be thrown into the lake of fire.

So there's no clause or secondary plan for unbelieving Jews which have died in unbelief? 

 

How are you not contradicting your own theology?

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theophilus
8 minutes ago, William said:

So there's no clause or secondary plan for unbelieving Jews which have died in unbelief? 

 

How are you not contradicting your own theology?

The way of salvation is the same for everyone.  I don't see that this contradicts anything I have said.

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William
Staff
44 minutes ago, theophilus said:

The way of salvation is the same for everyone.  I don't see that this contradicts anything I have said.

You don't see a contradiction in pointing out that Abraham's children are saved by blood descent [you state that God has a plan] and that unbelievers by blood descent are going to hell? Every unbelieving Jew according to what you stated is in Hell awaiting final judgment. 

 

Is that God's plan for the unbelieving Jewish people? 

 

Look, brother, the only difference between those modern adherents of Judaism and Islam is one is more friendly than the other. 

 

To teach that Jesus' mother was either raped or committed fornication as well as Jesus not being the Messiah deserves our allegiance? Sounds more like Muhammad to me. 

 

You know, Martin Luther wrote a book called "The Jews and their Lies". Granted Luther recanted some material but I empathize with his frustrations. Christians which should be evangelizing are instead sending people to pledge a misplaced political loyalty for a religious loyalty to the enemies of our faith. 

Dispensationalism is a transport that leads to this wrong reasoning behind the misplaced loyalty. 

 

Granted, Jews ushered both Jews and Gentiles into the church as well as Jews being among the first to migrate into and establish the church. To reject the church as the faithful remnant known as Israel flies in the face of who they were, are, and more to come as well as what they taught. The church encompasses the state of Israel only consisting of the faithful remnant both Jew and Gentile which identify as neither but "IN CHRIST".  There is only one body! And that is the church of Christ [true Israel].

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Antus67
On 10/3/2019 at 5:26 PM, Matthew A.Duvall said:

We are talking of two entirely different places here . The rich man died and went to Hades. A place for temporal punishment . Lazarus died and went to Abraham's bosom . The two were essentially located where the rich man could see and converse with both Lazarus and Abraham. The dividing point was a Great Gulf Fixed that prevented any occupants of Hades from entering into Abraham's bosom. And of course we are familiar with the conversation between the rich man and Abraham when the rich man sought the favor of Abraham to send Lazarus to his five brothers to inform them of the torments of Hades. An impossible mission because we are told that "They had Moses and the prophets and if they didn't believe them then how could they believe one that returned from the dead ? " Abraham's bosom was vacated when the redemptive work of Christ was finished and "Corruption put on incorruption." !st.Cor.15:42 ff..  Hades still exist to this day and will be that way  until the Great Day of God Almighty when all occupants that are there in their sins will be resurrected to stand in The Judgment. Upon being judged they will be casted into the eternal   abode of everlasting Hell.

Hebrews 11:13 ff. speaks for itself. " These all died in faith ,not having received the promises , but having seen them afar off were assured of them ,embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth...……..  I don't see a problem with this .We "could" ask the question, 'where are these people now ?'

On 10/3/2019 at 5:26 PM, Matthew A.Duvall said:

Hebrews 11:13 ff. speaks for itself. " These all died in faith ,not having received the promises , but having seen them afar off were assured of them ,embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth...……..  I don't see a problem with this .We "could" ask the question, 'where are these people now ?'

For the a moment let me play the devils advocate here is what the Catholic Church believes in.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

 

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), purgatory is a “final purification” (CCC 1031) which is afforded to “all who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified” so that they might “achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven”

 

This is why the souls in purgatory are called "Holy Souls" . . .  they have died in God's grace and they will attain heaven and the beatific vision of God after their purification is complete.

Essentially this means that purgatory is a sort of temporary purifying punishment which is typically thought of as a cleansing  fire (see 1 Cor. 3:15). This begs the question, is purgatory a sort of physical, fiery place full of souls?  Not necessarily.  I would think of purgatory as more of a state of being.  A state of being post mortal death but before the final judgment of Christ at the Second Coming.

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Matthew A.Duvall
3 hours ago, theophilus said:

This simply means that he went to where Abraham was.  The ESV translation of Luke 16:22,23 says, "The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side."  The fact that they could talk to the rich man shows that they were in Hades just as he was, although they were in a different part.  The Old Testament speaks of Sheol as the place where both the righteous and the unrighteous go at death.  In the New Testament this place is called Hades.  The death of Jesus opened the way for the righteous to go to Heaven, or Paradise, when they die.

I'm not disputing anything you're saying . But I do sometimes question the wording of the ESV. It's one translation that tends to be " Too English." It is one that I have hesitated to buy every time it is offered by my Christian Catalog  Mail Orderr publication. 

As for the subject of the Rich man and Lazarus ,I still consider it an actual event that we can rely on for use in our Christian confessions . There is much to be learned from it .    M

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davy

Doesn't matter if it was a parable or story with fictional characters, that doesn't make His description of Paradise and the great gulf fixed a parable. Right before He died on the cross He told the malefactor that believed on Him that they both would be in Paradise that day. Apostle Paul was caught up to Paradise per 2 Cor.12. It's a real place in the Heavenly.

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Matthew A.Duvall
On 10/5/2019 at 2:22 PM, Antus67 said:

For the a moment let me play the devils advocate here is what the Catholic Church believes in.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

 

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), purgatory is a “final purification” (CCC 1031) which is afforded to “all who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified” so that they might “achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven”

 

This is why the souls in purgatory are called "Holy Souls" . . .  they have died in God's grace and they will attain heaven and the beatific vision of God after their purification is complete.

Essentially this means that purgatory is a sort of temporary purifying punishment which is typically thought of as a cleansing  fire (see 1 Cor. 3:15). This begs the question, is purgatory a sort of physical, fiery place full of souls?  Not necessarily.  I would think of purgatory as more of a state of being.  A state of being post mortal death but before the final judgment of Christ at the Second Coming.

Purgatory is a false doctrine that teaches that after one dies they enter Purgatory for a "final cleansing." None of the bibles used in protestant circles teaches any such thing . The doctrine literally makes the sacrifice of Christ and His justification of believers null and void. That would nullify anything having to do with justification through the shed blood of Christ from the first prophecy recorded in Genesis 3:15 to the actual fulfilment of it when Jesus suffered the cross for all of HIs people. John 19:30.

Fire, used in 1st.Cor.3:15 also is misleading because it has nothing to do with actual cleansing from sin . The Apologetic bible has a clear meaning of what Paul was saying. "  If anyone's work is burned up it will be lost. { No reference here to the eternal state of Hellfire } .   contd. But he will be saved ;yet it will be like an escape through fire ." 

Purgatory is a fictitious invention by the popes that is designed to tell the faithful that they have nothing to worry about because what was not repented of on earth can be rectified in purgatory.

The unbelieving will enter Hades to await Judgment .The redeemed shall immediately enter Heaven upon their deaths. 

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Ron61350

This is not a doctrinal passage. This passage deals with the pharisees wrong beliefs about immediate rewards and punishments after death. Parables are an extended simile and make the point at the end. That being the pharisees didn't believe what the law and Prophets said and neither would the believe when he was raised from the dead. They didn't believe as we know but sought to persecute and murder those who spoke Jesus name. There are older ms which state "and he put forth another parable saying."  Spiritualism is the belief in life after death, an occult belief. God does not speak of life after death until being raised from the dead.

People can argue the point if they wish. but your problem is with God and His Truth. Not me.

God Bless You All Abundantly.

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