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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
Innerfire89

Being born of water is being born.

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Often times people will point to John 3:3 as a proff verse, saying that baptism is necessary for salvation.

But a quick study of the verse in context shows that it has nothing to do with water baptism.

 

First clue us that birth is the subject, birth involves water or embryonic fluid.

The first and second birth are placed a certain say in the wording.

 

(Verse 5)Unless one is born of water - (verse 6)that which is born of flesh.

(Verse 5) and the Spirit - (verse 6) and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

Last point, if being born of water means baptism then no one knows when they will be baptised, it just sneaks up on you because in verse 8 we see that being born of the Spirit comes like the wind.

 

1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”4Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.c7Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘Youd must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

 

Any additional input?

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Verse 3, ..... unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. 

 

Here the key point is 'born again', it is not like our first born from mother womb. It is born by water and the Spirit.

 

Verse 5, .... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 

 

Our first born is born of the flesh, from mother womb. But we need be born again, which is born of water and the Holy Spirit. And we must be born again.

 

Be born by water is baptized by water; be born by the Holy Spirit, is baptized by the Holy Spirit.

 

Be baptized by the Holy Spirit just like wind blows. We cannot see wind, however while wind blows, we can hear the sound and see leaf shaking. Be born by the Spirit is the same. We cannot see the Holy Spirit, however while people is baptized by the Holy Spirit, we can hear the new tongue and sometimes see people body is shaking.

 

See attachment of our baptized by water. Of course, we know the time when we got it. Thanks God. Glory to God.

 

 

baptized.jpeg

Edited by Echo Song

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5 hours ago, Echo Song said:

Verse 3, ..... unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. 

 

Here the key point is 'born again', it is not like our first born from mother womb. It is born by water and the Spirit.

 

Verse 5, .... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 

 

Our first born is born of the flesh, from mother womb. But we need be born again, which is born of water and the Holy Spirit. And we must be born again.

 

Be born by water is baptized by water; be born by the Holy Spirit, is baptized by the Holy Spirit.

 

Be baptized by the Holy Spirit just like wind blows. We cannot see wind, however while wind blows, we can hear the sound and see leaf shaking. Be born by the Spirit is the same. We cannot see the Holy Spirit, however while people is baptized by the Holy Spirit, we can hear the new tongue and sometimes see people body is shaking.

 

See attachment of our baptized by water. Of course, we know the time when we got it. Thanks God. Glory to God.

 

 

baptized.jpeg

I'm not seeing any reason in the passage to interpret the water as baptism in water.

 

If being born of water is baptism and being reborn is baptism of the Holy Spirit then wouldn't there be three births in total? The physical birth, water baptism, and Spirit baptism.

5 hours ago, Faber said:

That's an interesting take on it.

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On 12/21/2018 at 3:46 AM, Innerfire89 said:

I'm not seeing any reason in the passage to interpret the water as baptism in water.

 

If being born of water is baptism and being reborn is baptism of the Holy Spirit then wouldn't there be three births in total? The physical birth, water baptism, and Spirit baptism.

That's an interesting take on it.

Human being all have physical birth. However if we believe Jesus as our savior, Lord told us we need be born again, which includes being born by water and the Holy Spirit. All the apostles, Peter and Paul ask disciples for baptism with water and pray for the Holy Spirit.

Act 19

1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7And all the men were about twelve.

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4 hours ago, Echo Song said:

Human being all have physical birth. However if we believe Jesus as our savior, Lord told us we need be born again, which includes being born by water and the Holy Spirit. All the apostles, Peter and Paul ask disciples for baptism with water and pray for the Holy Spirit.

Act 19

1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7And all the men were about twelve.

The thief on the cross was not baptized with water. Does that mean he was not saved?

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Some how the fact the Jesus the Christ is the Living Water comes into this whole baptisms thing. 

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52 minutes ago, davidtaylorjr said:

The thief on the cross was not baptized with water. Does that mean he was not saved?

For many they misunderstand what water Baptism really is. I am a Baptist and immersion is how I believe is best, but as a pastor I have sprinkled in a hospital setting wher a woman was on her way Home to the Father. I respect those who sprinkle and I believe they respect immersion as well. 

 

The believer on the cross next to Jesus was not baptized. Be cautious not to believe a person has an excuse to avoid baptism, that imo is a sin.

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Eze 36:24  For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 
Eze 36:25  Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 
Num 8:7  And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: Sprinkle water of purifying upon them, and let them shave all their flesh, and let them wash their clothes, and so make themselves clean. 
 

To me baptism should be immersion . That is not always possible as @Just Mike noted. There is some scripture backing to sprinkling. 

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1 hour ago, davidtaylorjr said:

The thief on the cross was not baptized with water. Does that mean he was not saved?

Let's ask Pentecostal Jesus :classic_ninja:

 

1851396698_PentecostalJesus.jpg.f1481400eecac233de84c5dca7c17e43.jpg

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1 hour ago, Becky said:

There is some scripture backing to sprinkling. 

I don't see any Scriptural backing for sprinkling as a regular practice. But that is for a different thread.

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1 hour ago, Becky said:

Eze 36:24  For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 
Eze 36:25  Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 
Num 8:7  And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: Sprinkle water of purifying upon them, and let them shave all their flesh, and let them wash their clothes, and so make themselves clean. 
 

To me baptism should be immersion . That is not always possible as @Just Mike noted. There is some scripture backing to sprinkling. 

 

19 minutes ago, davidtaylorjr said:

I don't see any Scriptural backing for sprinkling as a regular practice. But that is for a different thread.

In reading the whole post i thought is was clear , it was in support of @Just Mike  upon the occasion immersion is just not possible.  No where did i mention sprinkling as a regular practice . 

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1 minute ago, Becky said:

 

 

In reading the whole post i thought is was clear , it was in support of @Just Mike  upon the occasion immersion is just not possible.  No where did i mention sprinkling as a regular practice . 

I guess I misunderstood.

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The Didache (100-150 A.D.) chapter vii: "Baptize into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in living (running) water. But if they have not living water, baptize into other water; and if thou canst not in cold, in warm" (baptisate eis to onoma tou patos kai tou huiou kai tou hagiou pneumatos en hudati zonti). "But if thou have not either, pour out water thrice (tris) upon the head into the name of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit."

 

I think major contention exists when one mode is "rejected" for another. Clearly such practice places tradition over Scripture. There's more than one mode described of baptism, but regardless, water baptism is symbolic, and though immersion may be a better or complete imagery symbolically it is nothing more than symbolism. And having said this, I refer to the mode and not the conveyance of grace in the sacrament as to make baptism nothing more than water.

 

I really respect our church's practice which is by sprinkling. When I asked our Pastor whether he would immerse he said sure, though inconvenient, and if the person believes that only such mode is acceptable he'd be compelled to address their understanding. Again, what we are speaking about here is preference, and a preference can be a tradition, not saying some traditions are good or bad but they can be quite bad when they take precedence over Scripture.

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Once I totally rejected sprinkling,  until I was forced to face the fact not all people want to be immersed and therefore refuse to be baptized. Struggling with our understanding of the Scriptures is the way to Christian maturity, sometimes its quite painful, especially when its a doctrine held by the denomination in which we have been in for many years. I am not saying sprinkling should be the primary way of baptism, but I am willing to be far more understanding and approval of sprinkling. Being a true Follower of Christ is far more important than being baptized either way.

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Mar 1:9  And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. 
Mar 1:10  And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 
Mar 1:11  And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 
Mat 3:16  And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 
Mat 3:17  And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 

 

What from Scripture do we know about the physical part of baptism? 

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9 minutes ago, Becky said:

Mar 1:9  And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. 
Mar 1:10  And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 
Mar 1:11  And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 
Mat 3:16  And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 
Mat 3:17  And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 

 

What from Scripture do we know about the physical part of baptism? 

You left out some important Scripture. When looking at the Old Testament context, when we consider that Jesus entered into the priesthood after the order Melchizedek, and when we see that the requirements of entering into priesthood work involved the sprinkling of water, it makes sense to say that Jesus may very well have been sprinkled at his baptism.

 

Matthew 3:13-17, "Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him. 14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, 'I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?' 15 But Jesus answering said to him, 'Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.' Then he permitted Him. 16 And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him, 17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, 'This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.'”

  • Galatians 4:4; Matthew 5:17 Jesus was born under the Law for Priesthood.
  • Numbers 8:7, "And thus you shall do to them, for their cleansing: sprinkle purifying water on them, and let them use a razor over their whole body, and wash their clothes, and they shall be clean."

 

Quote

 

Hyssop

 

If Jesus was sprinkled, as seems to be the case according to scripture, then it might have been done with a hyssop branch. 

 

Hyssop.  An indigenous plant to western Asia and northern Africa, 1 Kin. 4:33. The Israelites used, in sprinkling the blood of the paschal lamb upon the lintels of their doors, Ex. 12:22; in sprinkling blood in purifications, Lev. 14:4, 6, 51, 52; Heb. 9:19. Used in the sacrifices of separation, Num. 19:6. Used in giving Jesus vinegar on the cross, John 19:29.

 

HYSSOP. The hyssop, or marjoram, plant grows to a height of 1 m. (3.3 ft.) and features stalks of many branches with small, fragrant, green leaves. The numerous hairy branches favor its use as a brush or aspergillum for ritual purposes (Exod. 12:22; Num. 19:6, 18; Ps. 51:7; cf. Heb. 9:19) or for the cleansing of lepers (Lev. 14:4, 6, 49–52). Moreover, like other labiates such as mint and thyme, marjoram contains a volatile oil making it attractive as a purifying agent. The use of hyssop as an aspergillum may explain the “sponge” full of vinegar that the Roman guards raised to Jesus’ lips as he hung upon the cross (John 19:29; cf. also the use of hyssop in flavoring wine), or perhaps John alludes to the sacrificial nature of Jesus’ death; although the stalks of the plant become woody as new shoots form each growing season, this would not have been sufficient to support a sponge (cf. par. Matt. 27:48; Mark 15:36; Gk. kálamos “reed”).

 

So Hyssop was a plant that was used ritualistically.  In the four versus below, you will see that the first and fourth have hyssop being used with sprinkling.  Perhaps this is what was used in Jesus' baptism.

 

 

  • Num. 19:18, "And a clean person shall take hyssop and dip it in the water, and sprinkle it on the tent and on all the furnishings and on the persons who were there, and on the one who touched the bone or the one slain or the one dying naturally or the grave."
  • Psalm 51:7, "Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean.  Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow."
  • John 19:29, "A jar full of sour wine was standing there; so they put a sponge full of the sour wine upon a branch of hyssop, and brought it up to His mouth."
  • Heb. 9:19, "For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people."
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3 minutes ago, William said:

You left out some important Scripture.

 

Matthew 3:13-17, "Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him. 14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, 'I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?' 15 But Jesus answering said to him, 'Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.' Then he permitted Him. 16 And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him, 17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, 'This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.'”

  • Galatians 4:4; Matthew 5:17 Jesus was born under the Law for Priesthood.
  • Numbers 8:7, "And thus you shall do to them, for their cleansing: sprinkle purifying water on them, and let them use a razor over their whole body, and wash their clothes, and they shall be clean."

 

"Hyssop

 

If Jesus was sprinkled, as seems to be the case according to scripture, then it might have been done with a hyssop branch. 

 

Hyssop.  An indigenous plant to western Asia and northern Africa, 1 Kin. 4:33. The Israelites used, in sprinkling the blood of the paschal lamb upon the lintels of their doors, Ex. 12:22; in sprinkling blood in purifications, Lev. 14:4, 6, 51, 52; Heb. 9:19. Used in the sacrifices of separation, Num. 19:6. Used in giving Jesus vinegar on the cross, John 19:29.

 

HYSSOP. The hyssop, or marjoram, plant grows to a height of 1 m. (3.3 ft.) and features stalks of many branches with small, fragrant, green leaves. The numerous hairy branches favor its use as a brush or aspergillum for ritual purposes (Exod. 12:22; Num. 19:6, 18; Ps. 51:7; cf. Heb. 9:19) or for the cleansing of lepers (Lev. 14:4, 6, 49–52). Moreover, like other labiates such as mint and thyme, marjoram contains a volatile oil making it attractive as a purifying agent. The use of hyssop as an aspergillum may explain the “sponge” full of vinegar that the Roman guards raised to Jesus’ lips as he hung upon the cross (John 19:29; cf. also the use of hyssop in flavoring wine), or perhaps John alludes to the sacrificial nature of Jesus’ death; although the stalks of the plant become woody as new shoots form each growing season, this would not have been sufficient to support a sponge (cf. par. Matt. 27:48; Mark 15:36; Gk. kálamos “reed”).

So Hyssop was a plant that was used ritualistically.  In the four versus below, you will see that the first and fourth have hyssop being used with sprinkling.  Perhaps this is what was used in Jesus' baptism."

 

  • Num. 19:18, "And a clean person shall take hyssop and dip it in the water, and sprinkle it on the tent and on all the furnishings and on the persons who were there, and on the one who touched the bone or the one slain or the one dying naturally or the grave."
  • Psalm 51:7, "Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean.  Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow."
  • John 19:29, "A jar full of sour wine was standing there; so they put a sponge full of the sour wine upon a branch of hyssop, and brought it up to His mouth."
  • Heb. 9:19, "For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people."

Exactly the type of response i was hoping for .  To me baptism MUST be like this way is like KJO 

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12 minutes ago, Becky said:

Exactly the type of response i was hoping for .  To me baptism MUST be like this way is like KJO 

Be careful, because when we start making inferences from the OT that are not necessary inferences we end up with things like Infant Baptism.

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10 minutes ago, Becky said:

Exactly the type of response i was hoping for .  To me baptism MUST be like this way is like KJO 

Consider Hebews 9 with emphasis on Hebrews 9:10 "but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation."

 

As you're implying, such emphasis on the outward or material does little to clear the conscience.

 

One of the reasons I tread carefully in this kinda discussion is because I don't want to cheapen the sacrament of baptism. I really do believe it is a sin to neglect this ordinance and that sometimes such great emphasis can be placed on the outward display that it is thought such action is guaranteed regeneration.

 

The Westminster Confession of Faith has an entire chapter on the topic of Baptism:

 

Chapter 28 - Of Baptism.

Section 1.) Baptism is a sacrament of the new testament, ordained by Jesus Christ,(1) not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church;(2) but also, to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace,(3) of his ingrafting into Christ,(4) of regeneration,(5) of remission of sins,(6) and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in newness of life.(7) Which sacrament is, by Christ's own appointment, to be continued in His Church until the end of the world.(8)

(1) Mt 28:19 (2) 1Co 12:13 (3) Ro 4:11 with Col 2:11,12 (4) Gal 3:27; Ro 6:5 (5) Tit 3:5 (6) Mk 1:4 (7) Ro 6:3,4 (8) Mt 28:19,20

------------------------------------

Section 2.) The outward element to be used in this sacrament is water, wherewith the party is to be baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, by a minister of the Gospel, lawfully called thereunto.(1)

(1) Mt 3:11; Jn 1:33; Mt 28:19,20

------------------------------------

Section 3.) Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but Baptism is rightly administered by pouring, or sprinkling water upon the person.(1)

(1) Heb 9:10,19,20,21,22; Ac 2:41; Ac 16:33; Mk 7:4

------------------------------------

Section 4.) Not only those that do actually profess faith in the obedience unto Christ,(1) but also the infants of one, or both, believing parents, are to be baptized.(2)

(1) Mk 16:15,16; Ac 8:37,38 (2) Ge 17:7,9 with Gal 3:9,14 and Col 2:11,12; and Ac 2:38,39; and Ro 4:11,12; 1Co 7:14; Mt 28:19; Mk 10:13-16; Lk 18:15

------------------------------------

Section 5.) Although it be a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance,(1) yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated or saved, without it;(2) or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.(3)

(1) Lk 7:30 with Ex 4:24-26 (2) Ro 4:11; Ac 10:2,4,22,31,45,47 (3) Ac 8:13,23

------------------------------------

Section 6.) The efficacy of Baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered;(1) yet, not withstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited, and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongeth unto, according to the counsel of God's own will, in His appointed time.(2)

(1) Jn 3:5,8 (2) Gal 3:27; Tit 3:5; Eph 5:25,26; Ac 2:38,41

------------------------------------

Section 7.) The sacrament of Baptism is but once to be administered unto any person.(1)

(1) Tit 3:5

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1 minute ago, William said:

Section 4.) Not only those that do actually profess faith in the obedience unto Christ,(1) but also the infants of one, or both, believing parents, are to be baptized.(2)

(1) Mk 16:15,16; Ac 8:37,38 (2) Ge 17:7,9 with Gal 3:9,14 and Col 2:11,12; and Ac 2:38,39; and Ro 4:11,12; 1Co 7:14; Mt 28:19; Mk 10:13-16; Lk 18:15

We are going to need a new topic on this....

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1 minute ago, davidtaylorjr said:

We are going to need a new topic on this....

There's an entire category which this has been discussed. Please refer to the category Apologetics and Theology >>> Baptism >>> Covenant and Household Baptism.

 

https://www.christforums.com/forum/87-covenanthousehold-baptism/

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A simple sounding thing but i caught my attention   " living (running "  post #19I have never associated  living water with running water.  Maybe that is why i dont care for baptismals . Running water is not a stagnant pool it is refreshed .  Thanks @William  very informative.  By speaking of the running water dont get the idea i did not catch the rest 

 

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