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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
Erik

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5 minutes ago, Just Mike said:

Erick said all moderators were Calvinistic, I don' think your are. Are you?

Mike. I never said that 

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Just now, Just Mike said:

Erick said all moderators were Calvinistic, I don' think your are. Are you?

As a quick answer i will say yes . But i am still learning. I have not studied Calvin's or Luther's  works. As for the good ol TULIP I do not see any good reason to discard any of the ideals it puts forth.  I am not even close to learned as many reformers are.  Some Pentecostalism may still be hiding some place. 🙂

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23 minutes ago, Becky said:

Even ones 'faith' is God given 

Rom_12:3  For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 

I can only imagine how some read "God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." I'm sure some reading this have isolated that part of the verse from " to every man that is among you".  That is, evidenced by the sloppy handling of 2 Peter 3.

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11 hours ago, Erik said:

That would be a mistake to terminate my account. I believe salvation is only possible because God sent his son Jesus to die for our sins

 

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

For me to take any credit for my salvation because I accepted what only by the grace of God he gave to me would be silly

Erick, I should have read this post first.  Your mistaken to think your account can't be dumped at anytime. In the past people who got their accounts terminated deserved it, and frankly you are headed that way also IMO.

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11 minutes ago, Erik said:

Mike. I never said that 

Erick, go back and read your posts, you seem to be confused in what you've said. Perhaps you meant? It sure reads like it.

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@Erik This is the state of man according to Scripture 

 

Rom 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 
Rom 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 
Rom 3:12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 
Rom 3:13  Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 
Rom 3:14  Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 
Rom 3:15  Their feet are swift to shed blood: 
Rom 3:16  Destruction and misery are in their ways: 
Rom 3:17  And the way of peace have they not known: 
Rom 3:18  There is no fear of God before their eyes. 


How does this man choose Christ? 

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5 hours ago, Becky said:

@Erik This is the state of man according to Scripture 

 

Rom 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 
Rom 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 
Rom 3:12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 
Rom 3:13  Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 
Rom 3:14  Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 
Rom 3:15  Their feet are swift to shed blood: 
Rom 3:16  Destruction and misery are in their ways: 
Rom 3:17  And the way of peace have they not known: 
Rom 3:18  There is no fear of God before their eyes. 


How does this man choose Christ? 

When did the Gentiles begin to choose Christ? Paul asks us how can a man choose Christ if he has not heard of him (Romans 10:14) - he can’t. So faith comes by hearing - that’s the point of Paul’s work. To spread the Gospel to the Gentiles for them to hear. So an unrighteous man can choose Christ when he hears the Gospel which tells him he is evil and that his outcome will be death but there is an alternative - Salvation. An unrighteous man is still an intelligent man who can think and make decisions and who makes decisions based on the information they have knowledge of. I could ask you Why does “that man” choose to not kill or steal (and passes laws as such)? Aren’t they evil and have not good in them? Yes but I’d say they make that choice despise that because they do not want to be killed or be stolen from. Even an unrighteous man can see the goodness of God and want that goodness. 

That same man when given the word of the Gospel and the promise of life instead of death and seeing the goodness of God can repent and can choose life (Christ) (Romans 2:4). The gift of Salvation given to us only by the grace of God and through faith in Jesus Christ. 

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26 minutes ago, Erik said:

When did the Gentiles begin to choose Christ? Paul asks us how can a man choose Christ if he has not heard of him (Romans 10:14) - he can’t. So faith comes by hearing - that’s the point of Paul’s work. To spread the Gospel to the Gentiles for them to hear. So an unrighteous man can choose Christ when he hears the Gospel which tells him he is evil and that his outcome will be death but there is an alternative - Salvation. An unrighteous man is still an intelligent man who can think and make decisions and who makes decisions based on the information they have knowledge of. I could ask you Why does “that man” choose to not kill or steal (and passes laws as such)? Aren’t they evil and have not good in them? Yes but I’d say they make that choice because they do not want to be killed or be stolen from. Even an unrighteous man can see the goodness of God and want that goodness. 

That same man when given the word of the Gospel and the promise of life instead of death and seeing the goodness of God can repent and can choose life (Christ) (Romans 2:4). The gift of Salvation given to us only by the grace of God and through faith in Jesus Christ. 

Pelagian: also called Pelagian Heresy, a 5th-century Christian heresy taught by Pelagius (q.v.) and his followers that stressed the essential goodness of human nature and the freedom of the human will. Pelagius was concerned about the slack moral standards among Christians, and he hoped to improve their conduct by his teachings. Rejecting the arguments of those who claimed that they sinned because of human weakness, he insisted that God made human beings free to choose between good and evil and that sin is a voluntary act committed by a person against God’s law. Celestius, a disciple of Pelagius, denied the church’s doctrine of original sin and the necessity of infant Baptism.

 

Pelagianism was opposed by Augustine, bishop of Hippo, who asserted that human beings could not attain righteousness by their own efforts and were totally dependent upon the grace of God. Condemned by two councils of African bishops in 416, and again at Carthage in 418, Pelagius and Celestius were finally excommunicated in 418; Pelagius’ later fate is unknown.

 

The controversy, however, was not over. Julian of Eclanum continued to assert the Pelagian view and engaged Augustine in literary polemic until the latter’s death in 430. Julian himself was finally condemned, with the rest of the Pelagian party, at the Council of Ephesus in 431. Another heresy, known as Semi-Pelagianism (q.v.), flourished in southern Gaul until it was finally condemned at the second Council of Orange in 529.

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1 minute ago, William said:

Pelagian.

Not. Seeing the goodness of God and hearing his Word is what leads an unrighteous man to chose Christ. 

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1 minute ago, Erik said:

Not. Seeing the goodness of God and hearing his Word is what leads an unrighteous man to chose Christ. 

You're a heretic.

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1 minute ago, Erik said:

Not Pelagian

Not a member.

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32 minutes ago, Erik said:

An unrighteous man is still an intelligent man who can think and make decisions and who makes decisions based on the information they have knowledge of. I could ask you Why does “that man” choose to not kill or steal (and passes laws as such)? Aren’t they evil and have not good in them? Yes but I’d say they make that choice because they do not want to be killed or be stolen from. Even an unrighteous man can see the goodness of God and want that goodness. 

That same man when given the word of the Gospel and the promise of life instead of death and seeing the goodness of God can repent and can choose life (Christ) (Romans 2:4). The gift of Salvation given to us only by the grace of God and through faith in Jesus Christ. 

 

Not. Seeing the goodness of God and hearing his Word is what leads an unrighteous man to chose Christ. 

Pelagianism views humanity as basically good and morally unaffected by the Fall. It denies the imputation of Adam's sin, original sin, total depravity, and substitutionary atonement. It simultaneously views man as fundamentally good and in possession of libertarian free will. With regards to salvation, it teaches that man has the ability in and of himself (apart from divine aid) to obey God and earn eternal salvation. Pelagianism is overwhelmingly incompatible with the Bible and was historically opposed by Augustine (354-430), Bishop of Hippo, leading to its condemnation as a heresy at Council of Carthage in 418 A.D. These condemnations were summarily ratified at the Council of Ephesus (A.D. 431).

 

As a result of his basic assumption, Pelagius taught that man has an unimpaired moral ability to choose that which is spiritually good and possesses the free will, ability, and capacity to do that which is spiritually good. This resulted in a gospel of salvation based on human works. Man could choose to follow the precepts of God and then follow those precepts because he had the power within himself to do so.

 

The controversy came to a head when Pelagian teaching came into contact with Augustine. Augustine did not deny that man had a will and that he could make choices. But, Augustine recognized that man did not have a free will in moral issues related to God, asserting that the effects original sin were passed to the children of Adam and Eve and that mankind’s nature was thereby corrupted. Man could choose what he desired, but those desires were influenced by his sinful nature and he was unable to refrain from sinning.

 

Pelagius cleared himself of charges, primarily by hiding his real beliefs; however, at the Council of Carthage in 418 A.D., his teachings were branded as heresy. The Council of Ephesus in 431 A.D., again condemned Pelagian doctrine and it was banished in the Greek portion of the church. However, in the West, the teachings held on, primarily in Britain and Gaul.

 

Pelagian teaching was replaced with Semi-Pelagianism which sought a middle ground between Pelagianism and Augustinianism, but it too was condemned at the Second Synod of Orange in 529 A.D. However, elements of Semi-Pelagianism continued in the Western (Roman) church. It emerged again after the Reformation in modified form in Arminianism which was rejected by the Reformed churches at the Synod of Dort in 1618-1619 A.D.

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7 hours ago, Erik said:

When did the Gentiles begin to choose Christ? Paul asks us how can a man choose Christ if he has not heard of him (Romans 10:14) - he can’t. So faith comes by hearing - that’s the point of Paul’s work. To spread the Gospel to the Gentiles for them to hear. So an unrighteous man can choose Christ when he hears the Gospel which tells him he is evil and that his outcome will be death but there is an alternative - Salvation. 

 

 In order for them to "choose Christ" they were drawn by Him to begin with (John 6:44).

 

 Notice also that the salvation message in Romans 10 follows the affirmation by Paul that it does not depend on him that willeth, but of God that sheweth mercy (Romans 9:16).

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9 hours ago, Erik said:

Even an unrighteous man can see the goodness of God and want that goodness. 

Erik you stated the above. Which directly contradicts what God said . He said it twice . ( Romans 3) We should not compare man to man to understand the human fallen nature but compare fallen man to the Word of God . The Scriptures should be our guide our standard. You out right say God is in error by your postings .  This is very sad to me, even when it is pointed out to you in scripture , you have claimed to be correct and God is incorrect .

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William, by saying "not a member" does that mean Erick is like history? If so you have been extremely patient with him. Stubbornness often suggests an unteachable person. I don't where he got his understanding of basic Christian Theology. If a person does not understand that man has an inherited nature of sin, then they would believe in the "goodness of man" which is pure poppycock, rubbish, and dung from the author of all lies that wicked evil Satan himself.

 

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1 hour ago, Just Mike said:

William, by saying "not a member" does that mean Erick is like history?

Unfortunately, yes.

 

1 hour ago, Just Mike said:

If so you have been extremely patient with him.

Thanks!

 

1 hour ago, Just Mike said:

I don't where he got his understanding of basic Christian Theology.

It begins with no understanding of proper exegesis.

 

When Origen tried to help while utilizing the original language Erik laughed at him.

 

1 hour ago, Just Mike said:

If a person does not understand that man has an inherited nature of sin, then they would believe in the "goodness of man" which is pure poppycock, rubbish, and dung from the author of all lies that wicked evil Satan himself.

Correct, if a man does not understand his sin nature in relation to a Holy God then they'll have a high view of themselves which is so prideful that they even exalt themselves to the point of self-idolatry (reminiscent of Lucifer's fall), believing that they have the power in themselves to save themselves simply by applying an autonomous or libertarian will.

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14 hours ago, Erik said:

Not. Seeing the goodness of God and hearing his Word is what leads an unrighteous man to chose Christ. 

Romans directly refutes that. There is NONE that seeketh after God.

 

1 hour ago, William said:

When Origen tried to help while utilizing the original language Erik laughed at him.

This was a pattern he took even back when I was on staff.  Scoffs at people who dare to use anything other than the KJV even if it is the Greek and Hebrew itself!

 

 

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Sadly Erik holds the same view as many Christians do. They have said the 'sinners prayer' go to church try and live a good life. That is as deep as they see. If the face of Scripture to not say to ones self . WHOA  i need to study this is truly sad.  I hope/pray the Eriks of the Christian world will read these posts noticing the differences between tradition and the reality of Scripture, 

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Some people refuse to see and read the warnings signs God has posted in His Word, as well as  His Followers who tried to warn him of his false theology here in CF.

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15 hours ago, Erik said:

Not. Seeing the goodness of God and hearing his Word is what leads an unrighteous man to chose Christ. 

Joh_6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 
 

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2 minutes ago, Becky said:

Joh_6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 

Does not really get more clear than that.

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1 minute ago, Becky said:

Joh_6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 
 

He proved several times over that having a solid understanding of what the Bible says, and not a few verses taken out of context, is the only way to understand John 6:44 and all the other verses that says the Holy Spirit draws men, as the Father has already determined.

 

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One of my favorite pet verses when first becoming a Calvinist was John 10:26, "but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep." Notice the verse does not say you are not my sheep BECAUSE YOU DO NOT BELIEVE. That'd be a reversed message, the verse in fact states that they do not believe because they are not Jesus' sheep. The question then may be how's anyone Jesus' sheep?  Those doctrines of Predestination/Election begin to shine! And let's not forget the really pesky verses in Matthew 19 which are a response to man's works, "25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

 

Consider how repetitive this particular teaching is in John 6!


 

Quote

 

25 When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, h“Rabbi, when did you come here?” 26 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, iyou are seeking me, not because you saw jsigns, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” 28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” 30 So they said to him, s“Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, u‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, w“Sir, give us this bread always.”

 

35 Jesus said to them, x“I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of hall that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

 

41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, m“I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, n“Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, s‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 vnot that anyone has seen the Father except whe who is from God; he xhas seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

 

52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, i“How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of jthe Son of Man and drink his blood, you khave no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood lhas eternal life, and mI will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood nabides in me, and I in him. 57 As othe living Father psent me, and qI live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread3 the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus4 said these things in the synagogue, as he taught sat Capernaum.

 

The Words of Eternal Life

 

60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

 

66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is ma devil.” 71 He spoke of Judas nthe son of Simon Iscariot, for ohe, one of the twelve, was going to betray him.

 

 

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On 2/11/2019 at 1:41 AM, Erik said:

Not. Seeing the goodness of God and hearing his Word is what leads an unrighteous man to chose Christ. 

 

[2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NLT] 3 If the Good News we preach is hidden behind a veil, it is hidden only from people who are perishing. 4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

 

[2 Corinthians 4:3-4 KJV] 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NASB] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 

... another place where Scripture says ‘nope’ to a perfectly good human theory about people deciding for themselves.

Edited by atpollard

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