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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
Erik

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5 minutes ago, Just Mike said:

Respectfully, your taking the position that anyone who is not a 5 pointer has it all wrong.

What I am suggesting is that anything less than a 5 Point Calvinist is theologically inconsistent. 

 

6 minutes ago, Just Mike said:

Many Followers of Jesus Christ disagree with that. 

Yes, identity politics exists even in the church. It is far easier to identify as a theological label then to actually learn the theology behind the label.

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7 minutes ago, Just Mike said:

No they do not, read the five points again, that;s a Arminian First point.

I am a Calvinist. I am very familiar with all five points and have taught classes on them. I assure you, Calvinists believe we have free will. The problem is not free will, but ability.  We do not have the ability to do good and choose God because of our depraved nature.

 

Think about this. Do I have the freedom to choose to be a professional ballplayer? ABSOLUTELY! But I will never do that. Why? I do not have the ability to be a professional ballplayer.

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15 minutes ago, davidtaylorjr said:

Calvinists affirm Free Will.

I always have to ask what a person means by "free will". Most often people simply mean "choice". A lot of such people actually have little or no knowledge of the theology which is rather sensitive to such choice of words. Having said that, you're right in that Calvinist affirm a man's choice, if that's all they mean by free will. It is when Calvinist begin emphasizing accountability and responsibility for decisions made by reprobate that a lot of contention begins to surface. For example, someone against Calvinism may suggest that the burden of sin is on God's shoulders and he is accountable and responsible for our sins. On the surface that appears to mean much more than the advocate for the reprobate means. In one way Jesus Christ is accountable and responsible for our sins and us as our federal head. However, the reprobate chooses or decides to reject Jesus Christ. They shall be held accountable and responsible for their own sins before God. I have no problem acknowledging such points and even emphasizing them.

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6 minutes ago, William said:

What I am suggesting is that anything less than a 5 Point Calvinist is theologically inconsistent. 

This is exactly right.

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5 hours ago, Just Mike said:

I am not a Calvinist, but I try to show respect and in turn I always and treated with respect.,your post seems contentious to me. This is a Calvinists forum, and if you read the information when you joined you would be aware of this.. I consider myself to be a bit of a foreigner in the mists of a Calvinists country. I prefer to show kindness in my posts, I watch to make sure that I hopefully don't offend or raise eyebrows. Give it some thought.

 

In the choices of Calvinism or Arminianism, I am neither. I am in the middle, which is a difficult place to be.

Nothing disrespectful intended...I think its a legitimate question and one I've definitely been thinking about. I know this board (especially William and the Moderators) would provide well thought of responses which I appreciate.

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11 hours ago, William said:

performance based salvation. For example, a "Conditional Election" merits grace and suggests that man is righteous (unhindered by a Sin nature) and based on his righteous decision the natural man merited (works righteousness) God's grace (pointing back to Pelagianism).

Don’t you think there is some flaw to labeling accepting a gift as being performance based? If I said here’s $1000 id like to donate to this board and I handed it to you - you’d consider you taking it from me as the work that merited you that $1000?

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20 minutes ago, Erik said:

Don’t you think there is some flaw to labeling accepting a gift as being performance based?

That isn't what is being stated.

 

However, if you gave me a gift and then stated a condition I need to meet on my own or I'd lose the gift then that'd becomes performance based.

 

If you gave me a gift which included all the work necessary to meet whatever condition then that'd not be based on my own works or performance.

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20 minutes ago, William said:

That isn't what is being stated.

 

However, if you gave me a free gift in grace and then stated a condition or I'd lose the gift then that'd becomes performance based.

The condition being that you accept the gift? If you don’t accept it you lose it. You’d consider you accepting the gift as the work that merited the gift and that it was a performance based gift because it required you to accept it?

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13 minutes ago, Erik said:

The condition being that you accept the gift? If you don’t accept it you lose it. You’d consider you accepting the gift as the work that merited the gift?

Eric, the gift is God. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

Now, are you saved by your "act" of faith or by the object of faith Jesus Christ?

 

And to answer your question directly isn't that what "conditional election" suggests? God from before the foundation of the world looked through the corridors of time to see who might "accept" Him and chose them on that qualification for predestination. Wouldn't that be an act of righteousness on part of the sinner?

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, William said:

Eric, the gift is God. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

Now, are you saved by your "act" of faith or by the object of faith Jesus Christ?

 

And to answer your question directly isn't that what "conditional election" suggests? God from before the foundation of the world looked through the corridors of time to see who might "accept" Him and chose them on that basis. Wouldn't that be an act of righteousness on part of the sinner?

 

 

 

You received the $1000 only because of the grace I showed you by giving it to you. For you to take any credit for getting the $1000 because you accepted it from me would be silly 

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3 minutes ago, Erik said:

You received the $1000 only because of the grace I showed you by giving it to you. For you to take any credit for getting the $1000 because you accepted it from me would be silly 

Answer my questions which were directly put to you.

 

15 minutes ago, William said:

Eric, the gift is God. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

Now, are you saved by your "act" of faith or by the object of faith Jesus Christ? 

 

And to answer your question directly isn't that what "conditional election" suggests? God from before the foundation of the world looked through the corridors of time to see who might "accept" Him and chose them on that qualification for predestination. Wouldn't that be an act of righteousness on part of the sinner?

 

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12 minutes ago, William said:

Answer my questions which were directly put to you.

 

 

I was hoping you’d answer the question I posed to you first 

 

William said: 

That isn't what is being stated.

 

However, if you gave me a free gift in grace and then stated a condition or I'd lose the gift then that'd becomes performance based.

 

Erik said:

The condition being that you accept the gift? If you don’t accept it you lose it. You’d consider you accepting the gift as the work that merited the gift and that it was a performance based gift because it required you to accept it?

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15 minutes ago, Erik said:

I was hoping you’d answer the question I posed to you first 

 

William said: 

That isn't what is being stated.

 

However, if you gave me a free gift in grace and then stated a condition or I'd lose the gift then that'd becomes performance based.

 

Erik said:

The condition being that you accept the gift? If you don’t accept it you lose it. You’d consider you accepting the gift as the work that merited the gift and that it was a performance based gift because it required you to accept it?

Ah, so you'd prefer someone to address your analogy rather than address the actual theology?

 

At this point Eric, I'm going to ask @Origen and @Becky to review your account and posts. I do not believe you're Protestant. And if it were left to me your account would be terminated.

 

A little history Eric:

 

"The Catholic Church taught that we are saved by the merits of Christ and the saints, and that we approach God through Christ, the saints, and Mary, who all pray and intercede for us. The Reformers responded, “No, we are saved by the merits of Christ Alone, and we come to God through Christ Alone”. The Catholic Church adhered to what Martin Luther called the “theology of glory” (in opposition to the “theology of the cross”), in which the glory for a sinner's salvation could be attributed partly to Christ, partly to Mary and the saints, and partly to the sinner himself. The reformers responded, “No, the only true gospel is that which gives all glory to God alone, as is taught in the scriptures.”

 

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14 minutes ago, William said:

Ah, so you'd prefer someone to address your analogy rather than address the actual theology?

 

At this point Eric, I'm going to ask @Origen and @Becky to review your account and posts. I do not believe you're Protestant. And if it were left to me you're account would be terminated.

 

A little history Eric:

 

"The Catholic Church taught that we are saved by the merits of Christ and the saints, and that we approach God through Christ, the saints, and Mary, who all pray and intercede for us. The Reformers responded, “No, we are saved by the merits of Christ Alone, and we come to God through Christ Alone”. The Catholic Church adhered to what Martin Luther called the “theology of glory” (in opposition to the “theology of the cross”), in which the glory for a sinner's salvation could be attributed partly to Christ, partly to Mary and the saints, and partly to the sinner himself. The reformers responded, “No, the only true gospel is that which gives all glory to God alone, as is taught in the scriptures.”

 

 

 

That would be a mistake to terminate my account. I believe salvation is only possible because God sent his son Jesus to die for our sins

 

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

For me to take any credit for my salvation because I accepted what only by the grace of God he gave to me would be silly

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On 2/9/2019 at 12:13 AM, Erik said:

Perhaps The doctrine of Circumcision would be an example. It was a commandment and doctrine derived from the Scriptures but was set aside so as to not divide the church or turn others from accepting Christ. Should a doctrine that the Sabbath day is on Saturday and not Sunday be a doctrine that causes division or turn others from accepting Christ? 

Rom 2:29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.  

 

Heb_4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 

 

The question is not about what Calvin, Luther or any other guy said but is of what the Scripture says . 
 

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10 hours ago, William said:

Eric, the gift is God. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. 

I did state the above, are you now responding to my statement with:

9 hours ago, Erik said:

I believe salvation is only possible because God sent his son Jesus to die for our sins

Salvation is only possible? Was it the Father’s intent to send His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross to make salvation only possible for everyone, but with the possibility that His death would be effective for no one?

10 hours ago, William said:

Now, are you saved by your "act" of faith or by the object of faith Jesus Christ?

Do you believe in a definite atonement or not Eric? Is the atonement efficient by design for the Elect or is the atonement unlimited making salvation only possible? If God is not willing that any of us should perish (2 Peter 3:8-9), but that all of us should come to salvation is Peter speaking of all mankind indiscriminately? Did God send Christ to die on the cross only to wishfully cross His fingers while hoping someone might take advantage of Jesus' atoning death?

9 hours ago, Erik said:

For me to take any credit for my salvation because I accepted what only by the grace of God he gave to me would be silly

Yes, let's down play and make silliness of idolatry and spurring God to jealousy. 

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@Eric Having just re-read this thread i will suggest to you reading again your posts. Re-reading with out the thoughts in our heads that caused us to post as we did helps us understand what the other guy receives from reading,. We are all the other guy . I posted back a few posts something to the effect the 2 sides are unique. In my head i was thinking unique from each other but did not post that part in hind sight i should have.  

 

From a  Pentecostal dispensational background .. reading Scripture always pointed to that view. It was not over night but i had picked up a few thoughts and started praying please Lord open my mind and spirit to Your Word with out any preconceived thoughts .  That is how i am asking you to read your posts.  They are are full of contradictions, could be that was the intent . Thank you , Becky

 

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2 hours ago, William said:

Salvation is only possible? Was it the Father’s intent to send His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross to make salvation only possible for everyone, but with the possibility that His death would be effective for no one?

Salvation being only possible meaning Salvation only exists because of God. It was the Father’s intent to send His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross to give salvation to everyone and anyone that believed in Jesus. 

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:40‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

Jesus certainly did many things to convince people who he was. The many miracles were for that purpose. His resurrection he foretold would convince people. 

 

“And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

And many more believed because of his own word; And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:39, 41-42‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

Sending Jesus to not only be the sacrifice but also to be the light of the world and God sending Paul to the Gentiles were certainly actions taken by God to ensure that His death would be effective. 

 

The final statement and Great Commission was certainly to be sure His death would be effective.

“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations...”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:19‬ ‭KJV‬

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27 minutes ago, Erik said:

Salvation being only possible meaning Salvation only exists because of God. It was the Father’s intent to send His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross to make salvation possible to everyone and anyone that believed in Jesus. 

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:40‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

Jesus certainly did many things to convince people who he was. The many miracles were for that purpose. His resurrection he foretold would convince people. 

 

“And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

And many more believed because of his own word; And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:39, 41-42‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

Sending Jesus to not only be the sacrifice but also to be the light of the world and God sending Paul to the Gentiles were certainly actions taken by God to ensure that His death would be effective. 

 

The final statement and Great Commission was certainly to be sure His death would be effective.

“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations...”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:19‬ ‭KJV‬

Just amazes me on how you dodge a question put to you.

 

I'll go by what you say,

27 minutes ago, Erik said:

It was the Father’s intent to send His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross to make salvation possible to everyone and anyone that believed in Jesus. 

This avoids the questions which were brought into existence based on your understanding of predestination.

 

It avoids addressing whether God looked through the corridors of time to learn who met a "conditional election". The condition is belief, therefore, only those who initially believe (man's works) are elected/predestined. Did God only make POSSIBLE salvation, wishfully crossed His fingers, and then searched for those who initiate faith? Or did God predestine or elect (sovereignly and monergistically) some to salvation, producing the fruits of the Spirit such as faith, confession, repentance, and conversion through regeneration (inward call and effectual grace) and apply a definite or limited atonement to them?

 

You then state that anyone that believed after God making possible salvation. This goes against T or Total Depravity or Inability and Original Sin (Pelagianism). For man to initiate salvation meeting a conditional atonement aligns more with either Unbelievers or Catholicism than Protestant theology.

 

At this point, I'm going to avoid 19 pages of garbage that followed an Annihilationism thread and conclude that it is impossible to extract any orthodox theology out of you Eric.

 

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Erick, I am also guilty of sometimes getting in a rush and not rereading my posts, so it is a very good suggestion to re read out posts. However I get very confused reading you posts. I wonder if you have read any books on Orthodox Christian Theology, that would very essential for you to conform with most Protestants believe at least in a general sense. As I read your posts you are pretty mixed up and I can't tell where you are coming from. Perhaps spending more time starting with Matthew read the New Testament completely, and may I suggest you read it in a different Translation other that the KJV. The NASB, ESV, HCSB, NIV, CSB, and for people who have a very difficult reading and understanding the NLT.  Take notes so you will have some consistent recall of what you read. I sincerely hope this helps your spiritual growth.

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2 hours ago, William said:

Do you believe in a definite atonement or not Eric? Is the atonement efficient by design for the Elect or is the atonement unlimited making salvation only possible? If God is not willing that any of us should perish (2 Peter 3:8-9), but that all of us should come to salvation is Peter speaking of all mankind indiscriminately? Did God send Christ to die on the cross only to wishfully cross His fingers while hoping someone might take advantage of Jesus' atoning death?

Your atonement occurs when you accept Christ as your Saviour. When you believe/put your faith in Him. The same as when God considered Abraham righteous. 

“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:3, 5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

In 2 Peter 3, Peter is talking about the people of the world. Yes he is talking about all mankind. God does not want anyone to follow Satan. He wants everyone to choose Christ.

God sent his son to die for our sins because of his love towards us. To give salvation to those who accept Christ. 

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10 minutes ago, Erik said:

Your atonement occurs when you accept Christ as your Saviour. When you believe/put your faith in Him. The same as when God considered Abraham righteous. 

“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:3, 5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

In 2 Peter 3, Peter is talking about the people of the world. Yes he is talking about all mankind. God does not want anyone to follow Satan. He wants everyone to choose Christ.

God sent his son to die for our sins because of his love towards us. To give salvation to those who accept Christ. 

And still, you can't answer the questions put to you. You now shift to "all these other verses" and apply your horrible methods and principles of interpretation and make them say what you want the verses to mean (esisgesis).

 

You touch upon Justification by faith, but you fail to address YOUR initial question which stemmed from your misunderstanding of predestination. You have isolated your very argument from the context of your initial argument!  Now you want to build upon your false theology because that's what heretics do. Such heretics laugh at proper exegesis and systematic theology.

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19 hours ago, Erik said:

Nothing disrespectful intended...I think its a legitimate question and one I've definitely been thinking about. I know this board (especially William and the Moderators) would provide well thought of responses which I appreciate.

Then definitely use words that reflect a kinder intention. IMO you were rude in your posts. I have never had William ever say things like he has yours, I suggest you think carefully about what you wrote before you hit that "Submit Reply". I think you are headed in the wrong direction. William is a Calvinists, but not all the Moderators are, so your assumption is wrong again. Be careful in what you post friend.

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2 hours ago, Becky said:

 

@Eric Having just re-read this thread i will suggest to you reading again your posts. Re-reading with out the thoughts in our heads that caused us to post as we did helps us understand what the other guy receives from reading,. We are all the other guy . I posted back a few posts something to the effect the 2 sides are unique. In my head i was thinking unique from each other but did not post that part in hind sight i should have.  

 

From a  Pentecostal dispensational background .. reading Scripture always pointed to that view. It was not over night but i had picked up a few thoughts and started praying please Lord open my mind and spirit to Your Word with out any preconceived thoughts .  That is how i am asking you to read your posts.  They are are full of contradictions, could be that was the intent . Thank you , Becky

 

Erick said all moderators were Calvinistic, I don' think your are. Are you?

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7 minutes ago, Erik said:

Your atonement occurs when you accept Christ as your Saviour. When you believe/put your faith in Him. The same as when God considered Abraham righteous. 

“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:3, 5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

In 2 Peter 3, Peter is talking about the people of the world. Yes he is talking about all mankind. God does not want anyone to follow Satan. He wants everyone to choose Christ.

God sent his son to die for our sins because of his love towards us. To give salvation to those who accept Christ. 

Even ones 'faith' is God given 

Rom_12:3  For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 

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