Jump to content

The Protestant Community

Sincerely inquiring about the Protestant faith? Welcome to Christforums the Christian Protestant community. You'll first need to register in order to join our community. Create or respond to threads on your favorite topics and subjects. Registration takes less than a minute, it's simple, fast, and free! Enjoy the fellowship! God bless, Christforums' Staff
Register now

Christian Fellowship

John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
Erik

What Does Our Work Accomplish?

Recommended Posts

15 hours ago, davidtaylorjr said:

Nobody was saved as a result of Paul's missionary work either.

What in your opinion then was the result of Paul's missionary work if it wasn’t leading souls to Christ? I’d say as a result of Paul’s missionary work people were hearing the good news and accepting Christ and getting saved. 

Edited by Erik

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, Erik said:

What in your opinion then was the result of Paul's missionary work if it wasn’t leading souls to Christ? I’d say as a result of Paul’s missionary work people were hearing the good news and accepting Christ and getting saved. 

I split this off into a new topic.  No, people do not get saved as a result of anything that we do. People only get saved if the Spirit calls them because they are Elect. Otherwise, it doesn't matter how much they hear the good news, they will never accept Christ because they do not have the ability to accept Christ.

Share this post


Link to post

Paul tells us he endures all things for the sake of the elect that they might be saved.

Paul labors were for the church only.

 

2 Timothy 2:9-10 New King James Version (NKJV)

9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the [a]elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Share this post


Link to post

The Jerusalem council of apostles notes this in Acts, Known to God from eternity are all His works.

 

Jesus in John 6 says, This is the work of God that you believe in His Son.

 

About Paul, speaking with Ananias in Acts 9, But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.  

For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”

 

Revelation 11:18

The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

 

Revelation 22:12

[ Jesus Testifies to the Churches ] “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

Edited by sdowney717

Share this post


Link to post
17 hours ago, davidtaylorjr said:

I split this off into a new topic.  No, people do not get saved as a result of anything that we do. People only get saved if the Spirit calls them because they are Elect. Otherwise, it doesn't matter how much they hear the good news, they will never accept Christ because they do not have the ability to accept Christ.

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17KJV

faith is a result of hearing the word of God

 

and you contradict yourself in your statement. You said people don’t get saved as a result of anything they do....then you say salvation is a result of a person accepting Christ. 

 

Not everyone the Spirit calls accepts Christ 

“For many are called, but few are chosen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Edited by Erik

Share this post


Link to post
17 hours ago, Erik said:

and you contradict yourself in your statement. You said people don’t get saved as a result of anything they do....then you say salvation is a result of a person accepting Christ. 

This is not contradictory. The Holy Spirit regenerates and we have no choice but to accept that call. It is the Holy Spirit's work, not ours.

 

17 hours ago, Erik said:

Not everyone the Spirit calls accepts Christ 

“For many are called, but few are chosen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

A problem with this.

 

This does not say that not everyone the Spirit calls accepts Christ. In fact, it says the exact opposite. The chosen, DO accept.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, davidtaylorjr said:

This is not contradictory. The Holy Spirit regenerates and we have no choice but to accept that call. It is the Holy Spirit's work, not ours.

 

A problem with this.

 

This does not say that not everyone the Spirit calls accepts Christ. In fact, it says the exact opposite. The chosen, DO accept.

 

I agree. Do we not think that God, who knows the future, has revelation knowledge as to which of us will follow Him? It ludicrous to think He would choose someone that would have no part of Him. I think the statement "many are called" is not what most think it is.   :classic_smile:

Share this post


Link to post
47 minutes ago, deade said:

 

I agree. Do we not think that God, who knows the future, has revelation knowledge as to which of us will follow Him? It ludicrous to think He would choose someone that would have no part of Him. I think the statement "many are called" is not what most think it is.   :classic_smile:

This is not correct either. God did not "see who would choose Him" no, HE CHOSE US. End of story. God chooses who to save and who not to save.

Share this post


Link to post
32 minutes ago, davidtaylorjr said:

This is not correct either. God did not "see who would choose Him" no, HE CHOSE US. End of story. God chooses who to save and who not to save.

 

So you don't believe that there are evil people who love darkness rather than light (John 3:19). And that God will not choose any of them. I agree on the firstfruits predestination that very few are chosen; but all in all God knows what He is doing.  :RpS_thumbup:

Share this post


Link to post
27 minutes ago, deade said:

So you don't believe that there are evil people who love darkness rather than light (John 3:19)

I definitely believe that. I believe that is every human being on earth. Nobody loves light without the election and call of the Holy Spirit.  I do not believe that God does not choose any of them, because the Bible clearly states he chooses some of them.

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, davidtaylorjr said:

The Holy Spirit regenerates and we have no choice but to accept that call. 

You realize that doesn’t even make sense. Yes God gives the oppprtunity of salvation to an elect few but not everyone who has been elected to hear God’s word accepts it. And God uses tools like preachers and his Word to get the message out. And for some salvation is a result of those tools. I’m sure you agree there will be rewards in Heaven 

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
1 hour ago, Erik said:

You realize that doesn’t even make sense. Yes God gives the oppprtunity of salvation to an elect few but not everyone who has been elected to hear God’s word accepts it. And God uses tools like preachers and his Word to get the message out. And for some salvation is a result of those tools. I’m sure you agree there will be rewards in Heaven 

God just crosses his fingers hoping someone will choose him. Ain't that right, Erik? (sarcasm).

 

And um no. God does not give the opportunity of salvation to an elect few but the outward or Gospel call (evangelism) goes out to everyone without exception. The Elect do not have a big "E" on their T-shirts, otherwise, we'd not waste our time with others!

Share this post


Link to post
48 minutes ago, William said:

God just crosses his fingers hoping someone will choose him. Ain't that right, Erik? (sarcasm).

 

And um no. God does not give the opportunity of salvation to an elect few but the outward or Gospel call (evangelism) goes out to everyone without exception. The Elect do not have a big "E" on their T-shirts, otherwise, we'd not waste our time with others!

The Elect are those that believe and accept Christ as their Saviour. 

Just now, Erik said:

God just crosses his fingers hoping someone will choose him. Ain't that right, Erik? (sarcasm).

I believe he sent his son to die for us and to be the Light of the world. A little more than just crossing his fingers 

Share this post


Link to post
11 hours ago, davidtaylorjr said:

This is not contradictory. The Holy Spirit regenerates and we have no choice but to accept that call. It is the Holy Spirit's work, not ours.

 

A problem with this.

 

This does not say that not everyone the Spirit calls accepts Christ. In fact, it says the exact opposite. The chosen, DO accept.

It doesnt say the chosen DO accept  It just say few are chosen. And who are those few that are chosen? Those that believe and accept Christ as their savior.  Everyone has a choice - that’s what we are judged and accountable for. 

Edited by Erik

Share this post


Link to post
10 hours ago, davidtaylorjr said:

This is not correct either. God did not "see who would choose Him" no, HE CHOSE US. End of story. God chooses who to save and who not to save.

We are making progress I agree with you and the Bible teaches us that God chooses to save those who believe and accept in Jesus (John 3:16). 

Share this post


Link to post

 1. Is it because God chose them that they believe?

 

 2. Doesn't John 1:13 and Romans 9:16 teach that salvation does not derive from the will of man and that it is the Lord (not us) who opens the heart in order for us to respond to the gospel (Acts 16:14)?

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, Faber said:

 1. Is it because God chose them that they believe?

 

 2. Doesn't John 1:13 and Romans 9:16 teach that salvation does not derive from the will of man and that it is the Lord (not us) who opens the heart in order for us to respond to the gospel (Acts 16:14)?

 Is it because God chose them that they believe?

Set the Bible down for a minute and think about that statement - your strict reading of the Bible is preventing you from see the absurdity of that statement. That same strict reading of the Bible mindset was true in Jesus' day too and prevented religious leaders from thinking and understaning also - Jesus healing on the Sabbath from a strict reading was against the Scriptures...certain foods should not be be eaten another example (Jesus explained its not what comes out but what goes in that defiles a man).  Salvation is 100% a gift from God - without God giving us that gift, man would have no hope and man certainly couldn't create a salvation for himself. It is by the grace (and love) of God that man was given salvation - and that gift is given to any man that believes and accepts Christ as their saviour.

 

That being said - God of course as the potter at his discretion can harden the heart and can turn the heart towards him of anyone he chooses for whatever purpose he chooses. That does not imply its a systematic control across the board.

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
2 hours ago, Erik said:

Set the Bible down for a minute and think about that statement - your strict reading of the Bible is preventing you from see the absurdity of that statement.

Quit setting down the bible and pick it up.

 

This is exactly what Protestantism teaches (monergism). As you suggested the Elect will (accept) but more theologically accurate those that believe submit to the word of God Psalm 110:3a. Those that believe were Unconditionally Elected by the Father before the foundation of the world which should make anyone profess Soli Deo Gloria Ephesians 1:4. God's plan was made known and set forth explicitly into motion ever since Genesis 3:15. The natural man does not and cannot hear, perceive, see, nor does he desire or accept God lest God regenerates man in His timing 1 Cor 2:12,14; Ephesians 2:5; Ezekiel 36:25-27; John 3:1-10. Confession, repentance, and belief are all fruits of the Holy Spirit and the effects of regeneration which precede faith.

 

The entire salvation process as explicitly stated in Ephesians 1;2 as well as Romans 8:29-30 state the Ordo Salutis:

 

Jesus Christ is the source of all redemptive blessings, including regeneration, justification, sanctification (1 Cor 1:30). Election is the superstructure of our ordo salutis (a blueprint, so to speak, of what God intends to do for elect sinners in time), but not itself the application of redemption. Regeneration, the work of the Holy Spirit which brings us into a living union with Christ, has a causal priority over the other aspects of the process of salvation.

 

  • God opens our eyes, we see.
  • God circumcises/ unplugs our ears, we hear.
  • Jesus calls a dead and buried Lazarus out of the grave, he comes; (Eph 2:5)
  • In the same way, the Holy Spirit applies regeneration, (opening our spiritual eyes and renewing our affections), immediately and infallibly resulting in faith. (John 6:63, 65)

 

God bless,

William

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Erik said:

Set the Bible down for a minute and think about that statement - your strict reading of the Bible is preventing you from see the absurdity of that statement.

 

 This is something I would expect to hear from an Atheist.

 

 The Pharisees supreme authority was their tradition in which they used to nullify what the Bible teaches (Matthew 15:2-3).

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, Faber said:

 

 This is something I would expect to hear from an Atheist.

 

 The Pharisees supreme authority was their tradition in which they used to nullify what the Bible teaches (Matthew 15:2-3).

I set the Bible down constantly as I read it - sometimes to look up a city being referenced or a person or perhaps a word. And sometimes just to think about what I just read and reflect on it’s meaning in the context of God’s overall message. 

 

The Pharisees traditions were based on the Scriptures and their understanding of the scriptures 

Edited by Erik

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, William said:

Quit setting down the bible and pick it up.

 

This is exactly what Protestantism teaches (monergism). As you suggested the Elect will (accept) but more theologically accurate those that believe submit to the word of God Psalm 110:3a. Those that believe were Unconditionally Elected by the Father before the foundation of the world which should make anyone profess Soli Deo Gloria Ephesians 1:4. God's plan was made known and set forth explicitly into motion ever since Genesis 3:15. The natural man does not and cannot hear, perceive, see, nor does he desire or accept God lest God regenerates man in His timing 1 Cor 2:12,14; Ephesians 2:5; Ezekiel 36:25-27; John 3:1-10. Confession, repentance, and belief are all fruits of the Holy Spirit and the effects of regeneration which precede faith.

 

The entire salvation process as explicitly stated in Ephesians 1;2 as well as Romans 8:29-30 state the Ordo Salutis:

 

Jesus Christ is the source of all redemptive blessings, including regeneration, justification, sanctification (1 Cor 1:30). Election is the superstructure of our ordo salutis (a blueprint, so to speak, of what God intends to do for elect sinners in time), but not itself the application of redemption. Regeneration, the work of the Holy Spirit which brings us into a living union with Christ, has a causal priority over the other aspects of the process of salvation.

 

  • God opens our eyes, we see.
  • God circumcises/ unplugs our ears, we hear.
  • Jesus calls a dead and buried Lazarus out of the grave, he comes; (Eph 2:5)
  • In the same way, the Holy Spirit applies regeneration, (opening our spiritual eyes and renewing our affections), immediately and infallibly resulting in faith. (John 6:63, 65)

 

God bless,

William

Ok and explain to me the part about judgement and punishment in Hell and rewards in Heaven. Judged for not accepting Christ? A decision that is not ours?

Edited by Erik

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
30 minutes ago, Erik said:

Ok and explain to me the part about judgement and punishment in Hell and rewards in Heaven. Judged for not accepting Christ? A decision that is not ours?

You're touching upon the doctrine of double predestination. The natural man is held accountable and responsible for his actions/denial etc though God passes over the reprobate. The decision is yours (if you're unregenerate) but you'd not even seek God without first being regenerated: Psalm 14:2-3; Isaiah 64:6; Romans 3:10-12.

 

The natural man has rejected God and they shall be held both accountable and responsible for their sins.

 

In the life of the Elect God has supernaturally intervened in their lives bringing them from spiritual death to life (regeneration). God has given the Elect a heart after Him and caused them to walk in His statues in obedience to the Word by the Spirit Ezekiel 36:25-27.

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, William said:

You're touching upon the doctrine of double predestination. The natural man is held accountable and responsible for his actions/denial etc. The decision is yours (if you're unregenerate) but you'd not even seek God without first being regenerated: Psalm 14:2-3; Isaiah 64:6; Romans 3:10-12.

I would not have seeked God had he not sent his son to die for my sins and to be the light of the world. 

 

....and explain to me the part about judgement and punishment in Hell and rewards in Heaven. Judged for not accepting Christ? A decision that is not ours?

Share this post


Link to post
45 minutes ago, Erik said:

 

The Pharisees traditions were based on the Scriptures and their understanding of the scriptures 

 Their traditions superceeded the Scriptures and Christ pointed this out to them.

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
18 minutes ago, Erik said:

I would not have seeked God had he not sent his son to die for my sins and to be the light of the world. 

 

....and explain to me the part about judgement and punishment in Hell and rewards in Heaven. Judged for not accepting Christ? A decision that is not ours?

You need to to study soteriology 101.

 

The decision is yours and you're responsible for your choice/decision. Because you have a choice or a decision to make does mean you're "able". Lemme explain this to you like a 4 year old. I'm going to give you a choice. You can either try or not try but you'll be held accountable and responsible for your actions or non actions, that is your choice or decision.

 

Please try to reach the heavens like a bird by flapping your arms.

 

You can try or not try but once again you're going to be held accountable and responsible should you fall short of heaven.

 

What I am suggesting by my analogy is that you're incapable of reaching heaven like a bird because of your human nature. Flap all day long but you'll never reach heaven. Likewise, you have a sin nature which grounds you. You are not Holy and can never reach the heavens. All have fallen short of God's Glory, and all are unrighteous.

 

So, are you going to try or not try? Either way you're doomed and will be condemned to Hell. There is no A for effort or participation trophy for trying. Either Christ Jesus needed die and impute His righteousness in your miserable life or He didn't.

 

Which is it?

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Topics

    • The Spirit's Work in the Conversion of Lydia: Acts 16.13-15

      by James Buchanan   THERE is one important circumstance which was common to all those cases of conversion that are recorded in Scripture, and which well deserves our most serious consideration; I mean the direct operation of the Holy Spirit on the mind of every true convert to the Christian faith, in the way of applying the truth, which is ordinarily the means of conversion. The agency of the Spirit is specially referred to by our Lord himself, in one of the last and most affecting of tho

      in Bible Study

    • Conservatives Push Right-To-Work Laws As Unions Hemorrhage Thousands Of Members

      By Tim Pearce - The Mackinac Center, a free-market think tank, is stepping up efforts to promote right-to-work policies and regulations nearly a year after the Supreme Court banned union agency fees in the public sector. Mackinac is expanding its operations from informing public sector union workers and fee payers of their rights secured by the June 2018 decision in Janus v. American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees (AFSCME). The free-market think tank launched a new cam

      in Political Conservative News

    • Activists Vow John Wayne Will Never Work In Hollywood Again

      HOLLYWOOD, CA—After a 1971 Playboy interview with John Wayne that was deemed offensive surfaced online, liberal activists took to the streets to boycott the actor, vowing that Wayne will never work in Hollywood again. The post Activists Vow John Wayne Will Never Work In Hollywood Again appeared first on The Babylon Bee. View the original full article

      in Christian Satire

    • 3 Tips for Sharing Your Faith at Work

      I just started a job in the corporate world after six years in vocational ministry. One reason for leaving my Christian workplace was for the evangelism opportunity, but I could use some tips to get me started. Do you have any suggestions on how to share my faith in the workplace? How exciting! I appreciate your heart for reaching lost people with the good news, and your boldness in seeking out a new occupation. Let me share with you a single profound sentence about workplace evangelism, and u

      in Christian Current Events

    • ‘Green New Deal’ Seeks Welfare For Those ‘Unwilling To Work’

      By Michael Bastasch - New York Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez’s “Green New Deal” resolution calls on the federal government to provide economic security for those “unwilling to work.” A “Green New Deal” FAQ posted on Ocasio-Cortez’s congressional website says a “Green New Deal” Would guarantee “[e]conomic security to all who are unable or unwilling to work.” In other words, people who may not want to work. The same line is on the FAQ Ocasio-Cortez’s staff gave to NPR along with the actual

      in Political Conservative News

×
×
  • Create New...