Jump to content

The Protestant Community

Sincerely inquiring about the Protestant faith? Welcome to Christforums the Christian Protestant community. You'll first need to register in order to join our community. Create or respond to threads on your favorite topics and subjects. Registration takes less than a minute, it's simple, fast, and free! Enjoy the fellowship! God bless, Christforums' Staff
Register now

Christian Fellowship

John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
justasking

Date of Revelation

Date of Revelation  

3 members have voted

  1. 1. When was Revelation written?

    • around 95 AD under Domitian
      2
    • around 65 under Nero
      1
    • during the year of the four emperors (69 AD)
      0
    • Other (please state)
      0


Recommended Posts

Staff
Just now, davidtaylorjr said:

Interesting. So they put their faith in Jesus Christ and called him Lord? They didn't even know who he was. No. All are saved by grace through faith.


In the OT. They put faith in the fact that God would send a redeemer, a messiah. Today we put faith in Jesus who we now know to be the Messiah. Is that exactly the same? No it is not, but both are saved by Grace through Faith.

Exactly, by grace through faith in the very same person.

 

And as you stated OT saints had a forward looking faith in the Messiah's coming and NT saints have a historical looking faith.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
5 minutes ago, davidtaylorjr said:

To put it in the most simple terms that I can:

 

Dispensational Theology is a system that sees the interpretation of Scripture as literal where possible and recognizes that God interacts with humanity differently in different periods of time.

 

This is not a controversial issue when you define it this way. Now, what different Dispensationalists believe may be controversial, yes. But Dispensational Theology in itself is not.

 

Example:  In the Old Testament followers of God were to be circumcised, make animal sacrifices, came to God through priests, etc.  In the New Testament, those things are no longer required.  That is two different time periods with two different interaction protocols with God.

Question, do you reject typology and how do you reconcile a literal interpretation to a vision when visions are interpreted by biblical authors throughout Scripture symbolically and figuratively?

Share this post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, William said:

Exactly, by grace through faith in the very same person.

 

And as you stated OT saints had a forward looking faith in the Messiah's coming and NT saints have a historical looking faith.

Ok.... so then you know that some (I would argue most) Dispensationalists believe this, so I'm not sure why you talk about bad soteriology with regard to Dispensational Theology.

2 minutes ago, William said:

Question, do you reject typology and how do you reconcile a literal interpretation to a vision when visions are interpreted by biblical authors throughout Scripture symbolically and figuratively?

I never said that everything is to be interpreted literally. That would be absurd.

9 minutes ago, Origen said:

Isn't this topic about the date of composition of Revelation?

Yes, good point. Sorry for getting off topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
21 minutes ago, davidtaylorjr said:

Ok.... so then you know that some (I would argue most) Dispensationalists believe this, so I'm not sure why you talk about bad soteriology with regard to Dispensational Theology.

Again, I haven't ran into Dispenationalist before that didn't believe man was saved differently according to various dispensations.

 

My main disagreeing with Dispensationalist "used to be" over the identity of Israel/Church. But I have learned to just accept what someone professes and says verbatim. I do this with the Nicene Creed, when someone rejects the catholic church I haven't any issue acknowledging that they are not part of the Nicene church. When someone rejects the church being Israel I haven't any problem accepting that they are not Israel.

Share this post


Link to post
10 minutes ago, William said:

Again, I haven't ran into Dispenationalist before that didn't believe man was saved differently according to various dispensations

I guess it depends on your definition of different. Do I see a difference between the Old and New despite both being ultimately saved by grace through faith? Yes. Perhaps nuanced is a more accurate term. Ultimately, if you do not have faith in the Messiah, there is no salvation for you.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, William said:

Well, I'm thinking aloud and I draw to another book and scholarship in the past. Isaiah was said to be written after Jesus' birth by scholars which questioned the dating. Instead of a prophetical book it was deemed more historical written after the fact. I'd think the same implications could be said of Revelation if the events were written after a historical event. Someone please glean some light on the subject if I am wrong?

I believe Luke 21:24 & Revelation 11:2 are the same event, and there hasn't been denial of this with many preterist?

 

Revelation 11:2 below suggest this as a future event from the writing, that I believe is 95/96AD, as it uses a future tense?

 

" it is given" not "It was given"?

 

"The Holy city shall they tread" not "The Holy city have/did they tread"?

 

To make the historical interpretation work, you now have to symbolize everything in Revelation 11:2-15?

 

Two witnesses, plagues, streets, dead bodies, people watching, people exchanging gifts, city, earthquake, etc?

 

Luke 21:24KJV

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

Revelation 11:2KJV

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Edited by Truth7t7

Share this post


Link to post
Staff

Sometimes we need to remember labels are helpful tools and not 'bad' words. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
5 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

I believe Luke 21:24 & Revelation 11:2 are the same event, and there hasn't been denial of this with many preterist?

 

Revelation 11:2 below suggest this as a future event from the writing, as it uses a future tense?

 

"For it is given" not "It was given"?

 

"The Holy city shall they tread" not "The Holy city have/did they tread"?

 

To make the historical interpretation work, you now have to symbolize everything in Revelation 11:2-15?

 

Two witnesses, plagues, streets, dead bodies, people watching, people exchanging gifts, city, earthquake, etc?

 

Luke 21:24KJV

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

Revelation 11:2KJV

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Brother, lemme be blunt. You lost a lot of credibility with me when you contended for isolating a verse in Peter which rejected the context. Likewise, the verse you are pointing out now sits in a book from a vision, and you insinuate that symbolism would be an incorrect method and interpretation of a vision.

 

God bless,

William 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Staff

IMO  these introductory verses matter in the dating of The revelation of Jesus Christ 

 

Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 
Rev 1:2  Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 
Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand
 

  • Best Answer 1

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
9 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

Revelation 11:2 below suggest this as a future event from the writing, as it uses a future tense?

 

"For it is given" not "It was given"?

Sorry but the Greek verb is past tense.  It is an aorist.

 

11 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

"The Holy city shall they tread" not "The Holy city have/did they tread"?

The Greek verb in this case is future tense.

Share this post


Link to post
26 minutes ago, William said:

Brother, lemme be blunt. You lost a lot of credibility with me when you contended for isolating a verse in Peter which rejected the context. Likewise, the verse you are pointing out now sits in a book from a vision, and you insinuate that symbolism would be an incorrect method and interpretation of a vision.

 

God bless,

William 

Thanks for the response, we will disagree.

 

This isn't the only verse that refutes the preterist interpretation held by many?

 

Many preterist believe Verse 15 below Daniels abomination of desolation and Verse 21 beliw "The Great Trubulation" took place in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70AD?

 

As is clearly seen below, the abomination in verse 15, causes the Great Tribulation in verse 21, and in verse 29-30 immediately after this tribulation, the second advent takes place?

 

Many preterist are now faced with rejecting the second advent is seen in verse 29-30 through symbolism and allegory, because we know we'll this is yet a future event.

 

Matthew 24:15-31KJV

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Edited by Truth7t7

Share this post


Link to post
14 minutes ago, Becky said:

IMO  these introductory verses matter in the dating of The revelation of Jesus Christ 

 

Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 
Rev 1:2  Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 
Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand
 

You show one fact, the book of Revelation was written to show "Future Events" and wasn't looking to a historical perspective.

 

You use the basic argument that many preterist use in verses 1 & 3 "Shortly" and "At Hand"?

 

Verse 19 below gives the interpretation of this?

 

"Things which are" such as chapters 1-4 in writing on the conditions of the 7 churches, and "Things Hereafter" chapters 5-22 that addresses future events that will proceed the second advent of Jesus Christ, final judgment,  and eternal kingdom?

 

Revelation 1:19KJV

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Edited by Truth7t7

Share this post


Link to post
15 minutes ago, Origen said:

Sorry but the Greek verb is past tense.  It is an aorist.

 

The Greek verb in this case is future tense.

I believe the verse that Becky has used cleary shows the vision projects future events, not historical?

 

Future: "Things Which Must Shortly Come To Pass"?

 

Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
9 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

I believe the verse that Becky has used cleary shows the vision projects future events, not historical?

The verb in 11:2 is an aorist, a past tense verb.  That is a fact and beyond dispute.

Share this post


Link to post
Staff

To my simple mind shortly and at hand did not / do not mean a few thousand years later.  In searching the Scriptures we see the use of shortly and at hand means what we would expect the terms to mean.

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
5 minutes ago, Becky said:

To my simple mind shortly and at hand did not / do not mean a few thousand years later.  In searching the Scriptures we see the use of shortly and at hand means what we would expect the terms to mean.

It is reasonable to think that the original readers would have had the same idea.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
11 minutes ago, Becky said:

To my simple mind shortly and at hand did not / do not mean a few thousand years later.  In searching the Scriptures we see the use of shortly and at hand means what we would expect the terms to mean.

The book of Revelation is chocked full of the future "Second Advent" of Jesus Christ, what we gonna do now to support "shortly" and "at hand"?

Edited by Truth7t7

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
1 minute ago, Truth7t7 said:

The book of Revelation is chocked full of the future "Second Advent" of Jesus Christ, what we gonna do now?

No one said it wasn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Staff

We can agree, on this point,  Jesus Christ has no beginning or end.  

The Revelation is the Revelation of Jesus Christ . 

 

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, Origen said:

No one said it wasn't.

Many preterist use "shortly" and "at hand" to support 66-70AD fulfillment?

 

The second advent throws a wrench in this theory, because we know this is a future event.

 

Just as many preterist use Matthew chapter 24 to support 66-70AD fulfillment of Daniels Abomination and Great Tribulation?

 

Matthew 24:29-30 shows the second advent "Immediately After The Tribulation", this throws another wrench in the gears of the preterist teaching, as they fall back to symbolize the "Very Clear" second advent seen? 

2 minutes ago, Becky said:

We can agree, on this point,  Jesus Christ has no beginning or end.  

The Revelation is the Revelation of Jesus Christ . 

 

Becky it would help if you quote a poster, hard to keep track of who you are responding to?

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
3 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

Many preterist use "shortly" and "at hand" to support 66-70AD fulfillment?

 

The second advent throws a wrench in this theory, because we know this is a future event.

 

Just as many preterist use Matthew chapter 24 to support 66-70AD fulfillment of Daniels Abomination and Great Tribulation?

 

Matthew 24:29-30 shows the second advent "Immediately After The Tribulation", this throws another wrench in the gears of the preterist teaching, as they fall back to symbolize the "Very Clear" second advent seen? 

I would not doubt some do.  However I have not argued that or has anyone in these posts.  You are tilting at windmills.

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, Origen said:

I am sure they do.  However I have not argued that or has anyone in these posts.  You are tilting at windmills.

Are you preterist in you eschatology?

 

Do you believe Matthew 24:15 & 24:21 in Daniels Abomination and the Great Tribulation were fulfilled in 66-70Ad?

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
Just now, Truth7t7 said:

Are you preterist in you eschatology?

 

Do you believe Matthew 24:15 & 24:21 in Daniels Abomination and the Great Tribulation were fulfilled in 66-70Ad?

Not interested.  Let it go.

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
10 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

Many preterist use "shortly" and "at hand" to support 66-70AD fulfillment?

 

The second advent throws a wrench in this theory, because we know this is a future event.

 

Just as many preterist use Matthew chapter 24 to support 66-70AD fulfillment of Daniels Abomination and Great Tribulation?

 

Matthew 24:29-30 shows the second advent "Immediately After The Tribulation", this throws another wrench in the gears of the preterist teaching, as they fall back to symbolize the "Very Clear" second advent seen? 

I think in a lot of ways people are only talking louder and digging their heels in to support their personal theology. Wouldn't it be more fruitful to examine the why they believe this or that rather what they believe? I for one don't see how the why can be approached without examining the methods and principles used to approach the literature in question. 

 

Two posts are made in the below thread. Why does nobody want to address the methods and principle in our approach to Revelation? It is just common sense that if we don't agree on this basic foundation that the result of our disaggreance will result in different understanding, interpretation, and teaching.

 

 

 

  • Best Answer 1

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
10 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

Becky it would help if you quote a poster, hard to keep track of who you are responding to?

I try to remember to 'quote' when responding to a person.  Sometimes my posts are not to a person but to the whole thread as in this post. 

Quote

 

We can agree, on this point,  Jesus Christ has no beginning or end.  

The Revelation is the Revelation of Jesus Christ . 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Topics

    • Geneva Bible, Revelation, and the Pope

      In the Geneva Bible Note several verses in Revelation are linked to specific popes and other historical people and events.   (1) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree: but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. (Rev. 9:4)   (2) And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. (Rev.

      in Bible Study

    • Media Hypes Roger Stone ‘Revelation’ That Has Been Public For A Year

      By Chuck Ross - A court filing in the special counsel’s case against Roger Stone was widely interpreted in the mainstream press as explosive new evidence of the Trump confidant’s contacts with WikiLeaks and Russian operatives Prosecutors said Friday that search warrants used in the special counsel’s investigation revealed communications that Stone had with WikiLeaks and Guccifer 2.0. Various news outlets seized on the filing as new evidence in the collusion probe But Stone’s contacts wit

      in Political Conservative News

    • Is America the endtime Beast country prophesized in Revelation and Daniel?

      As you may already know the books of Revelation and Daniel etc. prophesized the Beast country, to be appeared in End time. Many people says about it: S ome say it is EU (Europe Union) or other says it is UN (United Nations) or other says it is resurrected Roman empire etc. For me, I convince that USA, America is this very nation, end time beast country. You can see this explanation at below: The book of Daniel depicts this country as: 1.The country which has strong arm

      in Christian Eschatology

    • Don’t Put Your Hope in Date Night

      Running a nonprofit ministry geared toward moms of young children means our inbox continually fills with questions about parenting and marriage. One of the most frequent is, “How do you do date night?” As married moms of littles, we understand firsthand where this is coming from. Like our podcast listeners, we look for reasons to hire a babysitter and spend one-on-one time with our spouses. Out-of-the-house date night without children in tow feels like the secret ingredient to a healthy marriag

      in Christian Current Events

    • Absentminded KJV-Only Believer Still Writing The Date As 1611

      WILKES-BARRE, PA—At the beginning of January, people often complain of accidentally writing the wrong date on all their documents as they adjust to the new year. The post Absentminded KJV-Only Believer Still Writing The Date As 1611 appeared first on The Babylon Bee. View the original full article

      in Christian Satire

×
×
  • Create New...