Jump to content

The Protestant Community

Sincerely inquiring about the Protestant faith? Welcome to Christforums the Christian Protestant community. You'll first need to register in order to join our community. Create or respond to threads on your favorite topics and subjects. Registration takes less than a minute, it's simple, fast, and free! Enjoy the fellowship! God bless, Christforums' Staff
Register now

Christian Fellowship

John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
justasking

Date of Revelation

Date of Revelation  

3 members have voted

  1. 1. When was Revelation written?

    • around 95 AD under Domitian
      2
    • around 65 under Nero
      1
    • during the year of the four emperors (69 AD)
      0
    • Other (please state)
      0


Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, justasking said:

Please answer the poll and discuss.

The dating by "Many Scholars" of the book of Revelation surrounds the statement of "Iranaeus" in his book V against heresies, that John and the revelation took place toward the end of Domitians reign 95/96AD

 

Luke 21:24 & Revelation 11:2 below represent the same event of the fulfilling of the gentiles, many "Preterist" believe this took place in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70AD

 

The later dating of the book of Revelation 95/96AD proves the preterist claim of 66-70 AD fulfillment false as explained.

 

– Saint Irenaeus, Adversus haereses 5, 30, 3

"We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positivelyas to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision.

For [it or he] was seen not very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign.”

 

Luke 21:24KJV

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

Revelation 11:2KJV

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Edited by Truth7t7

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
45 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

The dating by "Many Scholars" of the book of Revelation surrounds the statement of "Iranaeus" in his book V against heresies, that John and the revelation took place toward the end of Domitians reign 95/96AD

 

Luke 21:24 & Revelation 11:2 below represent the same event of the fulfilling of the gentiles, "Preterist" believe this took place in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70AD

 

The later dating of the book of Revelation proves the preterist claim false as explained.

 

– Saint Irenaeus, Adversus haereses 5, 30, 3

"We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positivelyas to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision.

For [it or he] was seen not very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign.”

 

Luke 21:24KJV

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

Revelation 11:2KJV

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Please stop trying to tell others what you think they believe.  I am a partial preterist and I accept a late date for Revelation.  As for Irenaeus, he is an important source and ought to be consulted.  However that is no way suggests everything he says is correct. 

Share this post


Link to post
4 minutes ago, Origen said:

Please stop trying to tell other what you think they believe.  I am a partial preterist and I accept a late date for Revelation.  As for Irenaeus, he is an important source and ought to be consulted.  However that is no way suggests  everything he says is correct.

Sorry to offend you, you are in the vast minority of preterist, I corrected my post and added "many"

Edited by Truth7t7

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
2 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

Sorry to offend you, you are in the vast minority of preterist, I corrected my post and added "many"

Thank you.  Just as @davidtaylorjr pointed out not all dispensationalist hold the same views.  We all need to keep this in mind.  It is fine to debate the topic but let us not start placing others into groups with which they do not agree.  There will be differences between people in the same peer groups.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, Knotical said:

Why does it matter when it was written?

Because it can greatly impact how certain events of End Times theology are interpreted and understood.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
5 minutes ago, Knotical said:

Why does it matter when it was written?

Because a full preterist would probably present Revelation as wholly taken place (or at least for the most part) within the first century.

Share this post


Link to post
Just now, Origen said:

Because a full preterist would probably present Revelation as wholly taken place at least within first century.

So.  What is the perceived significance of this?  Quite frankly I find no benefit in debating these kinds of things.  The only thing, that I see, that matters, at least about this, is that John wrote it.  Does it really make a huge difference as to the time and place it was written?

2 minutes ago, davidtaylorjr said:

Because it can greatly impact how certain events of End Times theology are interpreted and understood.

How?

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, Knotical said:

How?

@Origen answered this, but in short. Depending on the date of authorship some theologians would argue that the end times events have already taken place. The Tribulation is over, etc.  On the other hand, depending on the date, you say that is impossible and these things must still be in the future. That's why it matters.

 

It is fine if you do not believe it matters, but it is still investigating the Scriptures to find the truth of interpretation so while it may not matter to you, it does matter.

1 minute ago, Knotical said:

How?

@Origen answered this, but in short. Depending on the date of authorship some theologians would argue that the end times events have already taken place. The Tribulation is over, etc.  On the other hand, depending on the date, you say that is impossible and these things must still be in the future. That's why it matters.

 

It is fine if you do not believe it matters, but it is still investigating the Scriptures to find the truth of interpretation so while it may not matter to you, it does matter.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
25 minutes ago, Origen said:

Thank you.  Just as @davidtaylorjr pointed out not all dispensationalist hold the same views.  We all need to keep this in mind.  It is fine to debate the topic but let us not start placing others into groups with which they do not agree.  There will be differences between people in the same peer groups.

After many questions answered, David Taylor holds the typical dispensationalist time frames of a 1000 year millennium.

 

I haven't called him a dispensationalist, but his timeline belief is the same.

 

1. 1000 year time period begins at the second advent, return of Jesus Chist.

 

2. Jesus remains on earth with mortal humans present.

 

3. The final judgment takes place 1000 years after his second advent/return.

Share this post


Link to post
32 minutes ago, Knotical said:

So.  What is the perceived significance of this?  Quite frankly I find no benefit in debating these kinds of things.  The only thing, that I see, that matters, at least about this, is that John wrote it.  Does it really make a huge difference as to the time and place it was written?

How?

It makes a big difference if you believe the "Fulfilling Of The Gentiles" seen in Luke and Revelations below took place in the 66-70AD Roman destruction of Jerusalem as many preterist believe?

 

Pretty hard to claim 66-70AD fulfillment, if the account is seen in the book of Revelation written in 95/96AD?

 

Very Important To The Claims Of Many Preterist, And Those That Oppose Their Views.

 

Luke 21:24KJV

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

Revelation 11:2KJV

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Edited by Truth7t7

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
11 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

After many questions answered, David Taylor holds the typical dispensationalist time frames of a 1000 year millennium.


I haven't called him a dispensationalist, but his timeline belief is the same.

I never suggested you did.  I simply pointed out something @davidtaylorjr had previously pointed out.  Moreover, the issue was not that some dispensationalist hold the same views but that not all dispensationalist hold the same views.  No doubt there will be at least some overlap.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
38 minutes ago, Knotical said:

Quite frankly I find no benefit in debating these kinds of things.

I understand your point.  What one person finds important another may not.

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, Origen said:

I understand your point.  What one person finds important another may not.

But how does this kind of debate apply toward any kind of salvation issue, much less apply toward the Great Commission?

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
12 minutes ago, Knotical said:

But how does this kind of debate apply toward any kind of salvation issue, much less apply toward the Great Commission?

In my opinion some eschatology presents soteriological eschatology. In other words, another "way" is open to Jews in the future end times. Throw everything you understand about soteriology out the window because if dispensationalism is correct then salvation varied from one dispensation to another and will be different in a future dispensation.

 

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around how someone can be a dispensationalist but reject dispensational's dispensations.

Share this post


Link to post
4 minutes ago, William said:

In my opinion some eschatology presents soteriological eschatology. In other words, another "way" is open to Jews in the future end times. Throw everything you understand about soteriology out the window because if dispensationalism is correct then salvation varied from one dispensation to another and will be different in a future dispensation.

I generally start to tune out when these terms are being used.

 

There is only one path to salvation.  How does debating when a specific book was written affect the process of salvation?

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
1 minute ago, Knotical said:

I generally start to tune out when these terms are being used.

 

There is only one path to salvation.  How does debating when a specific book was written affect the process of salvation?

Well, I'm thinking aloud and I draw to another book and scholarship in the past. Isaiah was said to be written after Jesus' birth by scholars which questioned the dating. Instead of a prophetical book it was deemed more historical written after the fact. I'd think the same implications could be said of Revelation if the events were written after a historical event. Someone please glean some light on the subject if I am wrong?

Share this post


Link to post
42 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

After many questions answered, David Taylor holds the typical dispensationalist time frames of a 1000 year millennium.

 

I haven't called him a dispensationalist, but his timeline belief is the same.

 

1. 1000 year time period begins at the second advent, return of Jesus Chist.

 

2. Jesus remains on earth with mortal humans present.

 

3. The final judgment takes place 1000 years after his second advent/return.

I never said I wasn't a Dispensationalist.... I AM a Dispensationalist....

 

12 minutes ago, William said:

In my opinion some eschatology presents soteriological eschatology. In other words, another "way" is open to Jews in the future end times. Throw everything you understand about soteriology out the window because if dispensationalism is correct then salvation varied from one dispensation to another and will be different in a future dispensation.

 

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around how someone can be a dispensationalist but reject dispensational's dispensations.

That actually is not an accurate interpretation of what Dispensational Theology is.

 

But let's ask it this way. How were people in the Old Testament saved?

 

6 minutes ago, Knotical said:

There is only one path to salvation.  How does debating when a specific book was written affect the process of salvation?

Are you saying Salvation is the only thing we should be concerned about and nothing else in Scripture matters?

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
19 minutes ago, davidtaylorjr said:

That actually is not an accurate interpretation of what Dispensational Theology is.

 

But let's ask it this way. How were people in the Old Testament saved?

Throws everything up in the air. As stated before I've never run into two dispensationalist that believe the same. Even looking up dispensationalism up in Gotquestions they suggest that the number of dispensations vary from one person to another and are as little as a few to over thirty+ dispensations. So when you say that is not an accurate interpretation of what dispensational theology is then I have to point out the inconsistency of the dispensational camp. This is why I think someone should be given the time to explain their individual theology rather than grouping them together into theological camps when it comes to dispensationalism. I must also admit that it appears to me that you're redefining dispensationalism up to this point by your theology and example, but to be fair you haven't actually defined it, only appealing to the likes of MacArthur's leaky dispensationalism which is yet another dispensationalism being used to redefine classical dispensationalism.

 

As to how OT Testament saints saved my answer is the very same way NT saints are saved.

 

Curious as to your response because to this day I haven't heard a dispensationalist agree.

Share this post


Link to post
Staff
31 minutes ago, Knotical said:

But how does this kind of debate apply toward any kind of salvation issue, much less apply toward the Great Commission?

You are going to have to ask someone who believes that it does.  I don't.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
16 minutes ago, davidtaylorjr said:

Are you saying Salvation is the only thing we should be concerned about and nothing else in Scripture matters?

This is our main concern.  Everything else is secondary.  Sure, being aware that the end times will one day be here, but it should not distract us from the Great Commission.

 

Personally, my philosophy concerning the second coming of Christ is to prepare your heart as if it will happen today, but live your life as if it will not occur until after you are already dead.  I have seen people ruin their lives because they assume the end is now and plan accordingly.  They sell their house and quit their job, then ultimately be forced to find a place to rent and a worse paying job to make ends meet cuz it hasn't happened yet.

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, William said:

As to how OT Testament saints saved my answer is the very same way NT saints are saved.

Interesting. So they put their faith in Jesus Christ and called him Lord? They didn't even know who he was. No. All are saved by grace through faith.


In the OT. They put faith in the fact that God would send a redeemer, a messiah. Today we put faith in Jesus who we now know to be the Messiah. Is that exactly the same? No it is not, but both are saved by Grace through Faith.

1 minute ago, Knotical said:

This is our main concern.  Everything else is secondary.  Sure, being aware that the end times will one day be here, but it should not distract us from the Great Commission.

 

Personally, my philosophy concerning the second coming of Christ is to prepare your heart as if it will happen today, but live your life as if it will not occur until after you are already dead.  I have seen people ruin their lives because they assume the end is now and plan accordingly.  They sell their house and quit their job, then ultimately be forced to find a place to rent and a worse paying job to make ends meet cuz it hasn't happened yet.

I disagree. Yes, we are to make disciples, but we are also supposed to grow in our knowledge of the Lord through His Word. We should always be striving for the truth of Scripture.

1 minute ago, Knotical said:

This is our main concern.  Everything else is secondary.  Sure, being aware that the end times will one day be here, but it should not distract us from the Great Commission.

 

Personally, my philosophy concerning the second coming of Christ is to prepare your heart as if it will happen today, but live your life as if it will not occur until after you are already dead.  I have seen people ruin their lives because they assume the end is now and plan accordingly.  They sell their house and quit their job, then ultimately be forced to find a place to rent and a worse paying job to make ends meet cuz it hasn't happened yet.

I disagree. Yes, we are to make disciples, but we are also supposed to grow in our knowledge of the Lord through His Word. We should always be striving for the truth of Scripture.

Share this post


Link to post
9 minutes ago, William said:

Throws everything up in the air. As stated before I've never run into two dispensationalist that believe the same. Even looking up dispensationalism up in Gotquestions they suggest that the number of dispensations vary from one person to another and are as little as a few to over thirty+ dispensations. So when you say that is not an accurate interpretation of what dispensational theology is then I have to point out the inconsistency of the dispensational camp. This is why I think someone should be given the time to explain their individual theology rather than grouping them together into theological camps when it comes to dispensationalism. I must also admit that it appears to me that you're redefining dispensationalism up to this point by your theology and example, but to be fair you haven't actually defined it, only appealing to the likes of MacArthur's leaky dispensationalism which is yet another dispensationalism being used to redefine classical dispensationalism.

To put it in the most simple terms that I can:

 

Dispensational Theology is a system that sees the interpretation of Scripture as literal where possible and recognizes that God interacts with humanity differently in different periods of time.

 

This is not a controversial issue when you define it this way. Now, what different Dispensationalists believe may be controversial, yes. But Dispensational Theology in itself is not.

 

Example:  In the Old Testament followers of God were to be circumcised, make animal sacrifices, came to God through priests, etc.  In the New Testament, those things are no longer required.  That is two different time periods with two different interaction protocols with God.

Share this post


Link to post
Staff

Isn't this topic about the date of composition of Revelation?

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Topics

    • Geneva Bible, Revelation, and the Pope

      In the Geneva Bible Note several verses in Revelation are linked to specific popes and other historical people and events.   (1) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree: but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. (Rev. 9:4)   (2) And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. (Rev.

      in Bible Study

    • Media Hypes Roger Stone ‘Revelation’ That Has Been Public For A Year

      By Chuck Ross - A court filing in the special counsel’s case against Roger Stone was widely interpreted in the mainstream press as explosive new evidence of the Trump confidant’s contacts with WikiLeaks and Russian operatives Prosecutors said Friday that search warrants used in the special counsel’s investigation revealed communications that Stone had with WikiLeaks and Guccifer 2.0. Various news outlets seized on the filing as new evidence in the collusion probe But Stone’s contacts wit

      in Political Conservative News

    • Is America the endtime Beast country prophesized in Revelation and Daniel?

      As you may already know the books of Revelation and Daniel etc. prophesized the Beast country, to be appeared in End time. Many people says about it: S ome say it is EU (Europe Union) or other says it is UN (United Nations) or other says it is resurrected Roman empire etc. For me, I convince that USA, America is this very nation, end time beast country. You can see this explanation at below: The book of Daniel depicts this country as: 1.The country which has strong arm

      in Christian Eschatology

    • Don’t Put Your Hope in Date Night

      Running a nonprofit ministry geared toward moms of young children means our inbox continually fills with questions about parenting and marriage. One of the most frequent is, “How do you do date night?” As married moms of littles, we understand firsthand where this is coming from. Like our podcast listeners, we look for reasons to hire a babysitter and spend one-on-one time with our spouses. Out-of-the-house date night without children in tow feels like the secret ingredient to a healthy marriag

      in Christian Current Events

    • Absentminded KJV-Only Believer Still Writing The Date As 1611

      WILKES-BARRE, PA—At the beginning of January, people often complain of accidentally writing the wrong date on all their documents as they adjust to the new year. The post Absentminded KJV-Only Believer Still Writing The Date As 1611 appeared first on The Babylon Bee. View the original full article

      in Christian Satire

×
×
  • Create New...