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Faber

The creation of the angels

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What day do you think the angels were created?

Based on Job 38:7 it seems they were created before the creation of the earth.

I also wonder what day they sinned.

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Yeah, I believe before the Earth and the universe were created.  I think the angels fell before the creation of the universe as well.

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8 hours ago, davidtaylorjr said:

The short answer that we do not know.

The devil showed up in the Garden to tempt Eve at some point after creation.  It makes me think he was here all along, as that tree was not to be eaten from.  I guess you are right that we do not know for sure but there are indicators of when the angels fell.

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44 minutes ago, CDF47 said:

The devil showed up in the Garden to tempt Eve at some point after creation.  It makes me think he was here all along, as that tree was not to be eaten from.  I guess you are right that we do not know for sure but there are indicators of when the angels fell.

The only thing we can say definitively about their creation and their fall is that it happened prior to Genesis 3. 

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2 hours ago, davidtaylorjr said:

The only thing we can say definitively about their creation and their fall is that it happened prior to Genesis 3. 

 

So at the very least during the creation of the universe.  I tend to think it is before the creation of the universe even began but I cannot support that Scripturally so I will not even try.

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19 hours ago, CDF47 said:

I tend to think it is before the creation of the universe even began but I cannot support that Scripturally so I will not even try.

I do as well, but like you say, it's just speculation.

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Turning to an extra-biblical source such as Enoch aren't angels depicted as stars? Just entertaining the idea that that places creation of angels on the 4th day of creation. Not only extra-biblical sources could present such an entertaining idea. There's other references such as the morning star that's figuratively used for Lucifer Isaiah 14:12.

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I've given this a little thought in the recent days. 

Someone was on Twitter declaring that man doesn't have free will -and this from a self described bible scholar- who dismissed the half dozen or so references I provided about choosing / willing etc.

Here's the interesting part for me - 

 

So picture yourself a created being - an angel - that are not quite like us in a number of ways. You're there, doing the work God assigns you and then one day, despite everything you see and know and realize about your situation, you decide to go with another angel, and rebel against the very God that created you.

 

So free will - the ability to take action and thought in direct opposition to God's will - is something that apparently was bestowed upon even the angels. And it appears, once their choice was made, there's no return - no ability to repent or change of mind / heart or whatever else makes up for one in an angelic being. Angels who were cast out now called demons - and despite knowing what their ultimate destination is, they continue to corrupt and pollute the world with acts of evil according to the will and direction of their new master, Satan.

 

As other people have written here, scripture doesn't tell us *when* the angels were created, just that they are created beings. And that 1/3rd of them were swept out of heaven in the course of a heavenly insurrection.

 

Well, sorry that I cant honestly answer the question with known scripture(s) -- but I will say that it's probably worth some popcorn and a cozy couch when we get to heaven and hear the entire story from beginning to end. 🙂😄

 

 

 

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On 10/24/2018 at 5:38 PM, Faber said:

What day do you think the angels were created?

Based on Job 38:7 it seems they were created before the creation of the earth.

I also wonder what day they sinned.

Lucifer sinned before the first day of the earth's creation.  The earth, and thus mankind, were created in answer to sin. (more on that later as needful, such as 1 Peter 1:12; Ephesians 3:10).

 

Yes, Job 38:7 (in context), shows that angels existed before the earth was created in Genesis 1.

 

Job 38:4  Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5  Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6  Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7  When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

Yet, moreso, in Matthew18 & Luke 15, we see that their are many unfallen worlds, with unfallen beings, that the Son had left to come and seek and save that which was lost:

 

Mat 18:11  For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Mat 18:12  How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat 18:13  And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

 

Luk 15:3  And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
Luk 15:4  What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luk 15:5  And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
Luk 15:6  And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
Luk 15:7  I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

 

Genesis 1-2, is primarily focused upon the first and second Heavens, and only by implication is the 3rd heaven present (iow, where God is creating from):

 

[1] First Heaven, where the fowl fly (air, atmosphere)

 

Gen 1:8  And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Gen 1:20  And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

 

[2] Second Heaven, where the Sun, Moon and Local stars (planets) are (other worlds already existed).

 

Gen 1:14  And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15  And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

Gen 1:16  And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17  And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

 

When Lucifer is hinted at, in the garden of Eden on earth (which had been "planted" from the original Garden in the 3rd Heaven (Ezekiel 28:13; 2 Corinthians 12:2-4; Revelation 2:7), a literal transplant of the Heavenly home school, that "far country", even the "end of Heaven" (Isaiah 13:5)), he is connected with the "serpent" and already questions the words of God.  Adam and Eve were warned of the tempter by God, when the Son would visit with them in the cool of the day with the angels that would come with him (Genesis 3:8,24).

 

Lucifer, when he began in heaven to question God's rule, and especially in relation to the rulership of the Son of the Father, he had left his arch office and began to disseminate dischord among the fellows of Heaven (Jude 1:6; Hebrews 1:9; Isiah 14; Ezekiel 28, 2 Peter 2:4; etc).

 

Revelation 12, in a dualistic setting, states of the war in Heaven, in which Lucifer lost and was cast out, eventually to come to this earth, which is why we see him indirectly in the garden of Eden in Genesis 3.

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