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talker777

The Church and Money

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Hello Everyone,

   I am a graduate student in theology at Huntsville Bible College in Huntsville, Alabama. I am doing research concerning the Church and money. Not the money after it has been given and what it is used for but before in comes in. In my research I have asked people from numerous denominations how they feel about tithing and giving and have received many different responses. Questions like do you give or tithe? If so, is it by a percentage or a dollar amount? How do you feel about special offerings like those often called for at Christmas or Easter? How do you feel about giving for benevolence and should it be for Church members only or for whoever might have the need? How do you feel about mission giving and which would you support more readily, domestic missions or overseas missions? 

 

   I understand that both Church and money can be sensitive subjects and putting them together can create, at times, conflicts. I am not looking for that. I am merely seeking thoughts and opinions to further my studies. Each gives or doesn't give as they feel led in their heart so there are no pat answers here nor judgments.  

 

   My work and research will eventually end up as a thesis paper (I hope and pray) and be used for a better understanding of giving and why some do and others don't. 

 

   I would really appreciate your thoughts and comments. Thanks greatly...Bill

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Wow . A lot of questions there. 

A touch of personal background. Dad was a small church pastor. My perspective will be from being a PK about 60 years ago. 

A church should support the pastor.

Christian should give from the heart. 

Quote

How do you feel about giving for benevolence and should it be for Church members only or for whoever might have the need? 

In the USA the Church gave its responsibility to care for the widows and fatherless over to the government .. We failed. 

 

Quote

How do you feel about mission giving and which would you support more readily, domestic missions or overseas missions? 

In the mid 50s it was exciting when the missionaries would come to the church . They had slides of far away places . The biggest snake skin i have ever seen. I understand times are different now .. Looking back i now sadly know those guys were 'begging ' monies to head back over seas. There should be a better system and maybe there is.

Home missions?  Way back the Assemblies of God org. had a woman's group  WMC   Womens Missionary Counsel. We kids would get excited about the boxes ... Home made quilts maybe a dress often a small toy. Wish i still had the doll size Papoose Carrier that was in a WMC box. 

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I don't go by any sort of rule for how much to put in the offering plate, I just put in what feels like a reasonable amount, if I even have anything to put in. 

 

There are that many times that I can recall a special offering during Christmas or Easter.

 

Most churches I know of require some kind of proff before giving money to people asking for help, unless it's something small, like a traveler who needs gas money or someone who needs to eat. But if it's something like help on an electric bill then they have to show that electric bill. Sadly people will use churches to get money or beer, drugs, or whatever else.

 

As far as domestic or overseas missions, it doesn't matter to me.

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11 hours ago, talker777 said:

In my research I have asked people from numerous denominations how they feel about tithing and giving and have received many different responses. Questions like do you give or tithe? If so, is it by a percentage or a dollar amount? 

From Biblical history, at about 1500BC, the law of tithing one-tenth or 10% of income/harvests was given by God to the Jews and their theocratic Jewish nation that was ruled by God's chosen prophets or judges. A tithe of 10% was needed to run the Jewish national government in Judea/Israel, eg for national defense, infrastructure development, Temple maintenance, financial support for the priests, etc.

....... At about 800BC, the Jewish nation/kingdom collapsed through sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking = came under foreign rule and foreign taxes, eg besides tithing 10% to the Temple authorities, the Jews had to also pay taxes to the Roman government during the time of Jesus Christ.

 

Today, the Church is not the national government. The Church only needs funds to run the Church, eg for Church maintenance and priests'/pastors' remuneration. So, a tithe of about 2% of income should be sufficient since most Church members are also paying income/property/sales taxes to their national and/or state government.

....... As per Acts 15:24-29 & 21:20-25, Gentile Christians are exempted from any law of God which is a burden. So, if a tithe of 10% to the Church proves burdensome, they should exempt themselves from it.

 

Seems, some Churches have gotten "fat" and corrupt by imposing a tithe of 10% on members as a false legal requirement(eg "you will go to hell if you don't tithe 10%") or through emotional and spiritual manipulation or coercion.

Edited by discipler77

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11 hours ago, discipler77 said:

From Biblical history, at about 1500BC, the law of tithing one-tenth or 10% of income/harvests was given by God to the Jews and their theocratic Jewish nation that was ruled by God's chosen prophets or judges. A tithe of 10% was needed to run the Jewish national government in Judea/Israel, eg for national defense, infrastructure development, Temple maintenance, financial support for the priests, etc.

....... At about 800BC, the Jewish nation/kingdom collapsed through sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking = came under foreign rule and foreign taxes, eg besides tithing 10% to the Temple authorities, the Jews had to also pay taxes to the Roman government during the time of Jesus Christ.

 

Today, the Church is not the national government. The Church only needs funds to run the Church, eg for Church maintenance and priests'/pastors' remuneration. So, a tithe of about 2% of income should be sufficient since most Church members are also paying income/property/sales taxes to their national and/or state government.

....... As per Acts 15:24-29 & 21:20-25, Gentile Christians are exempted from any law of God which is a burden. So, if a tithe of 10% to the Church proves burdensome, they should exempt themselves from it.

 

Seems, some Churches have gotten "fat" and corrupt by imposing a tithe of 10% on members as a false legal requirement(eg "you will go to hell if you don't tithe 10%") or through emotional and spiritual manipulation or coercion.

Wow, I and my wife have never recorded the percentages and if or when a statement of giving arrives, it is placed in file 13, with the other trash, unread.  We do not compute ten percent but with certainty always fall somewhere between a tenth and a fifth and on special occasion, it is more.

 

My question then, is do you want YHWH to bless you as you bless others in His name?

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Hello Everyone,

   Your responses are wonderful! I fully realize that there is no "exact way" that tithing/giving is figured. Each does as he or she is led in their spirit by the Spirit. I have spoken to those that think of a dollar amount while others think a percentage when giving. Some will figure their giving on gross income while others figure it on net. Some see gifts/windfalls/unexpected income as direct blessings therefore do not merit a return giving. Some quote Old Testament while others the New Testament. And then there are some that think they should not give anything for any reason. 

 

   Please don't be bashful with your comments. Everything added is information that I can use. This has been the hardest research project that I have encountered. It is easy to find information concerning the Church and money after it has been given but start talking about the path to the offering plate then everyone, well almost everyone, changes the subject. I have tried to locate blogs and discussion boards and have found many with a Church theme or emphasis but when I start looking for conversation about giving, everything dries up. 

 

   Again, Thanks So Much for your input. Please feel free to add some more...Bill

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2 hours ago, Bill Taylor said:

Wow, I and my wife have never recorded the percentages and if or when a statement of giving arrives, it is placed in file 13, with the other trash, unread.  We do not compute ten percent but with certainty always fall somewhere between a tenth and a fifth and on special occasion, it is more.

 

My question then, is do you want YHWH to bless you as you bless others in His name?

Just curious, do you claim your charity at tax time? Some think they are double dipping, but I don't see why the government should have a right to a financial transaction from a religious tithe or religious charity. That transaction is between God and I. The double dipping argument seems to question the motive and intent of the giver and establishes the government's jurisdiction.

 

Lastly, tithes and charity are different. The tithe should be made cheerfully, and so should charity which I think is beyond the tithe. 

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On ‎10‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 4:03 PM, talker777 said:

Hello Everyone,

   I am a graduate student in theology at Huntsville Bible College in Huntsville, Alabama. I am doing research concerning the Church and money. Not the money after it has been given and what it is used for but before in comes in. In my research I have asked people from numerous denominations how they feel about tithing and giving and have received many different responses. Questions like do you give or tithe? If so, is it by a percentage or a dollar amount? How do you feel about special offerings like those often called for at Christmas or Easter? How do you feel about giving for benevolence and should it be for Church members only or for whoever might have the need? How do you feel about mission giving and which would you support more readily, domestic missions or overseas missions? 

 

   I understand that both Church and money can be sensitive subjects and putting them together can create, at times, conflicts. I am not looking for that. I am merely seeking thoughts and opinions to further my studies. Each gives or doesn't give as they feel led in their heart so there are no pat answers here nor judgments.  

 

   My work and research will eventually end up as a thesis paper (I hope and pray) and be used for a better understanding of giving and why some do and others don't. 

 

   I would really appreciate your thoughts and comments. Thanks greatly...Bill

There aren't any requirements that obligate us to tithe ten percent of our earnings and give it to the church. Now we can be comfortable with giving from the heart and giving as we prosper .

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7 hours ago, talker777 said:

Some quote Old Testament while others the New Testament.

Matthew 25:31-46 requires the ordinary faithful believers to financially support the brethren of Christ = apostles, pastors, evangelists, missionaries, workers, etc = feed, clothe them  and visit them when they are sick or in prison = a tithe of about 2%.

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@talker777 Some questions for you :classic_smile:

Define 'church'

Example;  the local building .. the Salvation army... any of the big organisations... Baptist .. Reform ... Pentecostal  ..etc

For many 'shut ins' TV is important. 

for me the internet ... This site costs a few thousand a year to run, staff is volunteer. 

Your thread here has challenged me. 

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16 hours ago, William said:

Just curious, do you claim your charity at tax time? Some think they are double dipping, but I don't see why the government should have a right to a financial transaction from a religious tithe or religious charity. That transaction is between God and I. The double dipping argument seems to question the motive and intent of the giver and establishes the government's jurisdiction.

 

Lastly, tithes and charity are different. The tithe should be made cheerfully, and so should charity which I think is beyond the tithe. 

No, we trash the 1099 the Church is required to supply for Donating Members.  We do not fee bound to donate, rather we feel Blessed of YHWH to have the Loose Funds to either Stock Pile or to Invest in Our Future, on Earth or in Heaven and freely, we choose to give to the Works of YHWH.

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Just now, Bill Taylor said:

No, we trash the 1099 the Church is required to supply for Donating Members.  We do not fee bound to donate, rather we feel Blessed of YHWH to have the Loose Funds to either Stock Pile or to Invest in Our Future, on Earth or in Heaven and freely, we choose to give to the Works of YHWH.

My old friend Bill, may i suggest you use the 1099, figure the difference in the return and then have that amount to give to God . Instead of giving those funds to this government. 

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Hello,

   Becky, I will try to answer some of your questions and perhaps some other's as well. I would, by my thoughts and feelings, "define" the Church as those that confess Jesus Christ as Saviour. That would be outside the realm of buildings and organizations. (Please also note that when I refer to the body of believers I use a capital "C" for Church but when I refer to the location the we meet and call a church I use a small case "c", church. I do that, at least for me, to place a greater emphasis on the body than a building.) The gospel can be found virtually anywhere if one only thirsts to hear it and looks for it. Yes, it can be in a building, or on TV, in the mall talking to someone, on the internet from a web page or a site, alone in the woods or by the seashore, and many other places  Even though I serve in a denominational church I consider myself only as Christian. I do not use the name of the denomination to describe what I am such as "I'm a Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Charismatic,Nondenominational, Catholic, Protestant", or whatever else one may be referred to. I am simply Christian. However, believers usually meet in a location that has a building, utilities, expenses, salaries, materials, outreach, charity, benevolence, and other functions. It is no secret nor surprise that those things require funding. That is not unlike our own homes. We require funds to run our households what is different about the church? We each give or don't give as we feel led. As God blesses, we should respond. There is no guarantee of return to what we give and that is not why we should give. We give with out any expectation of return. As comes to me when I see a penny and pick it up and have the thought..."Wouldn't it be great if this was a $20 or a $50 instead of a penny." The still small voice within me says "If you had the need, it would be." I then ask for forgiveness and rejoice of the penny. Giving seem to bring so many conflicts and abuses. But we can remember, all that we have was given to us by God in one way or another but He is the authour still. At least that is how I see it.

 

   Again, all your answers, comments, and questions are wonderful. Forgive my rambling above but I was merely trying to share with you all some thoughts...Bill     

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Thank you! @talker777 well said. 

 

Quote

We give with out any expectation of return. 

Amen. 

 

In reading about  - tithes- and offerings , my personal opinion is should tithe.  Tithes as i understand it is a tenth of ones increase. There is also offerings. Also doing what one can for the needy. That might be serving/sharing food etc.   

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1 hour ago, Becky said:

Thank you! @talker777 well said. 

 

Amen. 

 

In reading about  - tithes- and offerings , my personal opinion is should tithe.  Tithes as i understand it is a tenth of ones increase. There is also offerings. Also doing what one can for the needy. That might be serving/sharing food etc.   

Tithes were, in my view from Law. Would it be unlawful for one to not only tithe more than 10% but for Priest(s) to require more than 10%?

 

Whatever arguments one may make about Law can be applied to the Gospel with emphasis on requirements vs duties.

 

This is one of the differences between Law and Gospel. I don't think we are required to give by Law a 10% tithe. We are no longer limited to 10% but each may give accordingly and cheerfully.

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23 hours ago, Becky said:

Thank you! @talker777 well said. 

 

Amen. 

 

In reading about  - tithes- and offerings , my personal opinion is should tithe.  Tithes as i understand it is a tenth of ones increase. There is also offerings. Also doing what one can for the needy. That might be serving/sharing food etc.   

I believe the key word in all of this is found in this quote and that is..."...in my personal opinionshould tithe..." with an emphasis on the "I". That is the crux of the whole matter. It must be a personal matter and I would think that it would be between the individual and God. No one nor any organization can tell you that you must give/tithe/make an offering or whatever. To be told you must give makes it more like a tax than a voluntary action. Yes, my wife and I tithe as we call it. We figure it from 10% of net income. In the rare event we get an income tax refund we then tithe on that. As a matter of fact we tithe on whatever comes into our home by any means while at the same time realizing that giving is not just money but time and energy as well. We try to give a tithe of all that we are. But for the sake of this discussion I have been only concerned with financial giving.

 

   I so appreciate all that you have added and please continue to do so if you have more to add. This has been and is wonderful...Bill

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Love should be the motivation for both the tither and tithee or giver and receiver. There should be no financial neglect of the receiver and no financial burden placed on the giver.

 

The cost of raising a child until 17 is about US$230,000, ie excluding cost of college. A family man needs to also provide for or manage both his and his wife's retirement = cost about US$500,000 per retiree, ie should have this amount at 65 years old - to last for the next 30 years.

 

The average salary of a college graduate = pastor is about US$50,000 per year = about US$4,000 per month.

 

Let's say, a church has 100 members whose average salary is $2,000 per month. Based on a 10% tithe, the collected sum of tithes will be $20,000 per month. Is that too much or too little.?

....... Imagine a church with 500 members.!

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