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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
Truth7t7

Jesus Christ Return's In Fire "The End"!

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28 minutes ago, discipler77 said:

.

Psalm 90:4 = 4 For a thousand years in Your sight are like yesterday when it is past, and like a watch in the night.

 

This is literal. It literally says that in God's sight or eyes, a thousand years is like one day or a watch in the night or yesterday.

 

What do you mean by 'God is out side of time'.?

The above is saying it is figurative. 

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1 hour ago, discipler77 said:

.

Psalm 90:4 = 4 For a thousand years in Your sight are like yesterday when it is past, and like a watch in the night.

 

This is literal. It literally says that in God's sight or eyes, a thousand years is like one day or a watch in the night or yesterday.

 

What do you mean by 'God is out side of time'.?

God transcends time.  It is implicit in the verses which state a thousand years is like one day to the Lord.

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19 minutes ago, CDF47 said:

God transcends time.  It is implicit in the verses which state a thousand years is like one day to the Lord.

.

Does your statement about God transcending time and "a thousand years is like one day to the Lord" (2Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90:4) point to "a thousand years" literally meaning "a thousand years" or point to "a thousand years" figuratively/symbolically/non-literally not meaning "a thousand years" but meaning "0 years" or "non-existence in time", since @Truth7t7 has stated that there is no 1,000 years Millennial kingdom or it does not exist.?

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4 minutes ago, discipler77 said:

.

Does your statement about God transcending time and "a thousand years is like one day to the Lord" (2Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90:4) point to "a thousand years" literally meaning "a thousand years" or point to "a thousand years" figuratively/symbolically/non-literally not meaning "a thousand years" but meaning "0 years" or "non-existence in time", since @Truth7t7 has stated that there is no 1,000 years Millennial kingdom or it does not exist.?

It is figuratively speaking of course.  It implies God as the Creator of the universe transcends the time of this universe.  The Lord knows all of time, including the future inside this universe. 

Edited by CDF47

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1 hour ago, Becky said:

 

The above is saying it is figurative. 

Does the "a thousand years" mentioned in verses 2Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90:4, mean a thousand years(= literal), or mean something else(= figurative) like '0 years' or 'non-existence in time' since @Truth7t7 has stated that the 1,000 years Millennial kingdom does not exist or there is no such 1,000 years kingdom.?

.

5 minutes ago, CDF47 said:

It is figuratively speaking of course.  It implies God as the Creator of the universe transcends the time of this universe.  The Lord knows all of time, including the future inside this universe. 

So, you agree with @Truth7t7 that there is no 1,000 years Millennial kingdom.?

Edited by discipler77
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51 minutes ago, discipler77 said:

So, you agree with @Truth7t7 that there is no 1,000 years Millennial kingdom.?

I was away, had to fix dinner ad a couple other chores.. :classic_smile:

 

I see you are asking CDF47 but here is my take .

I do not agree that the word 1000 is meant literally. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, CDF47 said:

God transcends time.  It is implicit in the verses which state a thousand years is like one day to the Lord.

 

1 hour ago, discipler77 said:

.

Does your statement about God transcending time and "a thousand years is like one day to the Lord" (2Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90:4) point to "a thousand years" literally meaning "a thousand years" or point to "a thousand years" figuratively/symbolically/non-literally not meaning "a thousand years" but meaning "0 years" or "non-existence in time", since @Truth7t7 has stated that there is no 1,000 years Millennial kingdom or it does not exist.?

Both of you are rejecting context:

 

4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

 

8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,1 not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

 

The length of time in relation to God's promises are being contrasted and addressed, and this has nothing to do with the days of creation or a theory of relativity. If anything the length of days in context suggests a "time of completion" or what is symbolically understood as 1000 years.

 

Furthermore, both of you reject the genre in which Revelation is to be read and haven't considered how dreams or visions were approached in the Old Testament.

 

Both of you are now refuted and need to hand this verse over to the other camp.

 

God bless,

William

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2 hours ago, discipler77 said:

Does the "a thousand years" mentioned in verses 2Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90:4, mean a thousand years(= literal), or mean something else(= figurative) like '0 years' or 'non-existence in time' since @Truth7t7 has stated that the 1,000 years Millennial kingdom does not exist or there is no such 1,000 years kingdom.?

.

So, you agree with @Truth7t7 that there is no 1,000 years Millennial kingdom.?

I believe that the 1,000 years is a symbolic number.  I do not believe the Lord will reign on Earth upon His return.  I believe the Lord will gather His people and destroy the entire universe upon His return.

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1 hour ago, William said:

 

Both of you are rejecting context:

 

4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

 

8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,1 not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

 

The length of time in relation to God's promises are being contrasted and addressed, and this has nothing to do with the days of creation or a theory of relativity. If anything the length of days in context suggests a "time of completion" or what is symbolically understood as 1000 years.

 

Furthermore, both of you reject the genre in which Revelation is to be read and haven't considered how dreams or visions were approached in the Old Testament.

 

Both of you are now refuted and need to hand this verse over to the other camp.

 

God bless,

William

I agree with the context you have laid out; however, I also believe that the two times this statement is used in Peter and Psalms, implicitly holds that the Lord transcends time.

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My comfort is in Acts 1:10-11;

10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,

11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

 

What a glorious hope we have.

Edited by Silas
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8 hours ago, discipler77 said:

Matthew 25:31-46KJV
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: ...

 

REVELATION.20:11-12 (NKJV) = The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life.

 

Matthew 25:31 was referring to Revelation 20:11, ie the Great White throne of Lord/God Jesus Christ and Judgment Day, which will happen at the end of the 1,000 year Millennial kingdom on a new earth.

.

 

There is also no "mark of the beast" or 666 and the Harlot of Babylon hidden between verse 23-24 above.

I fully agree that Matthew 25:31-46 & Revelation 20:11-12 are the same event of the Great White Throne Judgment.

 

You continue to throw "Thousand" into the scenario, and you create a kingdom not seen with your words.

 

You disregard the complete reading of Matthew 25, when Jesus Christ "Returns" with the angels?

 

He hasn't been sitting upon a throne for a thousand years and then judgment, Jesus Christ is "Returning"

 

How is Jesus Christ going to "Come" with the angels, if he's sitting on your created throne for 1000 years?

 

You disregard the fact that when Jesus Christ returns, the final judgment takes place, "The End"

 

You disregard 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, the resurrection of the believer takes place, "Then Cometh The End"?

 

You clearly see that your eschatology is flawed.


Matthew 25:31-46KJV
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Edited by Truth7t7

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5 hours ago, CDF47 said:

I agree with the context you have laid out; however, I also believe that the two times this statement is used in Peter and Psalms, implicitly holds that the Lord transcends time.

Of course God is eternal and from a temporal perspective His promises may not be fulfilled in our lifetime. And though God is eternal Jesus Christ aged and experienced death upon the earth. The context with respect to the audience (the beloved) are receiving God's empathy (because He experienced age and death) as the Spirit comforts and explains why the perceived delay in God fulfilling His promises. The purpose of the delay is clearly stated in the context, and the delay or age will continue until completion when the Elect are brought into repentance.

 

Too many times have I noted 2 Peter 3:8 ripped from context in order to support all kinds of unbiblical notions which even go so far as to discredit the literal days of the creation narrative/record. 

 

God bless,

William

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50 minutes ago, William said:

Of course God is eternal and from a temporal perspective His promises may not be fulfilled in our lifetime. And though God is eternal Jesus Christ aged and experienced death upon the earth. The context with respect to the audience (the beloved) are receiving God's empathy (because He experienced age and death) as the Spirit comforts and explains why the perceived delay in God fulfilling His promises. The purpose of the delay is clearly stated in the context, and the delay or age will continue until completion when the Elect are brought into repentance.

 

Too many times have I noted 2 Peter 3:8 ripped from context in order to support all kinds of unbiblical notions which even go so far as to discredit the literal days of the creation narrative/record. 

 

God bless,

William

I agree, you make the context really clear.  I think we are on the same page. 

 

Regarding the literal days of creation, that is a whole other discussion.  I believe God spent 7 literal days creating the universe but I also believe eons were going by inside the universe as a He created it.  He built the universe from nothing starting with the big bang.  Hawking determined that space in the beginning had infinite curvature, meaning there was no space or time at the moment of creation.  How much matter fits in zero space, zero matter or energy.  The Lord literally created the universe from nothing.  

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7 hours ago, Silas said:

My comfort is in Acts 1:10-11;

10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,

11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

 

What a glorious hope we have.

Either way (de-scension or ascension and back again),

Soli Deo Gloria!

 

God bless,

William

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8 hours ago, CDF47 said:

I believe that the 1,000 years is a symbolic number.  I do not believe the Lord will reign on Earth upon His return.  I believe the Lord will gather His people and destroy the entire universe upon His return.

 

10 hours ago, Becky said:

I do not agree that the word 1000 is meant literally. 

So, what does the "thousand years" in Revelation 20:1-10 symbolize or figuratively mean.? ...

 

REVELATION.20:1-15 = Satan Bound 1,000 Years

20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

 

The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

 

Satanic Rebellion Crushed

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

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1 hour ago, CDF47 said:

Regarding the literal days of creation, that is a whole other discussion.

No, it can be made into the same discussion as the "literal" 1000 years Millennial kingdom on a new earth.

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The simple answer for me is a period of time .

Strong's says this for the word thousand

Rev 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 
 

 

G5507
χίλιοι
chilioi
khil'-ee-oy
Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand: - thousand.
 

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8 hours ago, CDF47 said:

I believe that the 1,000 years is a symbolic number.  I do not believe the Lord will reign on Earth upon His return.  I believe the Lord will gather His people and destroy the entire universe upon His return.

Why would the Lord/God Jesus Christ destroy the entire universe upon His return.? Did the entire universe sinned or rebelled against Him.?

 

Only Satan and his demons have rebelled(= were cast down to earth) and earthly Adam had sinned against God.

 

I believe God/Jesus will return to earth to destroy only the earth and all the unbelievers left on it, as per Revelation 6 & 7, ie just after all the remaining and living believers have been raptured from the earth into the clouds by Jesus, as per 1Thessalonians 4:16-17.

....... Thereafter, He will create a new earth for His raptured and resurrected believers, to begin a new 1000 years Millennial kingdom on the new earth that will be void of Satan+demons and unbelievers.

Edited by discipler77
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5 minutes ago, Becky said:

The simple answer for me is a period of time .

So, in your sight/eyes, there will be "a period of time" kingdom on a new earth, instead of "a 1000 years" kingdom, after the return of Jesus Christ to earth.?

Any idea how long is the "a period of time" in your eyes/sight.?

 

In contrast, @Truth7t7 stated that there will be no 1000 years kingdom on a new earth, ie "a thousand years" mean "zero period of time" or "not existing in time". IOW, it's immediately straight to the kingdom of heaven after the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ to earth or after the Rapture and resurrection of believers.

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37 minutes ago, Becky said:

The simple answer for me is a period of time . 

Strong's says this for the word thousand

Rev 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 
 

 

G5507
χίλιοι
chilioi
khil'-ee-oy
Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand: - thousand.
 

Yes, but we are debating about the meaning of "thousand years", not just "thousand".

 

So, your simple answer for "a thousand years" can figuratively mean "a period of time in years".

Edited by discipler77
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1 hour ago, discipler77 said:

So, in your sight/eyes, there will be "a period of time" kingdom on a new earth, instead of "a 1000 years" kingdom, after the return of Jesus Christ to earth.?

Any idea how long is the "a period of time" in your eyes/sight.?

 

In contrast, @Truth7t7 stated that there will be no 1000 years kingdom on a new earth, ie "a thousand years" mean "zero period of time" or "not existing in time". IOW, it's immediately straight to the kingdom of heaven after the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ to earth or after the Rapture and resurrection of believers.

Thats correct, at the return of Jesus Christ in literal fire, the resurrection of all and final judgment takes place, as the eternal kingdom is revealed in the twinklling of an eye.

 

The word "Thousand" 2,000 years ago was a huge number, today it could be "Zillion" 

 

The reign seen in Revelation 20:1-6 is taking place currently in the "Spiritual" realm, if a tribulation saint dies one week before the second advent, he enters the figurative 1000 year reign.

 

Once again, when you read those verses its 100% spiritual, there is no physical humans or kingdom seen. 

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6 hours ago, discipler77 said:

So, in your sight/eyes, there will be "a period of time" kingdom on a new earth, instead of "a 1000 years" kingdom, after the return of Jesus Christ to earth.?

Any idea how long is the "a period of time" in your eyes/sight.?

 

In contrast, @Truth7t7 stated that there will be no 1000 years kingdom on a new earth, ie "a thousand years" mean "zero period of time" or "not existing in time". IOW, it's immediately straight to the kingdom of heaven after the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ to earth or after the Rapture and resurrection of believers.

No . You are adding much to my words .

 

5 hours ago, discipler77 said:

Yes, but we are debating about the meaning of "thousand years", not just "thousand".

 

So, your simple answer for "a thousand years" can figuratively mean "a period of time in years".

No, i am debating the understanding of the word 'thousand.' Back to who owns the cattle on hill number 1001?

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8 hours ago, discipler77 said:

 

So, what does the "thousand years" in Revelation 20:1-10 symbolize or figuratively mean.? ...

 

REVELATION.20:1-15 = Satan Bound 1,000 Years

20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

 

The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

 

Satanic Rebellion Crushed

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

I believe the thousand years is the gospel going out to the four corners of the Earth binding Satan which we are currently living in.

8 hours ago, discipler77 said:

No, it can be made into the same discussion as the "literal" 1000 years Millennial kingdom on a new earth.

What do you mean by new earth?  Do you believe the Lord is going to place us somewhere new for a 1000 years and then Satan will attack again?

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7 hours ago, discipler77 said:

Why would the Lord/God Jesus Christ destroy the entire universe upon His return.? Did the entire universe sinned or rebelled against Him.?

 

Only Satan and his demons have rebelled(= were cast down to earth) and earthly Adam had sinned against God.

 

I believe God/Jesus will return to earth to destroy only the earth and all the unbelievers left on it, as per Revelation 6 & 7, ie just after all the remaining and living believers have been raptured from the earth into the clouds by Jesus, as per 1Thessalonians 4:16-17.

....... Thereafter, He will create a new earth for His raptured and resurrected believers, to begin a new 1000 years Millennial kingdom on the new earth that will be void of Satan+demons and unbelievers.

I believe He will destroy the entire universe based on the Scriptures.  I highly recommend reading the article below regarding the destruction of the universe based on Scripture:

 

WWW.WORDEXPLAIN.COM

The catastrophic and fiery destruction of the present heavens and earth.

 

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Staff

 

Removed the post it read too argumentative, when that was not the intent . 

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