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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
Anto9us

Since Paul fell off his horse

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To my knowledge, there are four separate accounts of Paul's Road to Damascus conversion experience, 3 in Acts, 1 in Galatians.

 

None mention Paul riding/falling from a horse.

 

Yet commentators, no less than Calvin himself, mention Paul falling from a horse -- it must not have just "come from nowhere" if a commentator the calibre of Calvin says this -- but I do not know of a specific tradition that has Paul on horseback on the Dmascus trip.

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4 minutes ago, Anto9us said:

To my knowledge, there are four separate accounts of Paul's Road to Damascus conversion experience, 3 in Acts, 1 in Galatians.

 

None mention Paul riding/falling from a horse.

 

Yet commentators, no less than Calvin himself, mention Paul falling from a horse -- it must not have just "come from nowhere" if a commentator the calibre of Calvin says this -- but I do not know of a specific tradition that has Paul on horseback on the Dmascus trip.

Infer much?

 

Act 9:3  Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him.
Act 9:4  And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?"
Act 9:5  And he said, "Who are you, Lord?" And he said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
Act 9:6  But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do."
Act 9:7  The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one.
Act 9:8  Saul rose from the ground, and although his eyes were opened, he saw nothing. So they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus.

 

Here's Calvin' commentary on verse 9:4:

And therefore Luke saith that he fell to the ground. For what other thing can befall man, but that he must lie prostrate and be, as it were, brought to nothing, when he is overwhelmed with the present feeling of God’s glory? And this was the first beginning of the bringing down of Paul, that he might become apt to hear the voice of Christ, which he had despised so long as he sat haughtily upon his horse.


Saul, Saul! Luke compared the light which shined round about Paul to lightning, though I do not doubt but that lightnings did fly in the air. And this voice, which Christ did send out to beat down his pride, may full well be called a lightning orthunderbolt, because it did not only strike him, and make him astonished, but did quite kill him, so that he was now as nobody with himself, who did so much please himself before and did challenge to himself authority to put the gospel to flight. Luke putteth down his name in Hebrew in this place, Saul, Saul! because he repeateth the words of Christ, who spake unto him, undoubtedly, according to the common custom of the country.

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sure it says Paul FELL DOWN, but falling from a walking position and FALLING FROM A HORSE are two different things.

 

Note that the men with him "stood speechless" -- not sat speechless on horses

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Just now, Anto9us said:

sure it says Paul FELL DOWN, but falling from a walking position and FALLING FROM A HORSE are two different things.

 

Note that the men with him "stood speechless" -- not sat speechless on horses

You stated,

7 minutes ago, Anto9us said:

Yet commentators, no less than Calvin himself, mention Paul falling from a horse -- it must not have just "come from nowhere" if a commentator the calibre of Calvin says this -- but I do not know of a specific tradition that has Paul on horseback on the Dmascus trip.

Can you provide the reference to Calvin's commentary?

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I will try, William, to get that reference to Calvin's commentary where he said "Paul fell off his horse in fear"

 

it was online, so if I saw it once, I can find it again; will try commentaries on Acts and/or Galatians

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7 minutes ago, Anto9us said:

sure it says Paul FELL DOWN, but falling from a walking position and FALLING FROM A HORSE are two different things.

 

Note that the men with him "stood speechless" -- not sat speechless on horses 

Acts 26:13-14

13 At midday, O king, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, that shone around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

 

 

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yeah, all of 'em FELL DOWN -- men falling from a standing position could stand up again without injuries, falling form a horse might involve injuries

 

I do not know why I am so obsessed about this -- it is part of the "discrepancies of parallel accounts" deal -- for some account says men travelling with Paul saw a light but did not hear a voice, another account says opposite

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CHRISTIANITY.STACKEXCHANGE.COM

Many people (especially Catholics; I don't know about others, but some say that Protestants usually don't believe this) think that Saul/Paul fell from a horse at the moment of his conversion...

 

"The conversion of Saul falling off a horse appears in medieval art.

Caravaggio about 1600

Michaelangelo about 1550

Jean Fouquet about 1450

In literature, John Calvin about 1550 had this to say about Saul falling from his horse.

In the night-season there appear oftentimes lightnings, which come of the hot exhalations of the earth; but this was more strange, that about noon a sudden light did not only appear, but did also compass him about like a lightning, so that through fear thereof he fell from his horse, and lay prostrate upon the ground. Calvin

 

And therefore Luke saith that he fell to the ground. For what other thing can befall man, but that he must lie prostrate and be, as it were, brought to nothing, when he is overwhelmed with the present feeling of God’s glory? And this was the first beginning of the bringing down of Paul, that he might become apt to hear the voice of Christ, which he had despised so long as he sat haughtily upon his horse. Calvin

 

The actual source for these references is yet to be determined, but the history must predate 1450."

 

I personally debunked a theory about certain Greek genitives with AKOUOW -- - wherein a scheme of "companions heard the sound but did not understand the meaning" was used to reconcile discrepancies about "heard the voice" "did not hear the voice"

 

I know the Calvin references are second-hand, maybe that was best I got at the time

 

There are obviously more stories/traditions than we have today, if medieval painters pictured Paul falling from a horse, of course, we have many medieval paintings of Magi at the Manger, when we know from Scripture that Magi encountered baby/toddler Jesus IN A HOUSE, not at the manger, but later

 

 

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On 10/10/2018 at 3:38 PM, Anto9us said:

yeah, all of 'em FELL DOWN -- men falling from a standing position could stand up again without injuries, falling form a horse might involve injuries

 

I do not know why I am so obsessed about this -- it is part of the "discrepancies of parallel accounts" deal -- for some account says men travelling with Paul saw a light but did not hear a voice, another account says opposite

Infer much?

 

Seems we either infer or only limit ourselves to what is plainly stated. If we don't reason then we seem to have a discrepancy in the Scriptures. If we infer is it reasonable to think that everyone had fallen and then the others first stood up? Since we are inferring why is it not reasonable to think that Paul and this group traveling over a hundred miles from Jerusalem to Damascus are on horseback? Which is more plausible, that they walked 100+ miles in pursuit of Christians or that they rode after them or journeyed on horseback?

 

Just curious, I can definitely understand why there may be different views which I think are to do with the principles and methods in our approach to the Scriptures.

 

God bless,

William

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I am a stickler for "don't try to make the Bible say MORE than it says"

 

Paul travelled many many miles on various journeys.  Yes, we could INFER that he was on a horse sometimes.

 

Yet the Bible never says so.

 

 

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On 10/10/2018 at 3:52 PM, Anto9us said:

I am a stickler for "don't try to make the Bible say MORE than it says"

 

Paul travelled many many miles on various journeys.  Yes, we could INFER that he was on a horse sometimes.

 

Yet the Bible never says so.

 

 

Yup, lots of the various camps in theology differ because of the methods and principles they use when approaching Scripture.

 

God bless,

William

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15 hours ago, Anto9us said:

 

I do not know why I am so obsessed about this -- it is part of the "discrepancies of parallel accounts" deal -- for some account says men travelling with Paul saw a light but did not hear a voice, another account says opposite

Acts 9:7 says, "The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one."

Acts 22:9 says, "Now those who were with me saw the light but did not understand the voice of the one who was speaking to me."

The King James translation uses the word hear instead of understand in the second account.  That explains why many think there is a contradiction.

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3 hours ago, theophilus said:

Acts 9:7 says, "The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one."

Acts 22:9 says, "Now those who were with me saw the light but did not understand the voice of the one who was speaking to me."

The King James translation uses the word hear instead of understand in the second account.  That explains why many think there is a contradiction.

Infer much? Why could those around Paul hear but not understand the voice? Were the others accompanying Paul not able to understand Hebrew?

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On ‎10‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 5:19 PM, Anto9us said:

To my knowledge, there are four separate accounts of Paul's Road to Damascus conversion experience, 3 in Acts, 1 in Galatians.

 

None mention Paul riding/falling from a horse.

 

Yet commentators, no less than Calvin himself, mention Paul falling from a horse -- it must not have just "come from nowhere" if a commentator the calibre of Calvin says this -- but I do not know of a specific tradition that has Paul on horseback on the Dmascus trip.

Neither does it mention his mode of transportation other than walking , in the book of Acts. Or a plain " We traveled."

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I'll never know for sure in this life; I'm just inquisitive.  I wanna KNOW; I wanna know what the seven thunders said that John was told not to write down.

Someday I will, and can ask Calvin where he got the bit about the horse.

Edited by Anto9us
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43 minutes ago, Anto9us said:

Someday I will, and can ask Calvin where he got the bit about the horse.

Infer much?

 

What makes you think either Calvin or you may be in the same place? Likewise, do you think there are any horses in heaven? If so, how did they get there?

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 Rom 8:24

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

 

So I HOPE Calvin and I will be in the same place!

 

I hear all dogs go to heaven, but I don't know about horses.

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9 minutes ago, Anto9us said:

 Rom 8:24

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

 

So I HOPE Calvin and I will be in the same place!

 

I hear all dogs go to heaven, but I don't know about horses.

Revelation 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

 

Regarding horses, Revelation 6:1-2  Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer.

 

I was curious as to whether you wanted to know equally as much how they got there.

 

:classic_ninja:

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"outside are the dogs"

 

OK I am flip-flopping -- no dogs in heaven -- "All Dogs Go to Heaven " is an unbiblical movie.

 

as for horses -- 

 

 Rev 19:11

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

 

So BEHOLD -- at least FIVE horses in heaven -- this one Jesus is on in ch 19,  and 4 horsemen of Apocalypse

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I remember the younger-looking Phil Keaggy -- is it possible I TOO am that old now ?

 

Naah

 

In mid-70's Phil Keaggy and Love Song came to Miller Chapel at Baylor University -- when all equipment was packed away, Keaggy came back with just accoustic guitar and sat next to me in a pew and played and witnessed for 45 minutes. Never knew such things could be done with a guitar.

 

And there was that poem of C S Lewis that he put to music...

 

 

 

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20 hours ago, Anto9us said:

 

So BEHOLD -- at least FIVE horses in heaven -- this one Jesus is on in ch 19,  and 4 horsemen of Apocalypse

There are more than five. 

 

"And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses."

Revelation 19:14

 

There are enough for a whole army.

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And i always thought is was a donkey .. :classic_ohmy:

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whole armies of horses, that's right.

 

Jesus rode on a donkey on earth, or a colt or something, while people said Hosannah

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Anto9us said:

whole armies of horses, that's right.

 

Jesus rode on a donkey on earth, or a colt or something, while people said Hosannah

 

 

Wasn't that the point Calvin made? 

 

There's a reason why Jesus rode the donkey, was the reason only to act out a prophecy? Calvin depicted Saul sitting on a high horse, haughtily, that contrasts Jesus. 

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