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Innerfire89

No one can snatch them from my hand.

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John 10:28-30

28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.29My Father, who has given them to me,a is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

 

This should be proff enough that salvation can not be lost. But someone will usually come up with the argument that you can walk out of His hand. Walk out because of what? What does it mean to be snatched out of His hand to begin with.

 

In the verses just before Jesus explained how His sheep hear His voice and follow Him, how they won't follow another, and how He gives them eternal life. 

 

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber.2But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.4When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.

 

So how would one snatch His sheep out of His hand?  We hear his voice and follow equates to being in his hand, so to hear the voice of a stranger and follow would therefore equate being snatched. Being snatched is being deceived into walking away from Christ, which will never happen.

Non-sheep, the non-elect are snatched and don't  even know his voice. 

 

Stay strong in Christ and be blessed.

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A Shepard that has a sheep the is constantly having to being rescued, because it refuses to stay with the flock, will brake to leg of that sheep to assure it won't wander. According to A SHEPARD LOOKS AT THE 23 PSALM.

 

This has often crossed my mind, that God too will do things to keep a Follower from wandering.. 

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John 10:28 is too often pulled from its context and made to say that it is impossible for the Christian to be lost.

 

John 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

 

This verse by itself, removed from all other Bible contexts, does not tell us much for this verse by itself does not tell us who the pronouns "them" and "they" refer to.  Therefore this verse must be put back into its context with verse 27 for verses 27 and 28 are one complete thought with verse 27 telling us who the "them" and "they" of verse 28 are.

 

There are two sides to the coin of salvation and both sides are found in John 10:27-28:

 

1) a required faithfulness, stedfastness on part of the Christian, Rev 2:10; Heb 3:14; etc.

2) God's faithfulness to those who are in the group called Christian, Heb 13:5

 

verse 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

verse 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

The 'them' and 'they' of verse 28 are Christ's sheep. 

 

Who are the ones that qualify as Christ's sheep?  The ones that conditionally continue to hear and follow Christ.  Both verbs 'hear' and 'follow' are in the present tense denoting a current ongoing action.

 

Therefore we have both sides of the salvation equation:

1) those that are faithful and stedfast in their hearing and following Christ

2) are the ones God is faithful to and will not allow them to perish or be plucked from his hand.

 

Those that are NOT faithful and stedfast and quit hearing and following Christ are disqualified from being Christ sheep and no longer of the "them" and "they" of verse 28.

 

So God does not UNCONDITIONALLY save the Christian regardless of what the Christian does, God CONDITIONALLY saves those that remain faithful to Christ in continuing to hear and follow Him.

 

================

 

Phil 1:5 "For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;"

Phil 1:6 "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"

 

Paul says of those Christians in Philippi that they had remained faithful in their 'fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now'.  In other words, those Philippian Christians continued to hear and follow Christ per John 10:27.  In turn, God would be faithful to continue that good work in them until the day of Christ. Again, we have both sides of the salvation equation: 1) faithfulness to Christ and His gospel on part of the Christians in Philippi and God's faithfulness to those who remained faithful to Christ.

 

 

===============

 

Do we have an example of those who did NOT remain faithful to Christ and His gospel, that did NOT continue to hear and follow Christ?  Yes, Galatians 1:6-7; Galatians 3:1

 

Yet nowhere at all do we find where Paul said of those Galatian Christians who allowed themselves to be led astray by false, Judiaizing teacher back to the law of Moses that God would continue that good work in them, that they shall never perish.  Instead, Paul told them that had fallen (past tense) from grace Gal 5:4; they were making Christ's death be in vain, Gal 2:21; and afraid his labor with them had been in vain and he had become their enemy, Gal 4:11,16.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by seabass

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2 hours ago, seabass said:

John 10:28 is too often pulled from its context and made to say that it is impossible for the Christian to be lost.

 

John 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

 

This verse by itself, removed from all other Bible contexts, does not tell us much for this verse by itself does not tell us who the pronouns "them" and "they" refer to.  Therefore this verse must be put back into its context with verse 27 for verses 27 and 28 are one complete thought with verse 27 telling us who the "them" and "they" of verse 28 are.

 

There are two sides to the coin of salvation and both sides are found in John 10:27-28:

 

1) a required faithfulness, stedfastness on part of the Christian, Rev 2:10; Heb 3:14; etc.

2) God's faithfulness to those who are in the group called Christian, Heb 13:5

 

verse 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

verse 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

The 'them' and 'they' of verse 28 are Christ's sheep. 

 

Who are the ones that qualify as Christ's sheep?  The ones that conditionally continue to hear and follow Christ.  Both verbs 'hear' and 'follow' are in the present tense denoting a current ongoing action.

 

Therefore we have both sides of the salvation equation:

1) those that are faithful and stedfast in their hearing and following Christ

2) are the ones God is faithful to and will not allow them to perish or be plucked from his hand.

 

Those that are NOT faithful and stedfast and quit hearing and following Christ are disqualified from being Christ sheep and no longer of the "them" and "they" of verse 28.

 

So God does not UNCONDITIONALLY save the Christian regardless of what the Christian does, God CONDITIONALLY saves those that remain faithful to Christ in continuing to hear and follow Him.

 

================

 

Phil 1:5 "For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;"

Phil 1:6 "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"

 

Paul says of those Christians in Philippi that they had remained faithful in their 'fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now'.  In other words, those Philippian Christians continued to hear and follow Christ per John 10:27.  In turn, God would be faithful to continue that good work in them until the day of Christ. Again, we have both sides of the salvation equation: 1) faithfulness to Christ and His gospel on part of the Christians in Philippi and God's faithfulness to those who remained faithful to Christ.

 

 

===============

 

Do we have an example of those who did NOT remain faithful to Christ and His gospel, that did NOT continue to hear and follow Christ?  Yes, Galatians 1:6-7; Galatians 3:1

 

Yet nowhere at all do we find where Paul said of those Galatian Christians who allowed themselves to be led astray by false, Judiaizing teacher back to the law of Moses that God would continue that good work in them, that they shall never perish.  Instead, Paul told them that had fallen (past tense) from grace Gal 5:4; they were making Christ's death be in vain, Gal 2:21; and afraid his labor with them had been in vain and he had become their enemy, Gal 4:11,16.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Galatians didn't loose thier salvation, they fell from the teaching of grace, not fallen away from the grace of God.

 

Let's get back on track here, what does it mean to be snatched out of Christ hand?

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2 hours ago, Just Mike said:

A Shepard that has a sheep the is constantly having to being rescued, because it refuses to stay with the flock, will brake to leg of that sheep to assure it won't wander. According to A SHEPARD LOOKS AT THE 23 PSALM.

 

This has often crossed my mind, that God too will do things to keep a Follower from wandering.. 

I also think of how king David fought off lions and bears and slew Goliath. And how Jesus talk about how a shepherd goes out to find his one lost sheep.

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Good job in your original post, innerfire.

 

Do you think that a lot of confusion occurs when someone thinks of the life of a "convert" as a synonymous term as the life of a born again Christian convert? From an outside perspective, consider what some may observe - a group of people all engaged in Christian activity, all professing belief, leading a bible study etc. But later in adult life some denounce the faith and no longer continue to the end. Doesn't Hebrews 6 suggests that a person may taste the fruits of the Spirit and then fall away from the faith?

 

Hebrews 6:1-8

Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings,1 the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and shave shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

 

God bless,

William

 

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12 minutes ago, William said:

Good job in your original post, innerfire.

 

Do you think that a lot of confusion occurs when someone thinks of the life of a "convert" as a synonymous term as the life of a born again Christian convert? From an outside perspective, consider what some may observe - a group of people all engaged in Christian activity, all professing belief, leading a bible study etc. But later in adult life some denounce the faith and no longer continue to the end. Doesn't Hebrews 6 suggests that a person may taste the fruits of the Spirit and then fall away from the faith?

 

Hebrews 6:1-8

Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings,1 the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and shave shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

 

God bless,

William

 

I think that it's impossible for some one to taste the fruits of The Holy Spirit to fall away. Or that it is impossible for those false converts to come to true repentance and saving faith.

 

And in verse 9 we see that Paul is persuaded that his audience posses the things of salvation, therefore those who have salvation dont apostatize.

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38 minutes ago, Innerfire89 said:

I think that it's impossible for some one to taste the fruits of The Holy Spirit to fall away. Or that it is impossible for those false converts to come to true repentance and saving faith.

 

And in verse 9 we see that Paul is persuaded that his audience posses the things of salvation, therefore those who have salvation dont apostatize.

Then I'll have to ask you what you think "taste the fruits of the Spirit" means?

 

Does the phrase once enlightened (Hebrews 6:4) refer to some level of instruction in biblical truth? Does understanding the words of Scripture the same as being regenerated by the Holy Spirit? Here's a common interpretation, "the “falling away” (Hebrews 6:6) may be reference to those who have tasted the truth but, not having come all the way to faith, fall away from even the revelation they have been given. The tasting of truth is not enough to keep them from falling away from it. They must come all the way to Christ in complete repentance and faith; otherwise, they in effect re-crucify Christ and treat Him contemptuously."

 

Question, in Israel's covenant people is it observable to witness children which are baptized in the Covenant to later denounce the faith? And likewise, do adults which profess faith (even claiming to be born again) later denounce the faith?

 

God bless,

William

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4 hours ago, William said:

Then I'll have to ask you what you think "taste the fruits of the Spirit" means?

 

Does the phrase once enlightened (Hebrews 6:4) refer to some level of instruction in biblical truth? Does understanding the words of Scripture the same as being regenerated by the Holy Spirit? Here's a common interpretation, "the “falling away” (Hebrews 6:6) may be reference to those who have tasted the truth but, not having come all the way to faith, fall away from even the revelation they have been given. The tasting of truth is not enough to keep them from falling away from it. They must come all the way to Christ in complete repentance and faith; otherwise, they in effect re-crucify Christ and treat Him contemptuously."

 

Question, in Israel's covenant people is it observable to witness children which are baptized in the Covenant to later denounce the faith? And likewise, do adults which profess faith (even claiming to be born again) later denounce the faith?

 

God bless,

William

Is possible that being part of the visible church causes one to taste the fruits and be enlightened? 

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On 10/3/2018 at 5:38 PM, Innerfire89 said:

Is possible that being part of the visible church causes one to taste the fruits and be enlightened? 

I think not only possible but that is one of the roles of the church which is beneficial to society. As an example, I'm not suggesting one is saved by only learning from Jesus, but having been exposed to the truth is morally beneficial even if one does not later believe in the moral Law Giver. 

 

Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it.

 

Your thoughts?

 

God bless,

William

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16 minutes ago, William said:

I think not only possible but that is one of the roles of the church which is beneficial to society. As an example, I'm not suggesting one is saved by only learning from Jesus (Christ-ian), but having been exposed to the truth is morally beneficial even if one does not later believe in the moral Law Giver. 

 

Your thoughts?

 

God bless,

William

Agreed, just like the way a non believing husband or wife is sanctified by thier believing spouse. Or how a nation can be godly, yet not every person in that nation is born again, yet all enjoy the blessing on that nation.

 

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2 hours ago, William said:

I think not only possible but that is one of the roles of the church which is beneficial to society. As an example, I'm not suggesting one is saved by only learning from Jesus (Christ-ian), but having been exposed to the truth is morally beneficial even if one does not later believe in the moral Law Giver. 

 

Your thoughts?

 

God bless,

William

I think you have something here. I sought Jesus fervently from 12 to 14 years of age. I gave up at 14 but 2 years of learning God's word had a profound effect on me. I was not the same person anymore. It proves the word itself is annointed.   :RpS_thumbsup:

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2 hours ago, deade said:

I think you have something here. I sought Jesus fervently from 12 to 14 years of age. I gave up at 14 but 2 years of learning God's word had a profound effect on me. I was not the same person anymore. It proves the word itself is annointed.   :RpS_thumbsup:

True, faith comes through hearing, we might be hard headed for awhile but eventually that truth found in God's word will hit home.

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On 10/3/2018 at 6:04 AM, Innerfire89 said:

John 10:28-30

28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.29My Father, who has given them to me,a is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

 

This should be proff enough that salvation can not be lost. But someone will usually come up with the argument that you can walk out of His hand. Walk out because of what? What does it mean to be snatched out of His hand to begin with.

In its proper context, JOHN.10:28-30 was referring to the apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ who were personally chosen by Christ/God, and was not referring to those who came into faith after them. The latter may lose their salvation by losing faith, eg MATTHEW.13(Parables of the Sower, Wheat and Tares), 1TIMOTHY.4:1. This is proven by ...

 

JOHN.17: = Jesus Prays for His Disciples

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

 

9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

 

Jesus Prays for All Believers

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

 

24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

Edited by discipler77

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Joh 10:27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 
Joh 10:28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 

 

Simple Questions @discipler77, are you one of His sheep? 

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8 hours ago, discipler77 said:

In its proper context, JOHN.10:28-30 was referring to the apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ who were personally chosen by Christ/God, and was not referring to those who came into faith after them.

Question, if we are to establish such constraints with respect to audience from context then are any of the Scriptures "to them" for us at all?

 

For example, were the Scriptures which are written to the original disciples pertinent at all to modern disciples? And how do you explain the very same "Ordo Salutis" which pertained to not only the original disciples but to various churches by an Apostle such as Paul to the Ephesians (Chapter 1-2 with emphasis)? Should we reject what was written to the Ephesian church, because, with respect to "that principal" in context, the Scriptures were not written to the Californian San Jose Presbyterian church?

 

God bless,

William

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11 hours ago, discipler77 said:

In its proper context, JOHN.10:28-30 was referring to the apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ who were personally chosen by Christ/God, and was not referring to those who came into faith after them. The latter may lose their salvation by losing faith, eg MATTHEW.13(Parables of the Sower, Wheat and Tares), 1TIMOTHY.4:1. This is proven by ...

 

JOHN.17: = Jesus Prays for His Disciples

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

 

9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

 

Jesus Prays for All Believers

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

 

24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

Let's go back just a verses.

 

 22At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.29My Father, who has given them to me,a is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

 

We see that the Jews were disbelieving and the reason Jesus gave for their disbelieve was that they were not His sheep. I'm can't see why Jesus would be telling them they can't believe because they were of the disciples, and it would also mean that there were more than 11 (Judas excluded).

 

 

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12 hours ago, discipler77 said:

In its proper context, JOHN.10:28-30 was referring to the apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ who were personally chosen by Christ/God, and was not referring to those who came into faith after them. The latter may lose their salvation by losing faith, eg MATTHEW.13(Parables of the Sower, Wheat and Tares), 1TIMOTHY.4:1. This is proven by ...

 

JOHN.17: = Jesus Prays for His Disciples

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

 

9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

 

Jesus Prays for All Believers

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

 

24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

I don't think the parable of the sower reached loss of salvation.

First we see that the seed is eaten by birds, no salvation there.

1That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat beside the sea. 2And great crowds gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat down. And the whole crowd stood on the beach. 3And he told them many things in parables, saying: “A sower went out to sow.4And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them.

 

Then others had no root

 5Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, 6but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away.

 

Then we see that external thing (Thorns) made the word void to them.

 7Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them.

 

But now we see that seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, faith producing works.

8Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9He who has ears,a let him hear.”

 

It seems that only the seed that feel on good soil were saved.

 

And what is it that makes soil good or bad when all people are equally effected by sin? 

 

Recently I did a thread on how "may be" and "might" can be used to mean so that .

 

 

Edited by Innerfire89

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On 10/3/2018 at 6:04 AM, Innerfire89 said:

John 10:28-30

28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.29My Father, who has given them to me,a is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

 

This should be proff enough that salvation can not be lost. But someone will usually come up with the argument that you can walk out of His hand. Walk out because of what? What does it mean to be snatched out of His hand to begin with.

No, salvation can be lost, especially Gentile Christians who were formerly mostly lawless Gentiles before conversion.

 

Why would Jesus Christ spoke the warning verses below if salvation cannot be lost, eg lost through sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking and receiving the mark-of-the-beast.?

 

REVELATION.2: =

The Compromising Church

12 “And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write,

 

‘These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: 13 “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. 15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

 

17 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.” ’

 

The Corrupt Church

18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,

 

‘These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: 19 “I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. 20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

 

24 “Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. 25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

 

27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—

 

as I also have received from My Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star.

 

29 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’

.

 

REV.3: =

The Dead Church

1 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,

 

‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

 

6 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’

.

 

REV.13 & 14 = 13:16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. ...

 

14:9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Edited by discipler77

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28 minutes ago, discipler77 said:

No, salvation can be lost, especially Gentile Christians who were formerly mostly lawless Gentiles before conversion.

 

Why would Jesus Christ spoke the warning verses below if salvation cannot be lost, eg lost through sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking and receiving the mark-of-the-beast.?

 

REVELATION.2: =

The Compromising Church

12 “And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write,

 

‘These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: 13 “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. 15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

 

17 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.” ’

 

The Corrupt Church

18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,

 

‘These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: 19 “I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. 20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

 

24 “Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. 25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

 

27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—

 

as I also have received from My Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star.

 

29 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’

.

 

REV.3: =

The Dead Church

1 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,

 

‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

 

6 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’

.

 

REV.13 & 14 = 13:16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. ...

 

14:9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Romans 3:1-18

1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God.3What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? 4By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written,

“That you may be justified in your words,
and prevail when you are judged.”

5But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) 6By no means! For then how could God judge the world? 7But if through my lie God’s truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? 8And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

No One Is Righteous

9What then? Are we Jewsa any better off?b No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,10as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16in their paths are ruin and misery,
17and the way of peace they have not known.”
18“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

 

 

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10 hours ago, discipler77 said:

No, salvation can be lost, especially Gentile Christians who were formerly mostly lawless Gentiles before conversion.

If "our own works" sustains salvation then salvation is based on "works performance". Have you considered that that is exactly an indicator of why they were never or are not presently "alive"?

 

Revelation 2:2 “I know your works,

Revelation 3:1-2 “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God.

 

How are we to understand alive and dead?

 

Consider:

John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

1 John 5:12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

 

Last question, when we Commune with God are we acknowledging or remembering "our own works"?

 

God bless,

William

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4 hours ago, discipler77 said:

No, salvation can be lost, especially Gentile Christians who were formerly mostly lawless Gentiles before conversion.

 

11 hours ago, Becky said:

Joh 10:27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 
Joh 10:28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 

 

Simple Questions @discipler77, are you one of His sheep? 

Asking again are you one of His sheep?
 

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10 hours ago, Innerfire89 said:

Romans 3:1-18

HEBREWS.10:26-31 = 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

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18 hours ago, discipler77 said:

Why would Jesus Christ spoke the warning verses below if salvation cannot be lost, eg lost through sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking and receiving the mark-of-the-beast.?

The verses you quoted were addressed to churches, not to individuals.  A church or organization can go from being faithful to Christ to teaching error.  This happens as saved members die and are replaced by those who are not really saved.  It doesn't require that any individual Christian lose his salvation. 

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On 10/3/2018 at 2:12 PM, Innerfire89 said:

The Galatians didn't loose thier salvation, they fell from the teaching of grace, not fallen away from the grace of God.

 

Let's get back on track here, what does it mean to be snatched out of Christ hand?

Paul said they fell (past tense) from grace,  The word 'teaching" in not in the original language.

 

 

Ye are fallen from grace:

"For a similar phrase see 2 Peter 3:17. Having put yourselves under the economy of salvation by law, you have fallen out of the economy of salvation by the grace of Christ. Paul's declarations are aimed at the Judaisers, who taught that the Christian economy was to be joined with the legal. His point is that the two are mutually exclusive." Vincent Word Studies

 

 

"Christ is become of no effect to you, whoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace."

 

Not only does Paul say they fell from grace, he said they had been severed from Christ, Christ is become of no effect to you.

 

 "Christ is become of no effect unto you.—Literally, Ye were (or, more idiomatically, are) abolished, made nothing, from Christ; a condensed form of expression for, Ye are made nothing (unchristianised), and cut off from Christ. Your relations to Christ are cancelled, and you are Christians no longer." Ellicott's Commentary.

 

 

By those Galatians leaving Christ and His NT gospel going back to the OT law of Moses they has separated, severed themselves from Christ Who justifies and the gospel that saves (Rom 1:16).  There is no salvation apart from Christ and His gospel.

 

 

Logically, one cannot fall from a tree unless on first gets into the tree.  Therefore one cannot be severed-freed from Christ if he was never first joined to Christ, one cannot fall from grace unless he was first in grace.  Those Galatians quit hearing and following Christ (John 10:27) therefore no longer of the "them" and 'they" of John 10:28 that shall not perish.

Edited by seabass

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