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Grafted Branch

Revelation 11 and the two witnesses

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   I would like to present what I see when examining Revelation 11 in regards to the two witnesses, at least to verse14. I think going verse by verse will be the most straight forward and simplest way.

 

   Verses 1-2 the measurements include the temple and alter of God and the worshippers therein. The Gentiles are left out of the measurement. This is Old Testament saved Israel, they are the first fruits and the 144,000 as we see in Revelation 14:1 and else where. The holy city shall they (the Gentiles) tread under foot forty and two months. According to Luke 21:24 this time period is “until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled”. I think the 42 months in this instance is a symbolic period of time the same as the 1,000 year reign.

 

   Verse 3 I see John the Baptist as representing the whole 144,000 and the 2 witnesses. In Matthew 11:13-14 all the prophets and the law prophesied until John and it is Elias (Elijah) and John the Baptist is given “the spirit and power of Elias” (Luke 1:17). Power is given to the 2 witnesses (which I think are the law and the prophets) the same thing happened to John the Baptist which is one of the reasons he can be considered representative of the 2 witnesses. They prophesy 1260 days clothed in sackcloth. John the Baptist was clothed with camels hair (Mark 1:6) which could be viewed as sackcloth.

 

   Verse 4 they are the 2 olive trees, in Jeremiah 11:16 Israel is called a green olive tree. The two candlesticks represent the body, in Revelation 1:20 the candlesticks are the churches and the church represents the body of Christ (Ephesians 1:22-23). This is then Israel as the body of Christ.

 

   Verses 5-6 describes the various attributes and power given to the 2 witnesses.

 

Verse 7 their testimony is finished when Christ’s ministry starts, in John 3:30 John the Baptist or the 2 witnesses must decrease. The beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit, this statement clarifies which beast it is (Revelation 13 has 2 beasts) and not necessarily that the beast has already ascended. The beast shall make war against them, and overcome them, and kill them. This is the war in Revelation 12:17, the 2 witnesses are overcome and killed in respect to the Messiah being cut off (Daniel 9:26). This is a temporary setback as they do ultimately overcome the beast as we see in Revelation 12:11.

 

   Verse 8 their dead bodies in the street, I think is in reference to John the Baptist’s body after he was beheaded. The great city where our Lord was crucified is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt. Christ was crucified out side the city of Jerusalem (Hebrews 13:12), I think this statement is conveying that the Gentiles are typified by 2 parts and in this case Sodom and Egypt. After Messiah is cut off there is no difference between Jew and Gentile (Galatians 3:28). In Isaiah 19:23-25 we see 2 Gentile nations and Israel being blessed as one. In Revelation 16:19 this great city is again divided into 3 parts (Jew and Gentile). Incidentally this 1/3 and 2/3 division between Jew and Gentile can be described in truncated decimal form as .333 and .666.

 

   Verse 9 the people and kindred and tongues and nations, is a reference to the Gentiles. They shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put into graves, it was John the Baptist’s disciples that put his body in the tomb and only after they heard of it (Mark 6:29).

 

   Verse 10 I think this is describing the events that happened at the birthday celebration given to Herod (Mark 6:21-25). Herod’s wife had a quarrel with John the Baptist to the point she wanted him killed over his statement about their marriage (Mark 6:18-19), I think this was the “torment” to them that dwelt on the earth. I think then Herod being a ruler can be representative of them that dwell on the earth.

 

   Verse 11 after 3 1/2 days they come to life. I think this is a symbolic period of time and may actually be 3 1/2 years. This is the 144,000 coming out of the graves in Matthew 27:53. This also appears to relate to the parable of dry bones in Ezekiel 37.

 

   Verse 12 they ascend to heaven along with Christ, John 20:17 tells us that Christ hadn’t yet ascended, at some point after that he does ascend and I believe he takes the 144,000 or 2 witnesses with him. In Revelation 14:1 they are seen together on mount Sion and in verse 2 a voice from heaven is heard.

 

   Verse 13 I think the great earthquake is the same one mentioned in Matthew 27:51. The remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven, the centurion who was more than likely not a Jew glorified God (Luke 23:47). This may be the remnant however in Romans 11:5 remnant is used to refer to Jews. We do see in Luke 23:49 that all his acquaintances stood afar off beholding these things, this might be what is in view and if so then they would have also gave glory to God.

 

   Verse 14 says the second woe is past. The first woe is past in Revelation 9:12, this comes after Satan is released from the bottomless pit. The third woe is in Revelation 12:12 and happens after Satan is cast out of heaven to the earth. If we take these woes in this order then Satan who is in heaven as we see in Job 2:1 is removed at some point and put into the bottomless pit, he is then released from the pit (the first woe), then we have the 2 witnesses (second woe), and then he is cast out of heaven again (the third woe). I can’t find any other scriptures to support this. If we use the principle that the first shall be last and the last shall be first (Luke 13:30) then Satan is cast out of heaven (third woe), the death of the 2 witnesses and Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection (second woe), and Satan then being released from the bottomless pit (first woe). This then seams to fit other scriptures on this matter and allows the Gentiles to be first or the main harvest and Jews to be last.

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On 10/1/2018 at 1:04 PM, Grafted Branch said:

   I would like to present what I see when examining Revelation 11 in regards to the two witnesses, at least to verse14. I think going verse by verse will be the most straight forward and simplest way.

 

   Verses 1-2 the measurements include the temple and alter of God and the worshippers therein. The Gentiles are left out of the measurement. This is Old Testament saved Israel, they are the first fruits and the 144,000 as we see in Revelation 14:1 and else where. The holy city shall they (the Gentiles) tread under foot forty and two months. According to Luke 21:24 this time period is “until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled”. I think the 42 months in this instance is a symbolic period of time the same as the 1,000 year reign.

Just trying to help, take it or leave it:

 

There's a bigger flow of Scripture involved, and it began at the end of Revelation 8 with mention of 3 more angels (i..e, Trumpets) left to sound. Each one of those final 3 trumpets have a Woe attached to them, so they serve as periods of time. That means the events in between them represent the things to occur in that order and link to each Woe.

 

The events of Rev.11:1-13 back to Rev.9:12 all occur within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. These are all events to occur at the very end of this world, just prior to Christ's return on the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe of Rev.11:15 forward.

 

John is given a reed "like unto a rod". Well, isn't a 'reed' actually a type of 'rod'? Yes, so why are we specifically told it was a reed for measuring but "like unto a rod"? What kind of rod? A rod can also be a staff, or cane, or sceptre. In this context of Rev.11:1-2, it's about a punishing rod. The situation there in Jerusalem in that time of God's two witnesses is likened to how it was for Israel in Egypt, and with Lot in Sodom (see Rev.11:8).

 

John is told to measure the temple of God, so it's definitely about a standing temple in Jerusalem, and those who worship inside. John is told to not measure the outer court because it's given to the Gentiles and... what? The Gentiles will 'tread' the holy city for 42 months. That is about the end, a final siege by the Gentiles at the end of this world. It will be the last one too, because our Lord Jesus will come to lift it.

 

The 42 months is tied to the time when the "dragon" of Rev.13 will work over all nations and peoples on earth, per Rev.13:4-8.

 

 

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2Co_6:16  And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 


Act 7:48  Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 
Act 7:49  Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? 
Act 7:50  Hath not my hand made all these things? 
1Pe 2:4  To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 
1Pe 2:5  Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 
1Pe 2:6  Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 
1Pe 2:7  Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 
1Pe 2:8  And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 
1Pe 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 
 

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On 10/5/2018 at 5:30 PM, davy said:

Just trying to help, take it or leave it:

 

There's a bigger flow of Scripture involved, and it began at the end of Revelation 8 with mention of 3 more angels (i..e, Trumpets) left to sound. Each one of those final 3 trumpets have a Woe attached to them, so they serve as periods of time. That means the events in between them represent the things to occur in that order and link to each Woe.

 

The events of Rev.11:1-13 back to Rev.9:12 all occur within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. These are all events to occur at the very end of this world, just prior to Christ's return on the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe of Rev.11:15 forward.

 

John is given a reed "like unto a rod". Well, isn't a 'reed' actually a type of 'rod'? Yes, so why are we specifically told it was a reed for measuring but "like unto a rod"? What kind of rod? A rod can also be a staff, or cane, or sceptre. In this context of Rev.11:1-2, it's about a punishing rod. The situation there in Jerusalem in that time of God's two witnesses is likened to how it was for Israel in Egypt, and with Lot in Sodom (see Rev.11:8).

 

John is told to measure the temple of God, so it's definitely about a standing temple in Jerusalem, and those who worship inside. John is told to not measure the outer court because it's given to the Gentiles and... what? The Gentiles will 'tread' the holy city for 42 months. That is about the end, a final siege by the Gentiles at the end of this world. It will be the last one too, because our Lord Jesus will come to lift it.

 

The 42 months is tied to the time when the "dragon" of Rev.13 will work over all nations and peoples on earth, per Rev.13:4-8.

 

 

Davey if you wouldn’t mind could you expound on your view of a couple of points. I see that a very popular way of looking at end time events is that every time 3 1/2 years, 42 months, or 1260 days is mentioned it is put into one half or the other of the tribulation. I have personally found this to hinder my understanding. In Revelation 11:2 the Gentiles tread under foot the holy city for 42 months. I used Luke 21:24 to compare with this verse. If I understand your view correctly you don’t think that Jerusalem was or is currently being trodden down and the “times of the Gentiles” is for 42 months in the tribulation. Is this correct? Or are theses 2 verses separate events and Jerusalem is trodden down more than once?

   The other point I would like clarification on is your view of the 3 woes. In Revelation 12:12 the third woe is to the inhabitants of the earth because the devil has come down to you. This implies that the devil wasn’t on earth at least just prior to this statement. If I understand your view then Satan is released from the bottomless pit (first woe), the 2 wittiness (second woe), then at some point he leaves the earth during the tribulation and then comes back having great wrath because he knows his time is short. Is this correct? Or do you think the millennial reign happens in between the second and third woe?

   I just want to make sure I understand your viewpoint in these 2 areas as I continue to study the scriptures.

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13 hours ago, Grafted Branch said:

Davey if you wouldn’t mind could you expound on your view of a couple of points. I see that a very popular way of looking at end time events is that every time 3 1/2 years, 42 months, or 1260 days is mentioned it is put into one half or the other of the tribulation. I have personally found this to hinder my understanding. In Revelation 11:2 the Gentiles tread under foot the holy city for 42 months. I used Luke 21:24 to compare with this verse. If I understand your view correctly you don’t think that Jerusalem was or is currently being trodden down and the “times of the Gentiles” is for 42 months in the tribulation. Is this correct? Or are theses 2 verses separate events and Jerusalem is trodden down more than once?

   The other point I would like clarification on is your view of the 3 woes. In Revelation 12:12 the third woe is to the inhabitants of the earth because the devil has come down to you. This implies that the devil wasn’t on earth at least just prior to this statement. If I understand your view then Satan is released from the bottomless pit (first woe), the 2 wittiness (second woe), then at some point he leaves the earth during the tribulation and then comes back having great wrath because he knows his time is short. Is this correct? Or do you think the millennial reign happens in between the second and third woe?

   I just want to make sure I understand your viewpoint in these 2 areas as I continue to study the scriptures.

 

1. I don't let myself be swayed with what's popular and what's not. We shouldn't base our belief on whether something is popular or not. Is it God's Word or not, that's the matter. I had to say that, so forgive me if it feels like I'm chastising.

 

2. It's not just the numbers like 1260, or 42, nor the "time, times, and half a time" linked because they're all equal numerically. It's because of the type of events linked to them. We can easily go back to the Book of Daniel which links to events at the end of days and that same period of 3.5 years which is the latter half of the Dan.9:27 "one week". The Rev.13:5-8 Scripture about the dragon ruling for 42 months is directly linked to the little horn of Dan.7:25-26 where we are told he will wear out the saints for "a time and times and the dividing of time" which is equal to the 42 months. So whether we count as 42 months or a time, times and dividing of time, it's still about a time of the saints being persecuted by the "little horn" or "dragon" or Satan, for he has many titles in God's Word.

 

In Daniel 7, after that "time and times and the dividing of time" of the little horn's wearing out the saints, an eternal Kingdom for the saints will be setup that will never be destroyed. It's easy to know that Kingdom will be Christ's literal Kingdom manifest on earth when He returns and ends the dragon's reign. We're even shown in that Dan.7:27 verse that all dominions will serve and obey Him at that time.

 

3. Can the Luke 21 Scripture also apply to the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the temple? Some verses in it, Yes! But not all verses given there. Luke 21:22 and then 21:25-28 are definitely about Christ's future 2nd coming which is still yet to occur today.

 

So what do we do with Scripture like that, which intermingles prophecy definitely for the very end of the world when our Lord Jesus returns in our near future, with other verses there which can point back to the 70 A.D. destruction? No new thing under the sun. Antiochus IV set an almost perfect blueprint for the final Antichrist placing the "abomination that maketh desolate" inside the temple at Jerusalem at the very end of this world per our Lord Jesus in Matthew 24. But Antiochus IV had been dead almost 200 years when our Lord Jesus forewarned of the "abomination of desolation" prophecy from the Book of Daniel. Not hard to understand then, He means for us to look for another at the end of this world to fulfill that. When we see another Jewish temple built in Jerusalem in our near future, and orthodox Jews there already have the materials ready to build it, then we will definitely understand how our Lord Jesus' Olivet discourse served some as blueprint for history, but more fully about the very end of this world when He returns.

 

4. The Woe in Rev.12 is not the same as the 3 woes attached to the last 3 trumpets. Just the casting out of Satan to this earth, in our dimension, will be a major WOE! by itself. But if you wanted to attach it to one of the 3 trumpets, it would have to be the 6th one, for that is when the 42 months period will actually begin.

 

Satan is still today free to roam the earth, and appear in Heaven before God's Throne to accuse us, as Rev.12:10 indirectly points. When he is cast out of the heavenly dimension to our earthly dimension, that is when he will no longer be able to appear before God's Throne to accuse us. He will only be allowed to work his deceptions on earth. That will be the time of "great tribulation". It will be a tribulation upon us, Christ's saints. This is why it will the greatest time of tribulation on earth that has ever been, or ever will be, like Jesus said. And our Lord Jesus told us to not fear it nor death. Then our Lord Jesus will come to end Satan's reign on earth, and that's when our Lord Jesus' thousand years reign over the nations will begin.

 

 

 

Edited by davy

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12 hours ago, davy said:

 

1. I don't let myself be swayed with what's popular and what's not. We shouldn't base our belief on whether something is popular or not. Is it God's Word or not, that's the matter. I had to say that, so forgive me if it feels like I'm chastising.

 

2. It's not just the numbers like 1260, or 42, nor the "time, times, and half a time" linked because they're all equal numerically. It's because of the type of events linked to them. We can easily go back to the Book of Daniel which links to events at the end of days and that same period of 3.5 years which is the latter half of the Dan.9:27 "one week". The Rev.13:5-8 Scripture about the dragon ruling for 42 months is directly linked to the little horn of Dan.7:25-26 where we are told he will wear out the saints for "a time and times and the dividing of time" which is equal to the 42 months. So whether we count as 42 months or a time, times and dividing of time, it's still about a time of the saints being persecuted by the "little horn" or "dragon" or Satan, for he has many titles in God's Word.

 

In Daniel 7, after that "time and times and the dividing of time" of the little horn's wearing out the saints, an eternal Kingdom for the saints will be setup that will never be destroyed. It's easy to know that Kingdom will be Christ's literal Kingdom manifest on earth when He returns and ends the dragon's reign. We're even shown in that Dan.7:27 verse that all dominions will serve and obey Him at that time.

 

3. Can the Luke 21 Scripture also apply to the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the temple? Some verses in it, Yes! But not all verses given there. Luke 21:22 and then 21:25-28 are definitely about Christ's future 2nd coming which is still yet to occur today.

 

So what do we do with Scripture like that, which intermingles prophecy definitely for the very end of the world when our Lord Jesus returns in our near future, with other verses there which can point back to the 70 A.D. destruction? No new thing under the sun. Antiochus IV set an almost perfect blueprint for the final Antichrist placing the "abomination that maketh desolate" inside the temple at Jerusalem at the very end of this world per our Lord Jesus in Matthew 24. But Antiochus IV had been dead almost 200 years when our Lord Jesus forewarned of the "abomination of desolation" prophecy from the Book of Daniel. Not hard to understand then, He means for us to look for another at the end of this world to fulfill that. When we see another Jewish temple built in Jerusalem in our near future, and orthodox Jews there already have the materials ready to build it, then we will definitely understand how our Lord Jesus' Olivet discourse served some as blueprint for history, but more fully about the very end of this world when He returns.

 

4. The Woe in Rev.12 is not the same as the 3 woes attached to the last 3 trumpets. Just the casting out of Satan to this earth, in our dimension, will be a major WOE! by itself. But if you wanted to attach it to one of the 3 trumpets, it would have to be the 6th one, for that is when the 42 months period will actually begin.

 

Satan is still today free to roam the earth, and appear in Heaven before God's Throne to accuse us, as Rev.12:10 indirectly points. When he is cast out of the heavenly dimension to our earthly dimension, that is when he will no longer be able to appear before God's Throne to accuse us. He will only be allowed to work his deceptions on earth. That will be the time of "great tribulation". It will be a tribulation upon us, Christ's saints. This is why it will the greatest time of tribulation on earth that has ever been, or ever will be, like Jesus said. And our Lord Jesus told us to not fear it nor death. Then our Lord Jesus will come to end Satan's reign on earth, and that's when our Lord Jesus' thousand years reign over the nations will begin.

 

 

 

I take no offense at all, as we sometimes have to step on each other’s toes to get a point across. So please don’t hesitate to say something if it needs to be said.

 

   I just want to say that I have examined most of the various end times positions and I do appreciate you explaining your view. I’m not questioning the 7 year tribulation or that it’s divided into two 3 1/2 year periods. I do question the practice of always fitting every occurrence of it into the tribulation. 

 

   I see you have anticipated some of the issues with associating Luke 21:24 and Revelation 11:2. I take it that you see Jerusalem being trodden down more than once. I find this an acceptable answer if you believe this way, as I don’t find anywhere it says there will be only one trodding down. However it does create other questions which you did made reference to as not all verses in Luke 21 can then be related to end times.

   The enigma of the 3 woes is a different matter and was one of the reasons for the original post. If you find or come across another answer besides the view that the woe in Revelation 12:12 isn’t to be considered as one of the 3 woes let me know. The position I have taken on the 2 witnesses is extremely different but it does use biblical principles and can explain the 3 woes. There may be things that will need to be corrected in this view as I am always studying. Thank you for taking the time to look at my position on this.

 

   I have one other question, you stated that Satan is currently in heaven and able to accuse. If Christ has already paid for our sins this would be an illegitimate accusation. Why would God allow this?

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About how long was the earthly ministry of Jesus? 

Seems to me that  31/2 years comes into play some  place. 

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10 hours ago, Grafted Branch said:

I take no offense at all, as we sometimes have to step on each other’s toes to get a point across. So please don’t hesitate to say something if it needs to be said.

 

   I just want to say that I have examined most of the various end times positions and I do appreciate you explaining your view. I’m not questioning the 7 year tribulation or that it’s divided into two 3 1/2 year periods. I do question the practice of always fitting every occurrence of it into the tribulation. 

 

   I see you have anticipated some of the issues with associating Luke 21:24 and Revelation 11:2. I take it that you see Jerusalem being trodden down more than once. I find this an acceptable answer if you believe this way, as I don’t find anywhere it says there will be only one trodding down. However it does create other questions which you did made reference to as not all verses in Luke 21 can then be related to end times.

   The enigma of the 3 woes is a different matter and was one of the reasons for the original post. If you find or come across another answer besides the view that the woe in Revelation 12:12 isn’t to be considered as one of the 3 woes let me know. The position I have taken on the 2 witnesses is extremely different but it does use biblical principles and can explain the 3 woes. There may be things that will need to be corrected in this view as I am always studying. Thank you for taking the time to look at my position on this.

 

   I have one other question, you stated that Satan is currently in heaven and able to accuse. If Christ has already paid for our sins this would be an illegitimate accusation. Why would God allow this?

Jerusalem has been sieged many times in its history; something like 27 times if I recall. But I see the trodding in Rev.11:2 pointing to the very end of this world, just prior to Christ's return on the 7th trumpet. This is how logic in Revelation shows the tribulation events must be prior to that 7th trumpet, so the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period is covering that Rev.11:2 trodding of Jerusalem.

 

Concerning Satan, what God allows and doesn't allow, God is using him as a punisher upon the rebellious. In Isaiah 10 God called "the Assyrian" the "rod of Mine anger". At the end of Isaiah 30, God uses that title of "the Assyrian" to actually point to the one whom Tophet has been prepared for (i.e., Tophet is used as a symbol for the "lake of fire"; see also Matt.25:41). The devil and his angels are who the "lake of fire" has already been prepared for, not the historical flesh king of Assyria, for no flesh born man has already been judged and sentenced to perish in the "lake of fire", not even Judas yet.

 

Until the time when our Lord Jesus returns, Satan is still free to work his deceptions as a test and punishing rod upon the rebellious. Apostle Peter showed this in 1 Peter 5:8 that we are to remain sober and on watch, because our "adversary the devil as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour."

 

A lot of brethren are wrongly led to believe Satan is sort of co-equal with God in power. He is not; he can only do what our Heavenly Father allows him to do, and Isaiah 10 is one of the places where God indirectly shows us how He uses Satan as a punishing rod upon the haughty and rebellious. The idea of thorns and briars void of water bursting in hot flames when fire is set to them is a metaphor God uses about Satan's destruction (Isaiah 10:17). So Satan is really just like a switch taken off a tree for whipping the rebellious. When the whipping is done, what does one do with the switch? One throws it in the fire. So really, as long as the rebellious exist, God has a job for the devil to do. Even after Christ's "thousand years" reign of Rev.20, Satan will be loosed then to go test the nations one more time.

 

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, davy said:

Jerusalem has been sieged many times in its history; something like 27 times if I recall. But I see the trodding in Rev.11:2 pointing to the very end of this world, just prior to Christ's return on the 7th trumpet. This is how logic in Revelation shows the tribulation events must be prior to that 7th trumpet, so the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period is covering that Rev.11:2 trodding of Jerusalem.

 

Concerning Satan, what God allows and doesn't allow, God is using him as a punisher upon the rebellious. In Isaiah 10 God called "the Assyrian" the "rod of Mine anger". At the end of Isaiah 30, God uses that title of "the Assyrian" to actually point to the one whom Tophet has been prepared for (i.e., Tophet is used as a symbol for the "lake of fire"; see also Matt.25:41). The devil and his angels are who the "lake of fire" has already been prepared for, not the historical flesh king of Assyria, for no flesh born man has already been judged and sentenced to perish in the "lake of fire", not even Judas yet.

 

Until the time when our Lord Jesus returns, Satan is still free to work his deceptions as a test and punishing rod upon the rebellious. Apostle Peter showed this in 1 Peter 5:8 that we are to remain sober and on watch, because our "adversary the devil as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour."

 

A lot of brethren are wrongly led to believe Satan is sort of co-equal with God in power. He is not; he can only do what our Heavenly Father allows him to do, and Isaiah 10 is one of the places where God indirectly shows us how He uses Satan as a punishing rod upon the haughty and rebellious. The idea of thorns and briars void of water bursting in hot flames when fire is set to them is a metaphor God uses about Satan's destruction (Isaiah 10:17). So Satan is really just like a switch taken off a tree for whipping the rebellious. When the whipping is done, what does one do with the switch? One throws it in the fire. So really, as long as the rebellious exist, God has a job for the devil to do. Even after Christ's "thousand years" reign of Rev.20, Satan will be loosed then to go test the nations one more time.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with most of what you say, I’m an amillennialist so I do disagree with the millennial reign thought. I apologize for not stating my question a little better. What I would like to know is if Revelation 12:10 where Satan is accusing (and I agree he is given the ability to accuse) and Christ has already paid for our sins at this point then the accusations are a lie or false. You could say that the accusations are inadmissible because sins are paid for. Does God then allow lies and false accusations to be in his presence in heaven? When the books are open and people are going to be judged it doesn’t appear from the scriptures that there will be any arguments only the truth will be heard. In Matthew 7:21-23 the claims of those who say Lord, Lord aren’t questioned as being false even though they cast out devils, the only statement made is that Christ never knew them. I do think Satan can and does cast out Satan at times because his kingdom will not stand (Matthew 12:26). Before Christ died for our sins Satan’s accusations would be legitimate statements and therefore allowed. I realize that on earth false and misleading things seem to be everywhere and the norm nowadays but I don’t see anywhere in the scriptures where this is allowed in heaven. So are there any other scriptures that do show any false statements being allowed in heaven?

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On 10/10/2018 at 4:02 AM, davy said:

 

1. I don't let myself be swayed with what's popular and what's not. We shouldn't base our belief on whether something is popular or not. Is it God's Word or not, that's the matter. I had to say that, so forgive me if it feels like I'm chastising.

 

2. It's not just the numbers like 1260, or 42, nor the "time, times, and half a time" linked because they're all equal numerically. It's because of the type of events linked to them. We can easily go back to the Book of Daniel which links to events at the end of days and that same period of 3.5 years which is the latter half of the Dan.9:27 "one week". The Rev.13:5-8 Scripture about the dragon ruling for 42 months is directly linked to the little horn of Dan.7:25-26 where we are told he will wear out the saints for "a time and times and the dividing of time" which is equal to the 42 months. So whether we count as 42 months or a time, times and dividing of time, it's still about a time of the saints being persecuted by the "little horn" or "dragon" or Satan, for he has many titles in God's Word.

 

In Daniel 7, after that "time and times and the dividing of time" of the little horn's wearing out the saints, an eternal Kingdom for the saints will be setup that will never be destroyed. It's easy to know that Kingdom will be Christ's literal Kingdom manifest on earth when He returns and ends the dragon's reign. We're even shown in that Dan.7:27 verse that all dominions will serve and obey Him at that time.

 

3. Can the Luke 21 Scripture also apply to the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the temple? Some verses in it, Yes! But not all verses given there. Luke 21:22 and then 21:25-28 are definitely about Christ's future 2nd coming which is still yet to occur today.

 

So what do we do with Scripture like that, which intermingles prophecy definitely for the very end of the world when our Lord Jesus returns in our near future, with other verses there which can point back to the 70 A.D. destruction? No new thing under the sun. Antiochus IV set an almost perfect blueprint for the final Antichrist placing the "abomination that maketh desolate" inside the temple at Jerusalem at the very end of this world per our Lord Jesus in Matthew 24. But Antiochus IV had been dead almost 200 years when our Lord Jesus forewarned of the "abomination of desolation" prophecy from the Book of Daniel. Not hard to understand then, He means for us to look for another at the end of this world to fulfill that. When we see another Jewish temple built in Jerusalem in our near future, and orthodox Jews there already have the materials ready to build it, then we will definitely understand how our Lord Jesus' Olivet discourse served some as blueprint for history, but more fully about the very end of this world when He returns.

 

4. The Woe in Rev.12 is not the same as the 3 woes attached to the last 3 trumpets. Just the casting out of Satan to this earth, in our dimension, will be a major WOE! by itself. But if you wanted to attach it to one of the 3 trumpets, it would have to be the 6th one, for that is when the 42 months period will actually begin.

 

Satan is still today free to roam the earth, and appear in Heaven before God's Throne to accuse us, as Rev.12:10 indirectly points. When he is cast out of the heavenly dimension to our earthly dimension, that is when he will no longer be able to appear before God's Throne to accuse us. He will only be allowed to work his deceptions on earth. That will be the time of "great tribulation". It will be a tribulation upon us, Christ's saints. This is why it will the greatest time of tribulation on earth that has ever been, or ever will be, like Jesus said. And our Lord Jesus told us to not fear it nor death. Then our Lord Jesus will come to end Satan's reign on earth, and that's when our Lord Jesus' thousand years reign over the nations will begin.

 

 

 

We are close to being unanimous in agreement on all of these subjects. The Little Horn I am not sure, I see him as a MAN not as Satan, so I was not positive as per your viewpoint there.

 

As per the Three Woes left, I can never, or hardly ever, get people to see this. This means the 7th Trump is all Seven Vials and thus the 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe just like the 7th Seal is all 7 Trumpets rolled into one. This of course means that all of God's Wrath actually emits/comes forth from the opening of the Seven Seals. And just like the 2nd Woes details are not given in Rev. 11, neither are the details of the 3rd Woe. We are just told the 7th Trumpet sounds and Jesus takes over. The 7th Trumpet is the 3rd Woe and thus its also Rev. ch. 16. On other words Rev. 11 is a Parenthetical Citation, its an insertion into the book of Revelation, its about the Two-witnesses Ministry on earth. 

 

Also, Antiochus Epiphanes IV was a type of the coming Anti-Christ but I think we overlook another type, the False Prophet had a type that lived at the same time as AE4, his name was Jason (real name Yeshua) and he bribed AE4 to become the High Priest, and thereby AE4 killed Jason's brother, a pious High Priest named Onias III. Jason then tried to Hellenize all the Jews but they revolted. 

 

You have a keen eye as per Rev. 11. 

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Staff

In using the term a day is as a thousand years and thousand years is as a day ... 

2Pe_3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 

42 months is about 1260 days  can we times that by 1000 ? 

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The 1000 years is as a day and a day is as a 1000 years to God has no exponential meaning whatsoever. It is meant to convey the message that God is not subject to time, in that God created time for us humans when He created the Universe. God being eternal has no need of ever having been created, thus all thing subject to time (or born in our universe) via the Scientific Laws of Nature, must needs of have been created, but God is not from this realm, He is from outside our universe. Thus the Laws of nature need not apply to God.

 

Basically a 1000 years is as a day to God can be summed up in this saying ALSO.....God is not subject to the Laws of Nature per our Universe. 

 

Both statements say the same thing. 

Edited by Revelation Ron

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On ‎10‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 2:04 PM, Grafted Branch said:

Verse 12 they ascend to heaven along with Christ, John 20:17 tells us that Christ hadn’t yet ascended, at some point after that he does ascend and I believe he takes the 144,000 or 2 witnesses with him. In Revelation 14:1 they are seen together on mount Sion and in verse 2 a voice from heaven is heard.

They are both the Church, The 144000 and the two witnesses

The Jewish people were and still are Gods witnesses, Jewish believers today

Isaiah we see the Jewish people called witnesses

Isa: 43:10

You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me

 

The Church, we are to be his witnesses

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

 

They are also the 2 lampstands not one lampstand, but two

I would like to suggest that this is referring to, Gods two congregation Jewish believers and gentile believers

 

They are also called the two olive trees

Romans 11:17

If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,

 

Jer 11:16

The LORD called you a thriving olive tree with fruit beautiful in form. But with the roar of a mighty storm he will set it on fire, and its branches will be broken.

 

I believe the Two witnesses are Gods people, we are his witnesses

Rev 11:5

If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes out of their mouth and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die

 

Jer 5:14

Therefore this is what the LORD God Almighty says: “Because the people have spoken these words, I will make my words in your mouth a fire and these people the wood it consumes.

 

Its Gods words that comes out of our mouths that touch the heart of sinful man, they die to sin and are born again. Verse 5 is a picture of witnessing

 

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31 minutes ago, Guppy said:

They are also the 2 lampstands not one lampstand, but two

I would like to suggest that this is referring to, Gods two congregation Jewish believers and gentile believers

 

 

Jesus doesn't have "Two Congregations"?

 

There is one "Church" the bride of Christ, there is only one plan of salvation, that is in the cross of calvary, there is neither Jew nor Greek.

 

The "Two Peoples Of God" doctrine is false, God has no respect of person regarding ethnic heritage.

 

Romans 2:11KJV

For there is no respect of persons with God.

 

Romans 10:12KJV

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

 

 

Edited by Truth7t7

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On 10/17/2018 at 8:20 AM, Becky said:

In using the term a day is as a thousand years and thousand years is as a day ... 

2Pe_3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 

42 months is about 1260 days  can we times that by 1000 ? 

The 42 months is seen in the earthly realm, literal days.

 

The thousand years is a day is an explanation of eternal in the Lord's spiritual realm.

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8 hours ago, Truth7t7 said:

Jesus doesn't have "Two Congregations"?

 

There is one "Church" the bride of Christ, there is only one plan of salvation, that is in the cross of calvary, there is neither Jew nor Greek.

 

The "Two Peoples Of God" doctrine is false, God has no respect of person regarding ethnic heritage.

 

Romans 2:11KJV

For there is no respect of persons with God.

 

Romans 10:12KJV

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

 

 

I agree, I said in my post, The two witnesses are the Church

 

I also said, we the Church are his witnesses and  Jewish believers today, believers are his witnesses

I knew the word congregation was questionable, but the verse is clearly speaking of two sets of believers. Two lampstands and two olive trees. It speaks of Gods people, old and new testament, Jews and gentiles.

 

I don't think it wrong to distinguish between Jewish and gentile believers after all, Paul does it, when he calls us wild olive branch

Romans 11:17

 

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12 hours ago, Guppy said:

They are both the Church, The 144000 and the two witnesses

The Jewish people were and still are Gods witnesses, Jewish believers today

Isaiah we see the Jewish people called witnesses

Isa: 43:10

You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me

 

The Church, we are to be his witnesses

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

 

They are also the 2 lampstands not one lampstand, but two

I would like to suggest that this is referring to, Gods two congregation Jewish believers and gentile believers

 

They are also called the two olive trees

Romans 11:17

If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,

 

Jer 11:16

The LORD called you a thriving olive tree with fruit beautiful in form. But with the roar of a mighty storm he will set it on fire, and its branches will be broken.

 

I believe the Two witnesses are Gods people, we are his witnesses

Rev 11:5

If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes out of their mouth and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die

 

Jer 5:14

Therefore this is what the LORD God Almighty says: “Because the people have spoken these words, I will make my words in your mouth a fire and these people the wood it consumes.

 

Its Gods words that comes out of our mouths that touch the heart of sinful man, they die to sin and are born again. Verse 5 is a picture of witnessing

 

You’ve made some very good points and I don’t find anything that greatly different than what I believe myself.

   The main reason I still think the 2 witnesses are Old Testament Israel is because the measurement taken in Revelation 11:1-2 doesn’t include Gentiles, they are left out. You are definitely correct that currently there is no difference between Jew and Gentile but there was a difference in the Old Testament. Gentiles were not given the word of God during the Old Testament times. 

   An example of how understanding this difference can give a deeper meaning on other scriptures is in Judges 6:36-40. The fleece represents Israel because fleece is cut off the lamb and the Messiah is cut off. The dew is the word of God and the ground is Gentiles or the rest of the earth. The first sign was the fleece was wet but the ground was dry (Old Testament time period). The second sign was the fleece was dry (Israel is blind in part until the fullness of the Gentiles) and the ground was wet (current time period). The events that take place after these 2 time periods in Judges 7 show some definite parallels to the tribulation. I personally wouldn’t have seen these things without first understanding this difference.

   I know there are people who don’t see any difference or as some call it a dispensation. I am not trying to find these differences in time periods but if they are evident to me I don’t try to cover over them either.

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5 hours ago, Guppy said:

I agree, I said in my post, The two witnesses are the Church

 

I also said, we the Church are his witnesses and  Jewish believers today, believers are his witnesses

I knew the word congregation was questionable, but the verse is clearly speaking of two sets of believers. Two lampstands and two olive trees. It speaks of Gods people, old and new testament, Jews and gentiles.

 

I don't think it wrong to distinguish between Jewish and gentile believers after all, Paul does it, when he calls us wild olive branch

Romans 11:17

 

You have created two people's of God within the "Church" based upon ethnic heritage, a false teaching.

 

The "Two Peoples Of God" doctrine is false, God has no respect of person regarding ethnic heritage, there is neither Jew nor Greek in the "Church".

 

Romans 2:11KJV

For there is no respect of persons with God.

 

Romans 10:12KJV

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

 

The future "Two Witnesses" will have literal human bodies with feet that will die, and lay in a physical street in Jerusalem, with a literal world watching as their dead bodies are raised and lifted to heaven.

 

Will you now try to symbolize dead bodies, feet, nations watching, the earth, the great earthquake, 7,000 men dying?

 

Revelation 11:7-13KJV

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Edited by Truth7t7

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8 hours ago, Truth7t7 said:

You have created two people's of God within the "Church" based upon ethnic heritage, a false teaching.

 

The "Two Peoples Of God" doctrine is false, God has no respect of person regarding ethnic heritage, there is neither Jew nor Greek in the "Church".

 

Romans 2:11KJV

For there is no respect of persons with God.

 

Romans 10:12KJV

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

 

The future "Two Witnesses" will have literal human bodies with feet that will die, and lay in a physical street in Jerusalem, with a literal world watching as their dead bodies are raised and lifted to heaven.

 

Will you now try to symbolize dead bodies, feet, nations watching, the earth, the great earthquake, 7,000 men dying?

 

Revelation 11:7-13KJV

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Again I apologize for my poor writing skills' I have told you now twice I agree with you as to one body

let me say it as simple as I can. There are two witnesses to the Word of God The Church all believers, Jewish and Gentiles and old testament saints. Those before the cross and those after the cross.

 

 All of revelation is symbolic.

 

yes Dead bodies are symbolic

 They stood upon their feet....... The resurrection

They ascended to heaven in a cloud and their enemies beheld them.......... The "rapture" 

 

 

The great earthquake is another sign of the second coming when Christ feet touch the ground

Zechariah 14:4

And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

 

I am still working on these things, not fighting anyone

Revelation is symbolic, I am simply trying to share some possibilities

 The dead body verse is interesting

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Sodom and Egypt both represent sin. Sodom was sinful and Egypt was rebellious towards God

My best guess today is Egypt and Sodom are a picture of earth and our Lord was crucified on earth

I am starting to believe that their dead bodies are our fleshly bodies. We are dead to sin and alive in Christ

Even though we are a new creation, we are still in need of these bodies and would not need burial and we would still be in the earth

 

Sorry to all who think I am speaking nonsense, just thinking out loud  

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4 hours ago, Guppy said:

Again I apologize for my poor writing skills' I have told you now twice I agree with you as to one body

let me say it as simple as I can. There are two witnesses to the Word of God The Church all believers, Jewish and Gentiles and old testament saints. Those before the cross and those after the cross.

 

 All of revelation is symbolic.

 

yes Dead bodies are symbolic

 They stood upon their feet....... The resurrection

They ascended to heaven in a cloud and their enemies beheld them.......... The "rapture" 

 

 

The great earthquake is another sign of the second coming when Christ feet touch the ground

Zechariah 14:4

And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

 

I am still working on these things, not fighting anyone

Revelation is symbolic, I am simply trying to share some possibilities

 The dead body verse is interesting

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Sodom and Egypt both represent sin. Sodom was sinful and Egypt was rebellious towards God

My best guess today is Egypt and Sodom are a picture of earth and our Lord was crucified on earth

I am starting to believe that their dead bodies are our fleshly bodies. We are dead to sin and alive in Christ

Even though we are a new creation, we are still in need of these bodies and would not need burial and we would still be in the earth

 

Sorry to all who think I am speaking nonsense, just thinking out loud  

I appreciate your reply and explanation of the "Two Peoples" 

 

It's my opinion that you can't symbolize Revelation 11:7-13, this is a Literal interpretation, in a Literal earthly world.

 

Dead Bodies That Have Feet And Lay In A Street Means Exactly What Is Written, No Symbolizing Needed.

 

Thanks For Thinking Out Loud, Your Views Are Appreciated, As We All Move Forward In Our Learnig Of God's Word's.

Edited by Truth7t7

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