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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
Frosty

What does SALVATION mean?

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According to Strong's Greek meaning it is "a deliverance"  I believe hat most of the salvation scriptures have reference to a timely deliverance we receive as we live in this world.

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The word salvation as used in:

Gen_49:18  I have waited  for thy salvation,H3444 O LORD.

 

Feminine passive participle of H3467; something saved, that is, (abstractly) deliverance; hence aid, victory, prosperity: - deliverance, health, help (-ing), salvation, save, saving (health), welfare.


I think there is a bit more to the word then a simple deliverance. 

This site is blessed to have a Greek/Hebrew scholar on board. Maybe he will expound on this .
 

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3 hours ago, Frosty said:

What does SALVATION mean?

 

According to Strong's Greek meaning it is "a deliverance"  I believe hat most of the salvation scriptures have reference to a timely deliverance we receive as we live in this world.

Salvation means being saved from hell when fallen Man dies = the saved will be going to heaven after death = everlasting/eternal life.(LUKE.16:19-31, MATTHEW.5:27-30, REVELATION.21:8)

....... As per GALATIANS.2:16-17 and JOHN.3:14-18, only faith in Jesus Christ justifies fallen Man for salvation, not the works of the Law. Because of Adam's Original Sin, fallen Man need to be saved from hell when they die - ROMANS.5:12. This should be the Christians' perspective. OTOH, ...

 

The Jews still "falsely" believe that they are justified for salvation(= saved from hell when they die) by keeping or doing the works of the Law or Moses Law. Similarly for the Muslims and the works of the Sharia/Muhammad Law.

....... Buddhists "falsely" believe that they will die and be reincarnated into a cycle of past lives depending on their good works/merits, eg will be reborn as a good  rich ruler through good works/merits. Their final aim is to end the cycle of life by attaining mental enlightenment/nirvana or godly immortality/Buddhahood/bodhisattva.

....... Atheists "falsely" believe that they will just die, return to dust/atoms and become nothingness = atheists tend to enjoy life while they can = there is no afterlife of hell or heaven.

Etc.

 

No one religion or non-religion can really prove their point, ie it can only be proven after one dies. Hence, the New Testament emphasizes the need for faith by Christian believers - HEBREWS.11:1 = Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

Edited by discipler77

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3 hours ago, discipler77 said:

Salvation means being saved from hell when fallen Man dies = the saved will be going to heaven after death = everlasting/eternal life.(LUKE.16:19-31, MATTHEW.5:27-30, REVELATION.21:8)

....... As per GALATIANS.2:16-17 and JOHN.3:14-18, only faith in Jesus Christ justifies fallen Man for salvation, not the works of the Law. Because of Adam's Original Sin, fallen Man need to be saved from hell when they die - ROMANS.5:12. This should be the Christians' perspective. OTOH, ...

 

The Jews still "falsely" believe that they are justified for salvation(= saved from hell when they die) by keeping or doing the works of the Law or Moses Law. Similarly for the Muslims and the works of the Sharia/Muhammad Law.

....... Buddhists "falsely" believe that they will die and be reincarnated into a cycle of past lives depending on their good works/merits, eg will be reborn as a good  rich ruler through good works/merits. Their final aim is to end the cycle of life by attaining mental enlightenment/nirvana or godly immortality/Buddhahood/bodhisattva.

....... Atheists "falsely" believe that they will just die, return to dust/atoms and become nothingness = atheists tend to enjoy life while they can = there is no afterlife of hell or heaven.

Etc.

 

No one religion or non-religion can really prove their point, ie it can only be proven after one dies. Hence, the New Testament emphasizes the need for faith by Christian believers - HEBREWS.11:1 = Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

I do not know how your bible words Gal 2:16 because some versions have changed the wording in this verse.  The KJV says that Jesus's faith made us just, not man's faith.  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith "OF" Jesus Christ. Some versions have changed the word "OF" to "IN"..  I believe there are some scriptures indicating that man can justify himself in certain matters, but not for eternal justification. As far as John 3:14-18 is concerned, if you compare it with 1 Cor 2:14, you will see that the natural man, void of the indwelling Holy Spirit, can not discern spiritual things, such as, believing spiritual things, confessing to spiritual things, repenting of spiritual things, accepting a spiritual God, etc.  In your referenced text, the word "believeth" is in the present tense, not will believe, which is in the future tense, and even at that, the man that has not been regenerated cannot believe in spiritual things, so, these verses are pertaining to "believers only".  Rom 5:12 does not suggest the natural man's perspective.  The only way that the natural man can become spiritual is explained in Eph2 especially in verse 5, when he was regenerated he was still "dead in sins" (dead to spiritual things).  

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6 hours ago, Becky said:

The word salvation as used in:

Gen_49:18  I have waited  for thy salvation,H3444 O LORD.

 

Feminine passive participle of H3467; something saved, that is, (abstractly) deliverance; hence aid, victory, prosperity: - deliverance, health, help (-ing), salvation, save, saving (health), welfare.


I think there is a bit more to the word then a simple deliverance. 

This site is blessed to have a Greek/Hebrew scholar on board. Maybe he will expound on this .
 

I believe the salvation (deliverance) in Gen 49:18 has reference to Gad being delivered (saved) from those he was warring against, not eternal salvation, correct me, if I see it wrong. 

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17 minutes ago, Frosty said:

I believe the salvation (deliverance) in Gen 49:18 has reference to Gad being delivered (saved) from those he was warring against, not eternal salvation, correct me, if I see it wrong. 

Although salvation of the soul-spirit has been possible down through the ages, it was not generally sought after. The ancient Israelites had to obey God because He was their leader. Most of the time in the stories of the OT saved meant spared from death. That said, a few would go on and seek the Lord as He drawed them (Enoch - Noah). Each dispensation will have more than the last, of people taking advantage of salvation as we know it. During the millennial rule, most will have true salvation.  :RpS_thumbup:

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14 minutes ago, deade said:

Although salvation of the soul-spirit has been possible down through the ages, it was not generally sought after. The ancient Israelites had to obey God because He was their leader. Most of the time in the stories of the OT saved meant spared from death. That said, a few would go on and seek the Lord as He drawed them (Enoch - Noah). Each dispensation will have more than the last, of people taking advantage of salvation as we know it. During the millennial rule, most will have true salvation.  :RpS_thumbup:

Would you mind giving me some scripture references along with your comments?  Thank you.

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I think Salvation (deliverance) can have various meanings depending on context.

 

For example,

We can be saved from God's wrath (due penalty towards sinners).

Therefore, we are saved from God, by God, for God.

 

God bless,

William

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26 minutes ago, William said:

I think Salvation (deliverance) can have various meanings depending on context.

 

For example,

We can be saved from God's wrath (due penalty towards sinners).

Therefore, we are saved from God, by God, for God.

 

God bless,

William

After we have been regenerated and we commit a sin, then we repent of that sin, and God forgives us, have we received salvation (deliverance) from that sin.  Would that salvation be an eternal salvation or a salvation we receive here on earth?

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7 hours ago, Frosty said:

After we have been regenerated and we commit a sin, then we repent of that sin, and God forgives us, have we received salvation (deliverance) from that sin.  Would that salvation be an eternal salvation or a salvation we receive here on earth?

When you say salvation or deliverance I'm getting the impression that you're referring to something much deeper such as the source or cause of our sin. We may repent of our sin, but we are not technically delivered from the believer's source or cause of our sin while in the flesh. Upon Glorification we receive new bodies animated by the Holy Spirit and therefore we must have faith of our future hope in God when sin will be a past issue.

 

Upon the earth I'd just like to point out that we believers are delivered from God's wrath but because God loves us we experience his chastisement. We may not experience wrath but we do experience God's punishment. This is not to suggest that all of God's creation does not experience God's patience or a common grace which is exhibited to everyone:

 

Matthew 5:43-45 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

 

God bless,

William

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11 hours ago, Frosty said:

I believe there are some scriptures indicating that man can justify himself in certain matters, but not for eternal justification.

To prevent from going off topic, we need to first define salvation.

 

Jesus Christ came down to earth from heaven, mainly to gift salvation or being saved from hell or eternal life to those Jews who believe or have faith in Him, and not to re-teach the Jews on how to keep Moses Law = earthly/temporal salvation or being saved from the curses of God. The Old Testament Law and Prophets had already taught the Jews on how to keep the Law, eg DEUT.28, MATTHEW.19:16-23. The New Testament gospel is mainly about eternal salvation.

....... Later, this gift of eternal salvation by faith in Jesus Christ was extended to the Gentiles through apostle Paul - ACTS.9:15 & ACTS.15.

 

Remember that only faith in Jesus Christ can justify for eternal salvation. The works of keeping the Law can never justify for eternal salvation because no Man can be righteous enough for the kingdom of heaven, ie fallen Man needs the righteousness or works of Christ.

 

HEBREWS.5: = ... 7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.

 

9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.

 

12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Edited by discipler77

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15 hours ago, deade said:

Although salvation of the soul-spirit has been possible down through the ages, it was not generally sought after. The ancient Israelites had to obey God because He was their leader. Most of the time in the stories of the OT saved meant spared from death. That said, a few would go on and seek the Lord as He drawed them (Enoch - Noah). Each dispensation will have more than the last, of people taking advantage of salvation as we know it. During the millennial rule, most will have true salvation.  :RpS_thumbup:

What do you mean by "taking advantage of salvation as we know it"?

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6 hours ago, William said:

When you say salvation or deliverance I'm getting the impression that you're referring to something much deeper such as the source or cause of our sin. We may repent of our sin, but we are not technically delivered from the believer's source or cause of our sin while in the flesh. Upon Glorification we receive new bodies animated by the Holy Spirit and therefore we must have faith of our future hope in God when sin will be a past issue.

 

Upon the earth I'd just like to point out that we believers are delivered from God's wrath but because God loves us we experience his chastisement. We may not experience wrath but we do experience God's punishment. This is not to suggest that all of God's creation does not experience God's patience or a common grace which is exhibited to everyone:

 

Matthew 5:43-45 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

 

God bless,

William

Rev 3:19 - As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; be zealous therefore, and repent.  It would stand to reason, that if God does not chasten someone, they must not be someone that he loves, such as, in Ps 73:5 - (talking about the wicked) - They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they "PLAGUED" like other men. Plagued, according to Strong's Greek meaning is "DIVINLY PUNISHED".  Would this mean that God's common grace is not exhibited to everyone? 

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4 hours ago, discipler77 said:

To prevent from going off topic, we need to first define salvation.

 

Jesus Christ came down to earth from heaven, mainly to gift salvation or being saved from hell or eternal life to those Jews who believe or have faith in Him, and not to re-teach the Jews on how to keep Moses Law = earthly/temporal salvation or being saved from the curses of God. The Old Testament Law and Prophets had already taught the Jews on how to keep the Law, eg DEUT.28, MATTHEW.19:16-23. The New Testament gospel is mainly about eternal salvation.

....... Later, this gift of eternal salvation by faith in Jesus Christ was extended to the Gentiles through apostle Paul - ACTS.9:15 & ACTS.15.

 

Remember that only faith in Jesus Christ can justify for eternal salvation. The works of keeping the Law can never justify for eternal salvation because no Man can be righteous enough for the kingdom of heaven, ie fallen Man needs the righteousness or works of Christ.

 

HEBREWS.5: = ... 7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.

 

9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.

 

12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Our faith in Jesus Christ is not the cause of us being made just.  Gal 2:16 says it is Jesus's faith (faithfulness to go to the cross) that justify us. Some versions have changed the word "OF" to :IN" trying to make it man's faith. There is a deliverance (salvation) for us, after we have been regenerated, to have faith in Christ, but it is a deliverance we experience here on earth, not eternally.  We do not have spiritual faith until we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which comes with regeneration, as faith is a fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5)., unlike the natural man as described in 1 Cor 2:14, who cannot discern spiritual things.  Heb 5:9 - He became the author of eternal salvation "to all who obey him".  The only way the natural man will obey him is after he has been regenerated, as explained in Eph 2 especially in verse 5, when he was "yet dead in sins" unable to discern spiritual things. 

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30 minutes ago, Frosty said:

Gal 2:16 says it is Jesus's faith (faithfulness to go to the cross) that justify us. Some versions have changed the word "OF" to :IN" trying to make it man's faith.

GALATIANS.2:16 (KJV) = 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

GALATIANS.3:26 (KJV) = 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

 

JOHN.3:16 (KJV) = 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

2TIMOTHY.3:15 (KJV) = 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

 

Likely, the King James Version is not as good a translation as the NKJV.

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2 hours ago, discipler77 said:

GALATIANS.2:16 (KJV) = 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

GALATIANS.3:26 (KJV) = 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

 

JOHN.3:16 (KJV) = 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

2TIMOTHY.3:15 (KJV) = 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

 

Likely, the King James Version is not as good a translation as the NKJV.

Gal 2:16 - even we have "believed in Jesus that he justified us".  JOHN 3:16 - The believing is not what makes you have eternal life, but it is the evidence that God has regenerated you.  The natural man cannot believe in spiritual things before he is regenerated.  2 Tim 3:15 - The scriptures makes a regenerated person wise or knowledgeable of the fact that Christ Jesus made him just.  The natural man, without regeneration, will never become wise, and  knowledgeable of the scriptures  

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Saved like a lifeguard saves you but your already dead and bloated at the bottom of the pool.

 

All thorough Scriputure Christ work on our behalf is described as a particular payment of dept, a ransom for sinners, and reconciliation between God and man.

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52 minutes ago, Frosty said:

Gal 2:16 - even we have "believed in Jesus that he justified us".  JOHN 3:16 - The believing is not what makes you have eternal life, but it is the evidence that God has regenerated you.  The natural man cannot believe in spiritual things before he is regenerated.  2 Tim 3:15 - The scriptures makes a regenerated person wise or knowledgeable of the fact that Christ Jesus made him just.  The natural man, without regeneration, will never become wise, and  knowledgeable of the scriptures  

1TIMOTHY.4: = The Great Apostasy

1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

 

2THESSALONIANS.2: = The Great Apostasy

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

 

1CORINTHIANS.5:4-5 = 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

Whether regenerated or spiritually born-again, Christians may still lose their salvation by departing from the faith, renouncing the faith, abandoning the faith, falling away from the faith, losing faith, etc.

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7 minutes ago, discipler77 said:

1TIMOTHY.4: = The Great Apostasy

1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

 

2THESSALONIANS.2: = The Great Apostasy

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

 

1CORINTHIANS.5:4-5 = 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

Whether regenerated or spiritually born-again, Christians may still lose their salvation by departing from the faith, renouncing the faith, abandoning the faith, falling away from the faith, losing faith, etc.

Jesus saved all of the people that his Father gave him by paying for their sins on the cross.  John 6:39, Jesus said that he would not lose any of them, but raise them up at the last day. This verse does not say, if they commit any sins while they are here on earth that he was not going to save them.  Look around you at how few go to church as they did previously.  If Jesus died for them, they are still going to heaven.  John 10:27-28-29.  Rom 8:35-39. 

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On 9/30/2018 at 5:05 PM, Frosty said:

Would you mind giving me some scripture references along with your comments?  Thank you.

I am sorry frosty, I answered this post yesterday but apparently I didn't get it posted. Luckily I had some of it in a Word file.

Old testament references to God accessibility in that dispensation:

 

2 Chr. 15:2  "And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you."

 

Again, the Lord talking to Israel:

Isa. 55:6 "Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:"

 

You say those were directed at specific people. This says it speaks to us also:

2 Pet.1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."   :RpS_thumbup:

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13 hours ago, Frosty said:

What do you mean by "taking advantage of salvation as we know it"?

I was referring to New Testament Salvation: Like receiving the Holy Spirit, regeneration through the word and life everlasting upon Jesus' return. That is what we associate with salvation.   :classic_cool:

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13 hours ago, Frosty said:

Jesus saved all of the people that his Father gave him by paying for their sins on the cross.  John 6:39, Jesus said that he would not lose any of them, but raise them up at the last day. This verse does not say, if they commit any sins while they are here on earth that he was not going to save them.  Look around you at how few go to church as they did previously.  If Jesus died for them, they are still going to heaven.  John 10:27-28-29.  Rom 8:35-39

Yes, Jesus Christ will save those who want to be saved from hell, but not those who do not want to be saved, eg Judas Iscariot and Pontius Pilate. Jesus/God does not force anyone to be saved or unsaved.

 

Fallen Man have free will or the freedom of choice to believe or not to believe in Christ for salvation - they are not mindless or brainless robots who are fully manipulated by other superior beings, ie misguided/misled/ignorant/foolish Christians may still choose to follow Satan/mammon instead of Christ/God. Christians can choose to keep or lose the faith during trials, tribulations and persecution, as per the New Testament Scripture, eg the Parable of the Sower and the Parable of the wheat and tares at MATTHEW.13.

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5 hours ago, discipler77 said:

Yes, Jesus Christ will save those who want to be saved from hell, but not those who do not want to be saved, eg Judas Iscariot and Pontius Pilate. Jesus/God does not force anyone to be saved or unsaved.

 

Fallen Man have free will or the freedom of choice to believe or not to believe in Christ for salvation - they are not mindless or brainless robots who are fully manipulated by other superior beings, ie misguided/misled/ignorant/foolish Christians may still choose to follow Satan/mammon instead of Christ/God. Christians can choose to keep or lose the faith during trials, tribulations and persecution, as per the New Testament Scripture, eg the Parable of the Sower and the Parable of the wheat and tares at MATTHEW.13.

God gave man a free choice as to how man wants to live his life here on earth, as indicated in the scriptures where he tells us to choose certain things,  but it is by God's choice, and by his sovereign grace, that man is delivered eternally(Eph 2:5). In regards to eternal deliverance, this takes man's works out of the picture, and gives God all of the praise and credit. The parable of the Sower is talking about a regenerated person's mind, based on his spiritual knowledge.  The parable of the wheat and the tares is talking about the wheat being the elect and the tares being the non-elect.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, deade said:

I was referring to New Testament Salvation: Like receiving the Holy Spirit, regeneration through the word and life everlasting upon Jesus' return. That is what we associate with salvation.   :classic_cool:

There is a (deliverance-salvation) here in time, that we can take advantage of, but regarding our eternal deliverance, the natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, has no ability to take advantage of his salvation, according to Eph 2:5, when he was "yet dead in sins".  Strong's Greek meaning of "salvation" is "a deliverance".  Most of the salvation scriptures are pertaining to timely deliverances of the regenerated person, as indicated by accepting, believing, repenting, confessing etc. 

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12 hours ago, deade said:

I am sorry frosty, I answered this post yesterday but apparently I didn't get it posted. Luckily I had some of it in a Word file.

Old testament references to God accessibility in that dispensation:

 

2 Chr. 15:2  "And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you."

 

Again, the Lord talking to Israel:

Isa. 55:6 "Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:"

 

You say those were directed at specific people. This says it speaks to us also:

2 Pet.1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."   :RpS_thumbup:

The regenerate person can lose his fellowship with God when he yields to the desires of his flesh, until he repents and God forgives him. but he, at all times, was his child, just as in the event of the, so called, prodigal son.  A lot of people do not understand just how bad we children of God can be by our fleshly nature, that we still carry with us, though we have been regenerated, as Paul explains in Gal 5:17.  The natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, will not seek after God, also explained in (I cannot put my finger on the scripture, but I will try to quote it) God looked down from heaven upon the children of men to see if there were any that did seek after him.  They were all gone back.  They were altogether filthy, there were none that did good, no, not one. 

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