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jeremiah1five

The So-Called Five-Fold Ministries

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Ephesians 4:11 (KJV)
11  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

 

These ministries are a part of a Biblical Church.

 

The ministry of apostles did not end with the death of John.

 

Nor with the collection of scrolls that make up our New Testament.

 

These ministries are essential to a Biblical Church.
 

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There's a difference between revelation and illumination. Lemme ask you whether revelation or the process of revelation has ceased today? If revelation has ceased have any offices which were held also ceased? 

 

God bless,

William 

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Ephesians 4:11-14

11And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherdsc and teachers,d 12to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,e to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes

 

In 13-14 we see that there is a goal, that is to bring about the fully equipped, matured church. The role of the apostles was foundational, not continual.

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3 hours ago, William said:

There's a difference between revelation and illumination. Lemme ask you whether revelation or the process of revelation has ceased today? If revelation has ceased have any offices which were held also ceased? 

 

God bless,

William 

William, I hold neither has ceased today.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Innerfire89 said:

Ephesians 4:11-14

11And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherdsc and teachers,d 12to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,e to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes

 

In 13-14 we see that there is a goal, that is to bring about the fully equipped, matured church. The role of the apostles was foundational, not continual.

Innerfire, these gifts are to and for the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ?

 

The Scripture is to and for Covenant believers today (Church - called out [ones].)

 

The apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher are for the benefit of the Church and not the world.

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50 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

William, I hold neither has ceased today.

 

 

Are you an apostle? And if so or not should I write everything down from a living apostle and add it to scripture? Do you also believe in signs and wonders to authenticate the office of apostle? If not, should I take their word for it? If so which signs and wonders should I ask for to authenticate the office?

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48 minutes ago, William said:

Are you an apostle? And if so or not should I write everything down from a living apostle and add it to scripture? Do you also believe in signs and wonders to authenticate the office of apostle? If not, should I take their word for it? If so which signs and wonders should I ask for to authenticate the office?

No, I am not an apostle.

 

The canon is closed.

 

For now.

 

What are signs? What are wonders?

 

We are not all apostles. We are not all thumbs in the body of Christ.

 

But the apostle is Biblical. Even today. 

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11 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

No, I am not an apostle.

 

The canon is closed.

 

For now.

 

What are signs? What are wonders?

 

We are not all apostles. We are not all thumbs in the body of Christ.

 

But the apostle is Biblical. Even today. 

Biblical signs and wonders are used to authenticate the office of apostles. If the canon is closed then the revelatory process is completed. If the revelatory process is completed then why the office of modern apostle? Are there lesser apostles today then there were in the foundational build up of the church? 

 

No doubt, the office of apostle is biblical. Are you introducing a standard by which to hold apostles today accountable such as sola scriptura? 

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Didn't an apostle have to see the resurrected Lord Jesus?

1 Corinthians 9:1

 

I think the Greek word can apply to other people who haven't so in that it is used in a different sense (Romans 16:7).

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1 hour ago, jeremiah1five said:

Innerfire, these gifts are to and for the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ?

 

The Scripture is to and for Covenant believers today (Church - called out [ones].)

 

The apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher are for the benefit of the Church and not the world.

I didn't say anything about the world.

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On 9/28/2018 at 6:30 PM, Faber said:

Didn't an apostle have to see the resurrected Lord Jesus?

1 Corinthians 9:1

 

I think the Greek word can apply to other people who haven't so in that it is used in a different sense (Romans 16:7).

 I don't know the answer, but I think an Apostle had to have seen the Resurrected Lord Jesus. Luke was taught directly by an Apostle and was an Evangelist. Someone correct me if wrong, but was direct relation with Jesus or an Apostle one of the principles used in deciding which books were to be canonized?

 

And consider 2 Corinthians 12:12 The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works.
 

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Paul described the Church like a human body (1 co. 12).

The hand in the Body represents service, or service rendered.

Each digit of the hand corresponds to each office of the Five Gift Ministries.

The apostle is the thumb. The prophet is the index or pointing finger. The evangelist is the middle or long finger describing 'the reach' of the evangelist. The pastor is the ring-finger for he/she is married to the Church. The teacher is the pinky-finger which balances the hand. If you lose one digit of you hand the function of the hand is crippled or diminished. Man is the only mammal with an opposing digit, meaning each finger can touch the other four fingers. Apes cannot do this.

 

Christ is Apostle:

Hebrews 3:1 (KJV)
1  Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
 

Christ is Prophet:

John 4:19 (KJV)
19  The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. (et.al)

 

Christ is Evangelist:

Matthew 4:17 (KJV)
17  From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (et.al)

 

Christ is Pastor:

John 10:14 (KJV)
14  I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
 

Christ is Teacher:

John 3:2 (KJV)
2  The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
 

These ministries/calls are the manifestation of Christ in His people. To deny any of these truths in the Church today is to deny Christ.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

Paul described the Church like a human body (1 co. 12).

The hand in the Body represents service, or service rendered.

Each digit of the hand corresponds to each office of the Five Gift Ministries.

The apostle is the thumb. The prophet is the index or pointing finger. The evangelist is the middle or long finger describing 'the reach' of the evangelist. The pastor is the ring-finger for he/she is married to the Church. The teacher is the pinky-finger which balances the hand. If you lose one digit of you hand the function of the hand is crippled or diminished. Man is the only mammal with an opposing digit, meaning each finger can touch the other four fingers. Apes cannot do this.

 

Christ is Apostle:

Hebrews 3:1 (KJV)
1  Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
 

Christ is Prophet:

John 4:19 (KJV)
19  The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. (et.al)

 

Christ is Evangelist:

Matthew 4:17 (KJV)
17  From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (et.al)

 

Christ is Pastor:

John 10:14 (KJV)
14  I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
 

Christ is Teacher:

John 3:2 (KJV)
2  The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
 

These ministries/calls are the manifestation of Christ in His people. To deny any of these truths in the Church today is to deny Christ.

 

 

Brother, you are not addressing or directly answering but speaking over. I ask that you please pause and consider what is being brought to your attention.

 

Do you agree that if God gave us "signs and wonders" in order to authenticate an office or person that the act of authentication is in our best interest? What do you suppose the consequences may be if we ignored the authentication process in God's word for the office of Apostle?

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19 minutes ago, William said:

What about Luke? I don't know the answer, but I think an Apostle had to have seen the Resurrected Lord Jesus or be taught directly by one of them. Someone correct me if wrong, but was this principal used in deciding which books were to be canonized?

 

And consider 2 Corinthians 12:12 The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works.
 

We all do not have the same ministry. Each individual in the Body of Christ is different. An apostle did not have to see the Lord. Paul was apostle as was Epahroditus - I see Epaphroditus as an apostle's apostle as he ministered to Paul in his time but each with different call, each with different spiritual gift(s) and number, each with different edumacation, each with different temperament, each with different personalities, each with a different pound (natural gift), and each being used of God differently. For Paul his was with signs and wonders, but not everyone is given a sign or wonder. There is an inner witness in the individual and an outer witness to the individual - but each being used primarily for the Church brethren. These 5 Gift Ministries are given to the Church and not to the world of unbelievers at large for we do not know who is to be saved - unless the Lord reveals this to the one being used of God. There is no "apostle to the Gentiles" for the apostle is given to the Church:

 

It says:

Ephesians 4:12 (KJV)
12  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
 

It does not say, "for the perfecting of the world."

It does not say, "for the work of the world."

It does not say, "for the edifying of the body of the world."

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5 minutes ago, William said:

Brother, you are not addressing or directly answering but speaking over. I ask that you please pause and consider what is being brought to your attention.

 

Do you agree that if God gave us "signs and wonders" in order to authenticate an office or person that the act of authentication is in our best interest? What do you suppose the consequences may be if we ignored the authentication process in God's word for the office of Apostle?

I saw several questions or statements that could be answered in one response. Plus, it allowed me to not repeat myself.

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21 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

An apostle did not have to see the Lord.

Didn't the Apostle Paul claim to see the Risen Lord and upon that basis wasn't the Risen Lord central to Paul's teaching?

 

20 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

I saw several questions or statements that could be answered in one response. Plus, it allowed me to not repeat myself.

This simply cannot continue. If you're looking for one way preaching then I'll consider what you're using this board for. If you want actual dialogue I ask that you take the time to answer the questions and posts put to you with consideration of the time they take to compose.

We receive a lot of people from the internet that want a soap box, have horrible doctrine and they want to preach it. I ask you to consider and avoid this problem.

 

God bless,

William

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9 hours ago, William said:

Didn't the Apostle Paul claim to see the Risen Lord and upon that basis wasn't the Risen Lord central to Paul's teaching?

 

This simply cannot continue. If you're looking for one way preaching then I'll consider what you're using this board for. If you want actual dialogue I ask that you take the time to answer the questions and posts put to you with consideration of the time they take to compose.

We receive a lot of people from the internet that want a soap box, have horrible doctrine and they want to preach it. I ask you to consider and avoid this problem.

 

God bless,

William

That's the basis Paul used to verify his call as apostle. He said he was one born out of due time. 

There are 12 apostles of the Lamb. These are foundational to the beginning of the fellowship/church at Jerusalem. 

But there were also other fellowships in Asia Minor and even across the world since then. If Eph. 2:20 is true then each fellowship must have a foundational apostle and/or prophet or that is NOT a Church plant of God. 

 

I'm not preaching. 

 

No true-born is an island. We are not all like the Dead Sea where water flows in but doesn't flow out which results in high salt content and dead.


I will consider. I'll make sincere attempt to do that. Thank you.

 

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16 hours ago, Innerfire89 said:

Ephesians 4:11-14

11And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherdsc and teachers,d 12to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,e to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes

 

In 13-14 we see that there is a goal, that is to bring about the fully equipped, matured church. The role of the apostles was foundational, not continual.

Ephesians 2:19-22 (KJV)
19  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

Paul addresses Gentile believers baptized at the moment of their salvation into the 'household of God' and "with the saints."

For every church-plant of God there must be an apostle or prophet or that church is not of God.

To deny the Life of Christ in His people is to deny Christ Himself.

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13 hours ago, William said:

Biblical signs and wonders are used to authenticate the office of apostles. If the canon is closed then the revelatory process is completed. If the revelatory process is completed then why the office of modern apostle? Are there lesser apostles today then there were in the foundational build up of the church? 

 

No doubt, the office of apostle is biblical. Are you introducing a standard by which to hold apostles today accountable such as sola scriptura? 

There are no 'lesser' apostles. The natural order is God, Christ, man, woman.

 

The spiritual order is God, Christ, everyone else in the Body of Christ. It is horizontal after Christ.

 

The canon is closed for now. Does God reveal truth to you? Does God illuminate still? Both exist today at a individual level and corporate level else there would be no Reformation or Presbyterianism etc.

 

What if the real 1 Corinthian letter is discovered in some cave? What would you do with it if in charge of its keeping? Declare the canon is closed and God no longer speaks to us as He says in John 14 and 16 et.al? What God began at Pentecost is still continues to this day. He started it He will close it at His coming and we are restored back into Trinity.

 

What is an apostle/apostolos? All it means is "commissioned." Would you claim God does not commission His servants today? How can you hold a stick without the thumb?

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11 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

What if the real 1 Corinthian letter is discovered in some cave? 

 Does that mean the 1 Corinthians letter we have now is not real (a fraud)?

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In reading this thread i  get the impression, from his own words ,  @jeremiah1five does not believe the Scriptures are complete therefore  seems to me he does not believe believe the Scriptures. 

This is what cults are made of, man will subtily emit or add too Scripture. Placing himself/herself above the the Scripture , while declaring the opposite.  

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1 hour ago, Faber said:

 Does that mean the 1 Corinthians letter we have now is not real (a fraud)?

No. Paul refers to a letter in 1 Cor. that he wrote to them prior. And for God's own purpose and reason it is not available.

Consider the Dead Sea Scrolls. Found in a cave in 1947. 1900 years (roughly) after the Ascension and 400 years after the Reformation. THAT was revelation AND illumination.

So, was that a fraud?

 

*What may happen is a shift of numbers.

 

1 hour ago, Becky said:

In reading this thread i  get the impression, from his own words ,  @jeremiah1five does not believe the Scriptures are complete therefore  seems to me he does not believe believe the Scriptures. 

This is what cults are made of, man will subtily emit or add too Scripture. Placing himself/herself above the the Scripture , while declaring the opposite.  

I submit:

 

1 John 4:1 (KJV)
1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
 

I don't mind being tested IF one KNOWS how to test.

 

 

14 hours ago, Innerfire89 said:

I didn't say anything about the world.

I stand (or sit) corrected.

 

14 hours ago, Faber said:

Didn't an apostle have to see the resurrected Lord Jesus?

1 Corinthians 9:1

 

I think the Greek word can apply to other people who haven't so in that it is used in a different sense (Romans 16:7).

Very good. But not in different sense.

Edited by jeremiah1five
*added statement/question
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38 minutes ago, jeremiah1five said:

I submit:

 

1 John 4:1 (KJV)
1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
 

I don't mind being tested IF one KNOWS how to test.

Tested back to the Scripture which you do not believe is the Word of God.  

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22 minutes ago, Becky said:

Tested back to the Scripture which you do not believe is the Word of God.  

PROVE I said that, Becky.

 

IF I didn't say that and you are wrong what does Scripture/God call you?

 

Or is that the typical treatment of Christ and Christ in me?

 

Whatsoever you have done to the least of these MY BRETHREN YOU have done it to me.

 

William, I discern you are fair. Would you write me?
 

Edited by jeremiah1five

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5 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

William, I discern you are fair. Would you write me?

I encourage you to write Becky through Private Message on this board.

 

Lemme introduce the standard by which I think is fair, Scripture:

 

Matthew 18:15-16 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.

 

Consider the same standard for the office of Apostle:

 

20 hours ago, William said:

2 Corinthians 12:12 The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works.

Also note:

 

1 John 4:1 KJV Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

 

What standard was applied to OT Prophets and what were the consequences of false "prophecy" or "blasphemy" in God's name?

 

For example, a Prophet did not speak from themselves but were a mouthpiece of God. Since a Prophet never spoke from themselves but from God, God would never contradict Himself, therefore a Prophet could never contradict a prior Prophet. If a Prophet prophecized about the future then those events according to what was prophecized must come to pass. Otherwise, they are a false Prophet. How many attempts were a false Prophet given and what was the OT penalty for a false Prophet?

 

In the NT is the office of Prophet still open? If the revelatory process is completed and the Canon is closed who or what does a modern office of Prophet serve?

 

5 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

Or is that the typical treatment of Christ and Christ in me?

Is that where Jesus Christ ascended to? Is Christ or Jesus' Spirit in you?

 

If Christ is in you are you suggesting that the office of Christ is fulfilled in you? If so, may we introduce a standard by which to authenticate your office?

 

In this world there are hangers and nailers. We're not supposed to be nailing Jesus Christ to the cross every day but rather we should be nailers crucifying our flesh every day.

 

God bless,

William

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