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William

Genesis 3:4-5 question about deity

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Genesis 3:4-5,  But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

 

I am examining the lie of Satan in Genesis 3:4-5. Is Satan implying that man will be "god" or "God"? And how would you differentiate between the two? Please also consider touching upon the eternal state of your definition. For example, can "gods" exists from a point of time or have a beginning but not necessarily an end?

 

Thanks and God bless,

William

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I dont know how to answer that one. But perhaps the word like has more baring then we think. They became like God in knowing good and evil, but not that they became like God because of that knowledge.

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9 minutes ago, Hitch said:

'Knowing good and evil'   as used  infers deciding , rather than simply understanding.

 

Ok, verse 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened", can a god or God have a qualitative change of mind? In other words can either "not see" and then "see"?

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Please bear with me and be gracious. Could anyone chime in and just express your insight, thoughts, etc. Lots of the questions or comments posed are helping me identify objections and tackle clarification on a study.

 

Can anyone elaborate on "seeing" or having "eyes opened" in Genesis 3:5?

 

"Your eyes shall be opened is an expression denoting the acquisition of discernment to apprehend that which before had been hidden from ordinary sight." - Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges

 

Ok, given that definition my question, how much or how little does "to see" have to do with what was hidden from ordinary sight in the office of priest or prophet?

 

For example, John 9:39-41 & what follows, Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind.” Some of the Pharisees near him heard these things, and said to him, “Are we also blind?” Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.
 

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2 hours ago, William said:

Ok, verse 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened", can a god or God have a qualitative change of mind? In other words can either "not see" and then "see"?

I suggest you consider the speaker.

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20 minutes ago, Hitch said:

I suggest you consider the speaker.

How so? By speaker, I take that you are referring to Satan, and not the author such as Moses, or the Holy Spirit? And I'm somewhat intrigued about how a lie can so closely parallel truth that together they become grey. Just as black and white parallel lines when seen from various distances. 

 

God bless,

William 

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7 minutes ago, William said:

How so? By speaker, I take that you are referring to Satan, and not the author such as Moses, or the Holy Spirit? And I'm somewhat intrigued about how a lie can so closely parallel truth that it becomes grey. Just as black and white parallel lines when seen from various distances. 

 

God bless,

William 

He was successful  charming Eve,  he even tried it with  Christ,' All these things  I will give thee' as though  he ,not God, controls the king.

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14 minutes ago, Hitch said:

He was successful  charming Eve,  he even tried it with  Christ,' All these things  I will give thee' as though  he ,not God, controls the king.

Right, and Satan just "tempted" Jesus in a way that only God could. Do you think Satan asking Jesus to turn stones into bread as God could only do would be tempting? What Satan just asked of Jesus was incredible. Not that God can be tempted but that an outside influence may attempt to tempt Him. If God performed miracles or signs and wonders in order to gain following (kingdoms of the world) how would that differ from God's plan? We see that Jesus was followed by people and after Jesus offered bread (John 6:51) they departed Him (John 6:66). Perhaps if Jesus performed a miracle of turning stones into bread they may of ate? I can see them now nibbling on Jesus' arm. :classic_laugh:

 

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2 hours ago, William said:

“Are we also blind?” Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.

Chomp.... I reckon the answer to that question  is here in your quote.  Each miracle stands as a witness for the Prosecution.

 

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7 minutes ago, Hitch said:

Chomp.... I reckon the answer to that question  is here in your quote.  Each miracle stands as a witness for the Prosecution.

 

Thank you.

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Is wanting to be a god necessarily bad? We have attributes of God being made in His image and up until the fall man was not even condemned to death. So, I'm thinking that there must be a difference between what we had before and then after the act of taking fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

 

The very act of Adam naming all living creatures was an exercise of dominion and judgment which requires discernment from one creature to another in the naming of all living things. Was this good? And how did this differ from evil?

 

Lemme ask while on the point of gods. Historically, were gods the personification of Nature's laws which are subject to the almighty God? I do not believe there are "autonomous" laws in themselves, but they are subject to a higher Law Giver. Can a god rule of good only despite having intimate knowledge of evil or knowing evil?

 

God bless,

William

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On ‎9‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 2:27 PM, William said:

Genesis 3:4-5,  But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Maybe I am over simplifying the verse, but to me the only lie in those verses is you will not die.

Verse 5 to me is a truth not a lie

Their eyes were opened, they knew sin for the first time, they knew they were naked for the first time. God knows what good and evil are,  

After eating the apple they were like God in knowing good and evil. I think that's all it means

Verse 6

 

6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise,

 

Eve is thinking the tree is going to give her wisdom not that she will be a god. she is going to learn something and she does. She learns what sin is, she learns what separation from God is, she learns what evil is

 

Its kind of like telling a child to eat all your veggies, so they can be like daddy big and strong. Eat and you wont be daddy, but you'll be big and strong like daddy

 

Satan said eat and you will be like God knowing good and evil. I don't think he is saying eat and be a god, but eat and you will know good and evil like God does, I think verse 6 backs that up

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Joh 8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 
 

Was the phrasing of verse 5 a quote of satan or a descriptive phrase. He whispers in our ears subtil lies as often as he speaks. 

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4 hours ago, Guppy said:

Maybe I am over simplifying the verse, but to me the only lie in those verses is you will not die.

Verse 5 to me is a truth not a lie

Their eyes were opened, they knew sin for the first time, they knew they were naked for the first time. God knows what good and evil are, 

Hi Guppy,

 

Nice to see you back!

 

Lemme ask, do you think a person's eyes are not open until they sin and see the affects of sin? In other words when a person is dead in sin and trespasses are they then really conscious of sin?

 

4 hours ago, Guppy said:

After eating the apple they were like God in knowing good and evil. I think that's all it means

I do not really care to go into which fruit is the actual physical fruit here like an apple, fig, etc., but what is fruit? And a question about the fruit of the tree "Good and Evil", what was the fruit of Satan in which Eve repeated in the act of offering it to her husband?

 

Consider the lie in verse 6, "So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate."

 

Here are my thoughts, deception has an element of lying, not always from an external source or influence but sometimes inwardly. The Serpent first lied and offered the lie as an alternative to God's commandment drawing the woman to question God's will. Second, Eve lied to herself, she was self-deceived and the falsehood became truthful 1 Timothy 2:14 "and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." Eve then repeated the lie in the act of giving Adam the forbidden fruit.

 

There are several sins Eve committed here in light of both the Old and New Testaments which follow. I wouldn't mind examining the lie of Satan or Eve's sins, however, I'd just like to point out that Adam and Eve had access to the Tree of Life up until this point. Genesis 2:9 "And out of the ground the Lord God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." Adam "alone" exercised dominion by the act of naming every living creature which requires both judgment and discernment from one living creature to another. God commanded Adam to do this, and obviously the command was twisted into something else and Eve desired this authority which was given to Adam in headship. Notice the contrasting punishment of God to Eve in Genesis 3:16, "Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.”
 

Lastly, do you think this pretty much sums up the deceitful lying doctrine of Satan from Genesis 3:5, they'll be like gods, and thus independent, able to rule over themselves apart from God, and secondly, there is not one God, but many gods; each is sovereign over himself or herself?

 

God bless,

William

 

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@Guppy Did Adam die the day he ate the fruit of the tree in the garden?

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On ‎10‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 2:37 AM, William said:

Lemme ask, do you think a person's eyes are not open until they sin and see the affects of sin? In other words when a person is dead in sin and trespasses are they then really conscious of sin?

I do believe people dead in sin know the difference between right and wrong, but Adam had not yet sinned. Satan had not yet whispered in their ears. I question did they know sin at this time, I don't believe they did.

 

You suggest that Eve desired His authority, I am not sure, you may be right

On ‎10‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 2:37 AM, William said:

." Adam "alone" exercised dominion by the act of naming every living creature which requires both judgment and discernment from one living creature to another.

 Eve had not yet been created, when Adam named every living creature. Adam was alone and why Eve was created.

Would Eve desire something that she was not there to do?

I don't want to misunderstand. Are you suggesting that Eve may have had sin in her heart?

 

I don't think that's possible, unless Satan was already talking to her, but we are not told that.

I don't believe there was sin in the garden until they ate the fruit.

Sin is why they had to leave the garden.  The Garden is like a picture of heaven, sinful man was not allowed to be in the garden.

On ‎10‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 2:37 AM, William said:

Eve desired this authority which was given to Adam in headship. Notice the contrasting punishment of God to Eve in Genesis 3:16, "Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.”

Again, I think what you are saying is possible, but I don't believe she could have had sin in her heart while they were in the

Garden. I find it interesting that they didn't know they were naked, until they sinned. just a thought, could they have been clothed in God glory and it was taken away from them when they sinned. They sinned and saw their nakedness.

 

my point is only that I don't see it possible Eve was caring sin in her heart.

 

On ‎10‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 2:37 AM, William said:

Lastly, do you think this pretty much sums up the deceitful lying doctrine of Satan from Genesis 3:5, they'll be like gods, and thus independent, able to rule over themselves apart from God, and secondly, there is not one God, but many gods; each is sovereign over himself or herself?

Again I don't think that was the lie.

Gen 3:22

 

And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.

 

Here God is saying the same thing, Man has now become like one of us knowing good and evil.

The fact that God confirms it, makes it a true statement not a lie

 

Is God calling man "gods"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On ‎10‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 11:25 AM, Becky said:

@Guppy Did Adam die the day he ate the fruit of the tree in the garden? 

Hi Becky

I don't understand what you are asking me, no Adam did not die that day, but he surely died.

unless you believe Adam had no chance of redemption, then you could say he died that day as well

 

I don't believe he died that day

 

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5 minutes ago, Guppy said:

Hi Becky

I don't understand what you are asking me, no Adam did not die that day, but he surely died.

unless you believe Adam had no chance of redemption, then you could say he died that day as well

 

I don't believe he died that day

 

Here is what i see us doing with this passage..  We accept what satan said as truth. He said this.

 Gen 3:4  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 
Gen 3:5  For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 

God said this: 

Gen 2:17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 
 

Something is goofy with our understanding .. Husband is saying hurry up i will be back later

 

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I apologize, I still don't understand what you are asking me

in my first post I said, Satan's lie was you shall not die. That was a lie. I said verse 5 was a true statement, that their eyes would be opened and they would be like God knowing what good and evil was. I don't believe up to this point that knew what evil was.

 

As for verse 2:17 maybe our confusion is caused by the translations we use. I use the NIV

Gen 2:17. the NIV

.but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

 

 

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4 hours ago, Guppy said:

Hi Becky

I don't understand what you are asking me, no Adam did not die that day, but he surely died.

unless you believe Adam had no chance of redemption, then you could say he died that day as well

 

I don't believe he died that day

 

Here you said "I don't believe he died that day. "

God said this 

 

Gen 2:16  And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 
Gen 2:17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 
 

Gen 2:17. the NIV

.but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” I ask when did he eat the apple? That is when he died.

 

I kinda think we ( mankind) need to understand what  kind of dying God is/was important to God. God said he would die that day so Adam did. Mankind often tends to think  physical death is the most important.  Maybe if i ask the question like this it will explane what  i am getting at.  Would you rather be saved and  dead of physical body or dead in sin? 

 

I am in no way saying my thoughts are THEE TRUTH of Gods Word... I am asking , learning, talking throwing out thoughts. Where i am wanting to end up is understanding the 'first resurrection' .  

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Thank you Becky.

I hope I haven't come across as saying, I am right and you are wrong.

I too am only giving my thoughts

If Adam died that day, what died?

 

 

 

 

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@Guppy i think we are having a nice conversation :classic_smile:  

Theologians might have my neck for this ... Before the fall Adam was sinless . He talked with God. He walked with God all that kind of stuff. Kinda what most of us think of heaven. Adam was not shy around God until he ate then he hid. He was no longer alive in his innocents. Adam now needed salvation. He was dead in sin. 

 God said Adam would die  ;The different translation dont read different to me. 

for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 
 for when you eat from it you will certainly die

Something in Adam died. His spirit? His soul?   God said he would die so he did , when he was forgiven was he resurrected? Quickened? 

 

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On ‎9‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 1:27 PM, William said:

Genesis 3:4-5,  But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

 

I am examining the lie of Satan in Genesis 3:4-5. Is Satan implying that man will be "god" or "God"? And how would you differentiate between the two? Please also consider touching upon the eternal state of your definition. For example, can "gods" exists from a point of time or have a beginning but not necessarily an end?

 

Thanks and God bless,

William

I think the expression from Satan " And you will be like God " implies a temptation with great promise for the first woman and man in creation. The strategy was to place before them the possibility of doing the creative works of God " Like God " because it is obvious that they were in a position to actually see God in His act of creating the animal , vegetable , mineral and human life if not the universe itself . The temptation would have been too great to turn away from . R.C. Sproul once did a sermon concerning God's pre disposed plan of actually creating the universe and human life knowing before hand that the first man and woman would fall and bring sin into the world. What say you ? Could God have deliberately created the universe for His own purpose ? Was everything preplanned , causing  the fall happen ?   There is no real indication that can be derived from Holy Writ . Only speculation .       M

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4 hours ago, Matthew Duvall said:

I think the expression from Satan " And you will be like God " implies a temptation with great promise for the first woman and man in creation. The strategy was to place before them the possibility of doing the creative works of God " Like God " because it is obvious that they were in a position to actually see God in His act of creating the animal , vegetable , mineral and human life if not the universe itself . The temptation would have been too great to turn away from . R.C. Sproul once did a sermon concerning God's pre disposed plan of actually creating the universe and human life knowing before hand that the first man and woman would fall and bring sin into the world. What say you ? Could God have deliberately created the universe for His own purpose ? Was everything preplanned , causing  the fall happen ?   There is no real indication that can be derived from Holy Writ . Only speculation .       M

Interesting, the very commandments which God made resulted in creation (everything from the smallest particle to grandest galaxy operates according to Law). In the context, I can definitely yield to the idea that Satan tempted Eve (the mother of all living) with the office of Lawgiver (over nature or creation). This doesn't change my position that Eve was tempted by headship, it only furthers the severity of the woman's temptation to take upon herself as mother the very roles of God the Father. 

 

4 hours ago, Matthew Duvall said:

R.C. Sproul once did a sermon concerning God's pre disposed plan of actually creating the universe and human life knowing before hand that the first man and woman would fall and bring sin into the world. What say you ? Could God have deliberately created the universe for His own purpose ? Was everything preplanned , causing  the fall happen ?   There is no real indication that can be derived from Holy Writ . Only speculation .       M

Why would God make the first negative command in Genesis 2:17 if God had not known the preplanned outcome? God broke from a pattern of positive commands to the very first negative command in Genesis 2:17. Does anyone think this was for no reason? Was God "speculating"?

 

Lemme throw a negative command at you Matthew, "don't think about a pink elephant". Why would a person fail to live up to that commandment?

 

Appreciate your input, Matthew!

God bless,

William 

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