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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
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Spirit Baptism?

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ROUND ONE

Affirmative: @seabass contends that there are only two occurrences of Spirit baptism in the New Testament.

 

Negative: @Faber contends that all believers received Spirit baptism.

 

The debate will consists of 4 rounds.

 

Seabass you have 24 hours to make your first post.


No one is allow to post comments until the debate is finished.

 

See rules for any questions.

 

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(1)

 

there is one baptism (Eph 4:5) that is in effect in this present dispensation.  That one baptism is Christ's baptism of the great commission (Matt 28:19-20; Mark 16:15,16; Luke 24:47).

 

This baptism of Christ's great commission: (Matt 28:19-20)

 

--had disciples (humans) administering water baptism

--is how disciples are made

--was to be taught and practiced till the end of time.

--in all the conversions within the book of Acts, men were water baptized by another human, as the eunuch, which is the one baptism of Eph 4:5.  If the eunuch must have been baptized with the HS then that creates 2 baptisms which is in obvious contradiction to Eph 4:5.  Nothing in the context even remotely suggests the eunuch was spirit baptized. Even in the context of Acts 8 we have the Spirit sending for Phillip to water baptized the eunuch. If water baptism is not necessary for salvation but instead spirit baptism is necessary, then there would have been no need for the Spirit to send for Phillip.  The Spirit could have spirit baptized the eunuch and Phillip was not even needed.

 

 

(2)

 

Eph 4:5 One baptism.  Proper exegesis requires that a word be understood by its literal meaning unless something in the context proves it is being used in a figurative (edit) sense.

F.F. Bruce: “baptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else; that is to say, the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning” (Questions Answered, p. 106).  Therefore baptism as used in Eph 4:5 must be understood as a literal immersion in water since nothing in the verse indicates a figurative meaning. 

 

Eph 4:5 says "One Lord, one faith, one baptism" which is a reflection back upon Mark 16:16 where we have the one Lord speaking about the one faith and one baptism that saves.  And again, the baptism of Christ's great commission had disciples (humans) administrating water baptism.

 

 

(3) 

 

In Acts 2:17 Peter quotes Joel's prophecy "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:"

 

When the Apostles were baptized with the HS in Acts 2:16 Peter says "But this (Apostles baptized with the HS) is that (baptism with the HS) which was spoken by the prophet Joel;"

 

Therefore "all flesh" does not mean each and every person will be baptized with the HS.  At Joel's time 'all flesh' was seen as two groups, Jews and Gentiles that made up all of mankind.  We just saw Peter make a direct connection of Joel's prophecy with the Apostles (Jews)  being baptized with the HS.  In Acts 11:15 Peter then connects those Gentiles being baptized with the HS with the Apostles being baptized with the HS "at the beginning" referring back to Pentecost in Acts 2.  Hence Peter makes a connection of Jews in Acts 2 and Gentiles in Acts 10 to Joel's prophecy, therefore "all flesh" Jew and Gentile were baptized with the HS meaning Joel's prophecy about baptism with the HS was fulfilled back in the first century meaning that baptism has ceased, ended...fulfilled.  If it was not fulfilled then every jot and tittle of the OT is still in effect and binding upon us today, (Mt 5:17-18).

 

 

(4)

 

Acts 11:15 Jews and Gentiles are saved in a like manner way.  The Jews in Acts 2 were not baptized with the HS just the Apostles eliminating baptism with the HS as being part of the like manner way Jews and Gentiles are saved.  Again, in the other conversions in the book of Acts none were baptized with the HS by the Lord and then miraculously spoke in tongues (miraculous signs do not even exist today) for it has nothing to do with the like manner way men are saved.

 

 

(5)

 

In the NT, the only ones we find who were promised baptism with the HS was the Apostles, (Acts 1:1-5).  Jesus in the context is speaking to His Apostles and no one else.  There is not a single verse that promises anyone today this baptism.  Therefore verses as Titus 3:6 is not baptism with the HS for all Christians for NO verse promises any Christian today this baptism.

 

(6)

 

the only verses in the Bible that specifically refer to a "baptism with the HS" are (Acts 1:5 with 2:1-4 (Apostles - Jews) and 11:15-16 with 10:44-46 (Gentiles)) all of which refer to the only 2 instances in the Bible baptism with the HS occurred Jews in Acts 2 and Gentiles in Acts 10-11.  Therefore it would be an assumption to call any other miraculous events with the HS a 'baptism with the HS' for it would be calling it something the Bible does not call it.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by seabass

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Thank you @seabass.

 

@Faber you have 24 hours to respond.

 

 

No one is allow to post comments until the debate is finished.

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All Scripture citations are from the NASB (1995) and all the bold and underlined are mine.

 

Part 1

 In his Gospel, Luke teaches that John asserted many other people were going to be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Luke 3:10

(10) And the crowds were questioning him, saying, “Then what shall we do?”

(11) And he would answer and say to them, “The man who has two tunics is to share with him who has none; and he who has food is to do likewise.”

(12) And some tax collectors also came to be baptized, and they said to him, “Teacher, what shall we do?”

(13) And he said to them, “Collect no more than what you have been ordered to.”

(14) Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.”

(15) Now while the people were in a state of expectation and all were wondering in their hearts about John, as to whether he was the Christ,

(16) John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

(17) “His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

(18) So with many other exhortations he preached the gospel to the people.

 

Part 2

1. Since all Christians have had the Holy Spirit being poured on them means that all Christians have been baptized with the Holy Spirit.

 Poured (ekcheō - Strong's #1632)

     a. Concerning those individuals in the beginning of Acts 2: Their baptism with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4; cf. 1:5) is equated with the Holy Spirit being poured on them (Acts 2:17, 18, 33).

     b. Concerning Cornelius and the Gentiles with him: Their baptism with the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:16; cf. 1:5) is equated with the Holy Spirit being poured on them (Acts 10:45).

     c. Titus 3:5-6

 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior.

 

2. Since all Christians have received the Holy Spirit means that all Christians have been baptized with the Holy Spirit.

 Received (lambanō - Strong's #2983)

     a. Concerning those individuals in the beginning of Acts 2: Their baptism with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4; cf. 1:5) is equated with them having received the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:33).

     b. Concerning Cornelius and the Gentiles with him: Their baptism with the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:16; cf. 1:5) is equated with them having received the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:47).

     c. 1 Corinthians 2:12 (cf. Acts 8:14-16 below)

 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God

 

3. Since all Christians have been given the Holy Spirit means that all Christians have been baptized with the Holy Spirit.

 Given (didōmi - Strong's #1325)

     a. Concerning those individuals in the beginning of Acts 2: Their baptism with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4; cf. 1:5) is equated with them being given the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:17; 15:8).

     b. Concerning Cornelius and the Gentiles with him: Their baptism with the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:16; cf. 1:5) is equated with them being given the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:17; 15:8).

     c. 2 Corinthians 1:21-22

 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

 

4. Since all Christians have had the Holy Spirit fall on them means that all Christians have been baptized with the Holy Spirit.

 Fell (epipiptō - Strong's #1968)

     a. Concerning those individuals in the beginning of Acts 2: Their baptism with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4; cf. 1:5) is equated with the Holy Spirit falling on them (Acts 11:15).

     b. Concerning Cornelius and the Gentiles with him: Their baptism with the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:16; cf. 1:5) is equated with the Holy Spirit falling on them (Acts 11:15).

     c. Acts 8:14-16

 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

 Even though in Acts 8 having the Holy Spirit fall on them refers specifically to the Samaritans it also applies to all Christians in that He was given (8:18; didōmi) and He is to be received (8:15, 17, 19).

 

 Based on all the evidence above to insist that not every Christian has been baptized with the Holy Spirit runs completely contrary to what the Bible so clearly affirms.

 

Part 3

Ephesians 4:5

William Murkle: In Spirit baptism the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit have fully accomplished the divine purpose in our eternal redemption. In water baptism we have a visible picture of this finished redemption, which is done in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
 Some will inquire, "But are there two baptisms?" Certainly not! There is one visible baptism which is an analogy of the one invisible baptism (Four Kinds of Water Baptism, William Murkle, page 54).

 

Question for seabass

1. In Ephesians 4:5 if "one baptism" does not at all refer to the baptism with the Holy Spirit then does that mean "one Lord" (which is also found in the passage) does not at all refer to more than one Person of the Trinity despite the fact that the Father is referred to as "Lord" (James 3:9), the Son is referred to as "Lord" (Acts 1:21), and the Holy Spirit is referred to as "Lord" (2 Corinthians 3:17)? 

2. When did the New Testament Church begin (please cite a passage or passages to support your answer)?

3. If a person is worshiping in the Spirit (Philippians 3:3) is he/she in Christ?

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Round Two

 

You guys are moving at light speed.  I like it.

 

Thank you @Faber.

 

@seabass you have 24 hours to reply.

 

No one is allow to post comments until the debate is finished.

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Part 1 of Faber:

The same context is found in Mat 3:11;

 

In the context leading up to verse 11 Pharisees had come to where John was baptizing and from Luke 7:30 we see Pharisees rejected John's baptism.  John speaks to these Pharisees in verses 7-11 and in verse 11 John says to these Pharisees 'I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"

 

In verse 11 John uses the pronoun "you" twice, so the issue is who do these pronouns refer to?

 

In speaking to these Pharisees John said "I indeed baptize YOU with water" yet we know John was not baptizing them with water for they rejected his baptism.  So how can John say to the Pharisees I baptized YOU with water when he HAD NOT!!

 

It becomes obvious that John is using both pronouns "you" in a generic sense.  There is an old saying that goes "you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink"  Both pronouns 'you" in this saying do not refer to anyone specifically, they are used in a general, generic sense. Likewise John was using the pronouns "you" to ANNOUNCE the TYPE of baptism he baptized with and ANNOUNCED the types of baptisms the Lord would baptize with.  John promised NO ONE in his audience, including the Pharisees that would be baptized with the HS or with fire.  Therefore we cannot tell from the immediate context in Mt 3:11 exactly who the "you" is that will be baptized with the HS.  But we can look to the fulfillment of John's words as to who the "you" would be that would be baptized with the HS...and that fulfillment is found in Acts 1:1-5.  In this context Christ is with His Apostles and it is these Apostles that Christ said He would baptize with the HS and even refers to John's words in Acts 1:5.  So now we know who the "you" is in Mat 3:11 that would be baptized with the HS and that is the Apostles.  

 

People try to conveniently make themselves the second "you" in Matt 3:11 but ignore the first "you" when in reality NEITHER "you" in the verse refers to anyone today or even then in John's audience.

 

 

Part 2

You being your Part 2 with an unproven assumption .

 

As I have noted before from Acts 11:15 Peter says Jews and Gentiles are saved in a like manner way.  IF baptism with the HS is the like manner way then why was it the Jews in Acts 2 were NOT baptized with the HS??  From information given in the context of Acts chapters 1 and 2 it was just the Apostles Jesus was speaking to in Acts 1:1-5 and promised baptism with the HS, NO ONE ELSE.  And in Acts 2 it was just the Apostles the HS came upon, NO ONE ELSE.  As I have noted to you before, in all the conversions in Acts men were water baptized including Cornelius.  Cornelius would be the only one baptized with the HS by the Lord for the purpose of proving to the Jews salvation was not just for them but also to go to the Gentiles,  So baptism with the HS had nothing to do with the personal salvation of Cornelius, the Jews in Acts 2 the eunuch and any others converted in the book of Acts thereby by eliminating baptism with the HS making water baptism that like manner way.

 

Above you ASSUMED " all Christians have had the Holy Spirit being poured" that lead to anther assumption "that all Christians have been baptized with the Holy Spirit" which lead to more and more assumptions

 

Part 3

In Eph 4:4-5 when Paul says one he means one....one = one is a mathematical fact.

 

If one baptism can mean many baptismS then one God must mean MANY Gods and Christianity is polytheistic rather than monotheistic.

 

In the context Paul says there is "one body" and the body is the church (Eph 5:3; Col 1:18).  Therefore there is just ONE church, ONE body of Christ not many bodies.  In the context of Ephesians Paul uses the institution of marriage to show the relationship between Christ and His one church, how Christ is the Groom and the church is His bride.  Paul tells the Corinthians he espoused them to ONE husband. 2 Cor 11:2.  If there are many bodies and not just one, then Christ is the husband to many brides making HIm a spirutaul adulterer,  a spiritual polygamist.

 

Paul also says there is "one faith" not many faithS.  In Gal 1:23 Paul said he preached THE faith with 'the" being an article depiciting one particular faith.  There is no such thing in the Bible as many faithS.  Men have tried to corrupt the Bible and create MANY faiths were by men can even choose A faith.  Again such idea is totally foreign to the Bible.

 

You failed to show that "baptism" in Eph 4:5 is used in some figurative way rather than literally as it should be understood.  Note in Acts 19 that some in Ephesus had been baptized with an expired baptism of John so Paul "....baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus" verse 5.  This baptism "in the name of Jesus" is the same WATER baptism in the name of Jesus in Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:47-48.  Nowhere is baptism with the HS said to be "in the name of Jesus".  From Eph 5:26 we see the Ephesians 'cleansing" involved "washing of water" a loutron referring to a laver of water, a baptismal font.

 

 

The ONE body, the church began at Pentecost (Acts 2) and those that obeyed Peter's command of Acts 2:38 were the ones the Lord added to that church.

 

Phil 3:3 the HS wrote the NT gospel which instructs Christians on how to worship.  Therefore when Christians worship by the Spirit, it is by the HS word that directs Christian on how to worship in truth (John 17:17)  and spirit (John 4:24)

 

 

 

Edited by seabass

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@Faber it is your turn.  You have 24 hours to reply.

 

No one is allow to post comments until the debate is finished.

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Part 1

 I am well aware that Matthew 3 also refers to the baptism with the Holy Spirit spoken of in Luke 3, but Luke gave other details that are not found in Matthew.

      a. seabass asserted: John promised NO ONE in his audience, including the Pharisees that would be baptized with the HS or with fire. 

          My response: If we believe your assertion then John simply spoke these words to all the people while at the same time knowing that what he said didn't apply to any of them at all. This is absurd.

 

Part 2

More of my responses to seabass.

     a. seabass asserted: As I have noted before from Acts 11:15 Peter says Jews and Gentiles are saved in a like manner way.  

         My response: Those in Acts 2:4 were already saved before they were baptized with the Holy Spirit. The baptism with the Holy Spirit places a person into the body of Christ/the New Testament Church. I agree with you that the New Testament Church began in Acts 2:4. Thus every time afterwards when one is baptized with the Holy Spirit they are placed into the New Testament Church/are saved. This is what took place with the Gentiles before they were water baptized (Acts 11:16).

     b. seabass asserted: IF baptism with the HS is the like manner way then why was it the Jews in Acts 2 were NOT baptized with the HS??

         My response: They were. The baptism with the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:4 (cf. Acts 1:5) is also described as them receiving the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:33). And according to Acts 2:38 they too received the Holy Spirit. Thus they were baptized with the Holy Spirit.

This accords with what I wrote in my first response in Part 2, number 2.

     c. seabass asserted: And in Acts 2 it was just the Apostles the HS came upon, NO ONE ELSE. 

         My response: It refers to at least the 120 that were mentioned in Acts 1:15. I am well aware that Acts 1:26 finishes with "the eleven apostles," but it does not necessitate it only refers to them. In fact, Acts 2:17 teaches that the pouring of the Holy Spirit (= the baptism with the Holy Spirit) also apples to daughters. This means females. Thus the baptism with the Holy Spirit included more than just the 12 apostles. Indeed, notice further in Acts 2:17 it reads they would "prophesy" and this is precisely what Philip's four daughters were known for (Acts 21:9). Thus they too were baptized with the Holy Spirit.   

      1. NIDNTT: at Pentecost the Spirit was outpoured on a company of men and women (1:148, Baptism, G. R. Beasley-Murray, the underlined is mine).

      2. TDNT: the Spirit was poured out on the 120 (1:15) (6:413, pneuma, Schweizer).

 

Part 3

My responses to seabass continued.

     a. seabass asserted: In Eph 4:4-5 when Paul says one he means one....one = one is a mathematical fact.

         My response: This sounds like the argument used by those who deny that God is Triune. I am well aware that "one means one," however one can encompass others. One Lord encompasses the Father (James 3:9), the Son (Acts 1:21), and the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17). Since "one" encompasses three (Persons) then there is no dilemma with "one" encompassing two (baptisms).

     b. seabass asserted: If one baptism can mean many baptismS then one God must mean MANY Gods and Christianity is polytheistic rather than monotheistic.

         My response: See my response immediately above.

     c. seabass asserted: Paul also says there is "one faith" not many faithS.  

         My response: I agree, but what I pointed out is that the "Lord" for the Christian is not an absolute singularity, but is in fact Triune. I hope you agree that the Lord of the Bible is Triune. Furthermore, please be aware that there still remained a baptism (Mark 10:35-39) for the Apostle John to undergo (i.e., his death) years after Ephesians was written. If, as you maintain, there is only one baptism (baptism in water) then the Lord Jesus was mistaken when He taught about the death of John being a baptism

 

Part 4

 Other passages which refer to the baptism with the Holy Spirit applying to all Christians. The underlined below is mine.

A. 1 Corinthians 12:13

For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. (ESV)

 In this baptism all drink of one Spirit.

John 7:37-39

(37) On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink.

(38) Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”

(39) Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. (ESV)

 John 7:37-39 teaches that this drinking of the Spirit occurs when He is received. Notice this is for "anyone" (v. 37). When the Holy Spirit was received by the Gentiles they at the same time drank Him/were baptized with Him (Acts 10:47 cf. 11:16). This occurred before their water baptism. And when anyone else receives the Holy Spirit they too are baptized with the Holy Spirit. 

 

B. Romans 6:3-6

(3) Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 

(4) We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

(5) For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

(6) We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. (ESV)

     1. This baptism (6:3) gives the Christian the ability to walk in newness of life (6:4). 

 To walk in the newness of life (6:4) = To serve in the newness of the Spirit (7:6)

     a. NIDNTT: For Paul it was precisely the gift of the Holy Spirit which distinguished the Christian from the Jew, the new age from the old (Rom. 2:29; 7:6; 2 Cor. 3:6-8; Gal. 4:29; Phil. 3:3) (3:701, Spirit - J. D. G. Dunn). 

 That Cornelius and the Gentiles with him received the gift of the Spirit (Acts 10:45) before they were water baptized demonstrates that their baptism with the Holy Spirit was the reason for them to walk in the newness of life.

     2. This baptism (6:3) results in the Christian no longer being enslaved to sin (6:6). This "spirit of slavery" is cancelled because the Christians has received the "Spirit of adoption" (Romans 8:15). Cornelius and the Gentiles with him are said to have received this Spirit (Acts 10:47) when they were baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:16). This took place before their water baptism. Thus when one is baptized with the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of adoption) they are no longer slaves to sin (the spirit of slavery).

     a. EDNT: The Spirit received by the believers is pneuma huiothesias (and not douleias) and allows them to experience the new father-son relationship (Rom 8:15) (3:381, huiothesia, F. Hahn).

     b. W. E. Vine: In Rom. 8:15, believers are said to have received "the Spirit of adoption," that is, the Holy Spirit who, given as the Firstfruits of all that is to be theirs, produces in them the realization of sonship and the attitude belonging to sons (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, Adoption).

https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/ved/a/adoption.html

 

C. Galatians 3:27

  For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. (NASB)

 Being baptized into Christ is to be clothed (endyō) with Christ (Galatians 3:27). Luke 24:49 teaches that this being clothed (endyō) occurs when one is baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5). This is what the Gentiles experienced before they were water baptized (Acts 11:16).

 

D. Colossians 2:11-12

(11) In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,

(12) having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. (ESV)

 All who have undergone this baptism have at the same time experienced the circumcision of Christ (Colossians 2:11). Those of the true circumcision (i.e. Christians) "worship in the Spirit" (Philippians 3:3). Since Cornelius and the Gentiles with him possessed the Holy Spirit and were worshiping in the Spirit (Acts 10:46) demonstrates they were the true circumcision (i.e. Christians) before their water baptism.

 Citing Acts 10:46 the NIDNTT reads: When later in Caesarea the first pagans received the Holy Spirit and became members of the church, they also shared in the grace of worshipping and praising God "in other tongues" (3:1080, Word, H. Haarbeck).

  Furthermore, since these Gentiles were "praying in the Holy Spirit" (cf. Acts 10:46) they were building themselves up on their "most holy faith" (Jude 1:20). This describes a Christian, not an unbeliever.

 

Part 5

2 Corinthians 1:22

who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. (NASB, the underlined is mine)

     1. Cornelius and the Gentiles with him were given the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:17; 15:8). This is the same thing as saying they were baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:16). In 2 Corinthians 1:22 all who are Christians have been given the Holy Spirit. This is the same thing as saying they were baptized with the Holy Spirit. Once again, all Christians have been baptized with the Holy Spirit.

     2. The Spirit was given to both groups above as a pledge. If anyone receives the Holy Spirit as a pledge means that one is a Christian.

         a. TDNT: The Spirit whom God has given them is for Christians the guarantee of their full future possession of salvation (1:475, arrabōn, Behm, the underlined is mine).

          b. The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible: Most significant, the apostle spoke of the Holy Spirit as the seal of ownership with which God has marked the believer (2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:13; 4:30; cf. also 2 Tim 2:19) (5:378, Seal, F. B. Huey, Jr.,the underlined and bold are mine)

     3. 2 Corinthians 1:22 parallels Ephesians 1:13-14.

(13) In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

(14) who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. (NASB, the underlined is mine)

 It's interesting that the previous information concerning the baptism with the Holy Spirit is found in the Book of Ephesians. This gives powerful testimony that the "one baptism" found in Ephesians 4:5 refers to the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Indeed, this baptism is the result of embracing the gospel (cf. Ephesians 1:13). Nothing is more important for a person to do than that.

 

 

Questions for seabass

     1. Why did you ignore the following evidence presented in Part 2 as found in my first post? 

To be baptized with the Holy Spirit = To have the Holy Spirit poured on a person = To receive the Holy Spirit = To be given the Holy Spirit = To have the Holy Spirit fall on a person.

     2. Since the giving of the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:8) = the baptism with the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:16) why isn't the giving of the Holy Spirit referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 1:13-14?

     3. How can only the 12 apostles be baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4; cf. Acts 1:5) when Acts 2:17 affirms the Holy Spirit being poured out on females as well (cf. Acts 21:9)?

     4. How can Cornelius and the Gentiles with him not yet be saved until their water baptism despite the fact that since they received the Spirit they were worshiping in the Spirit (Acts 10:46; cf. Philippians 3:3; Jude 1:20)?

     5. Since being baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4; cf. Acts 1:5) = Receiving the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:33) why weren't those in Acts 2:38 baptized with the Holy Spirit when they received the Spirit?

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Round Three

Thanks to both of you.

 

@seabass you have 24 hours to reply.

 

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(1)

 

Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

 

It was not explained why John would say to the Pharisees he was speaking "I baptized YOU with water" when in fact John had NOT baptized them with water.

It was not explained how just the second pronoun "you" would apply to just Christians when  John was not addressing Christians, but Pharisees and Sadducees.

The facts remain that neither pronoun 'you' applies to anyone today, John was not speaking to Christians and the only promise in the Bible related to baptism with the HS was made to the Apostles.

 

 

(2) 

 

Acts 2:4 is a reference to the Apostles, for again, in Acts 1:1-5 Jesus was speaking only to His Apostles and promised them baptism with the HS.  Therefore the only ones in Acts 2 that were baptized with the HS were the Apostles thereby that eliminates baptism with the HS as the like manner way Jews and Gentiles are saved.  Again, other than Cornelius, in no other conversion in the book of Acts was anyone baptized with the HS, they were all water baptized making water baptism the like manner way men are saved.

 

(3) 

 

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

 

Paul said there is ONE Spirit, ONE Lord and ONE God which makes up the ONE Triune.  You are straining very hard to get one equal something other than one.

 

 

From Joel's prophecy, he prophesied that God's spirit would be poured out upon ALL FLESH.  You have failed to identify who this all flesh refers to nor have proven it refers to all Christians only.

 

 

(4) 

 

As I pointed out in my first post here "the only verses in the Bible that specifically refer to a "baptism with the HS" are (Acts 1:5 with 2:1-4 (Apostles - Jews) and 11:15-16 with 10:44-46 (Gentiles)) all of which refer to the only 2 instances in the Bible baptism with the HS occurred Jews in Acts 2 and Gentiles in Acts 10-11."

 

You therefore are calling the baptism that is mentioned in 1 Cor 12:13; Romans 6; Gal 3:27 and Col 2:11-12 baptism with the HS when the Bible does not call them that.  You cannot go "above that which is written" 1 Cor 4:6 and call the baptism in these verses what the Bible does not call them.  Simply because YOU call them baptism with the HS does not make it so.

 

John 3:5-------------Spirit++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom

1 Cor 12:13---------Spirit+++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body

 

Here are two born again verses and since there is just one way to be born again, then both verses MUST say the same thing. The Bible makes it to clear and obvious that the baptism of 1 Cor 12:13 is a reference to water baptism.  Again, Paul water baptized some of those Corinthians himself, 1 Cor 1:14,16 following the great commission of Christ that had disciples (humans) administering water baptism and this human administered water baptism would last till the end of time.

 

Gal 3:27 again you call this baptism with the HS when the Bible does NOT, hence you are making an assumption.  This baptism is the same water baptism that Paul baptized some Corinthians with which is the human administered water baptism of Christ's great commission and you make the same assumption with Rom 6 and Col 2.

 

In Rom 6 and Col 2 both speak of a literal burial from which one is raised up from, risen from which is a clear indication of water baptism.  Not one thing in either context show that the "burial" and being "raised up" or "risen" in only figurative.  If one was buried in the spirit then one is raised up FROM the spirit and does not maintain the spirit.

 

Again, I showed that those Jews being water baptized was the form of doctrine they had OBEYED from the heart.  Hence being "freed from sin" per Rom 6:7 and Rom 6:17-18 involves obedience in submitting to the command to be water baptized. Baptism with the HS was NEVER commanded to anyone so it cannot be obeyed, it was a promise made to the Apostles and not anyone today.

 

(5)  

 

You continue to make the CLAIM Cornelius was saved prior to being water baptized and that his being baptized with the HS proves he was already saved.....

 

a) you have not shown from the context of Acts 10 where/when/how/why Cornelius was saved BEFORE he was water baptized

b) you have not shown a verse that says the HS coming upon some one and that some one performing some miraculous sign is proof that person is saved.  1 Sam 19 the Spirit came upon Saul and his messengers and they prophesied but they were not saved.

c) you have not shown how Cornelius could be accepted with God without him working righteousness Acts 10:35

d) how could Cornelius ever be saved if he disobeyed the command to be water baptized when that would be working unrighteousness, sin.

 

 

Ephesians 1:13-14 being sealed with the HS is not baptism with the HS.  Again you call this something the Bible does not.

 

--Acts 19:5 Ephesians were water baptized in the name of Christ the same water baptism in the name of Christ commanded to Cornelius

--Eph 5:26  the Ephesians had a "washing of water" which is from the Greek loutron meaning a laver of water, a baptismal font.

--Eph 2:8 says the Ephesians were saved by faith

so we have:

faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves

baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves 1 Pet 3:21; Mark 16:16; Actgs 2:38

 

Since there is just one way to be saved, then the Ephesians faith must have included water baptism of the great commission that saved.

 

============

 

1) I did not ignore anything but pointed out that all the assumptions you are making and how YOU call the baptism in 1 Cor 12:13; Gal 3:27 etc  baptism with the HS when the Bible does not.

 

2) Acts 15:8 Peter is comparing the HS falling upon Cornelius to the HS falling upon the APostles in Acts 2.  For these are the only two occurrences of baptism with the HS in the NT.

 

In Acts 11:15 in rehearsing the events of Acts 10 to the Jews, Peter said "And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning."  Peter had to go all the way back some years to Acts 2 and Pentecost (the beginning) to where the Apostles were baptized with the HS to find a similar example of what happened with the Gentiles proving baptism with the HS was not a common occurrence among all Christians.  Why did Peter not say the HS fell upon the Gentiles as it fell upon all Jewish Christians if baptism with the HS were a common occurence among all Christians?

 

3)

 

a) In Acts 1:1-5 Jesus promised just the APostles baptism with the HS and in Acts 2 it was just the Apostles the HS came upon and they spoke in tongues.

 

b) Joel said God would pour out His spirit upon ALL FLESH.  You have not proven that all flesh means all Christians.  

 

Acts 2:17 "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:"

 

First note from 1 Cor 12:29-31 there were Christians who had no miraculous sign of any kind could not prophesy, no miraculous visions, could not speak in tongues.  Hence the HS as prophesied by Joel coming upon all flesh and giving signs  did not come to ALL Christians therefore all Christians could not have been baptized with the HS and given signs.

All flesh refers to Jews and Gentiles and the Apostles (Jews) and Cornelius (Gentile) were baptized with the HS and given signs by the HS.  Again this did not happen to ALL Christians for all Christian even in the 1st century when they did have signs did not have signs.  No Christian today has a miraculous sign.

 

Lastly,  your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men.  The HS came upon just the Apostles in Acts 2.  And from Acts 2 it is only the Apostles who are able to perform miracles.  Yet we learn later that the Apostles could lay their hands upon another person (sons, daughters, young and old men) and pass on one of these miraculous Apostolic gifts, Acts 8:18; Acts 19:6; Romans 1:11.

 

4)

 

When we are first introduced to Cornelius, he was already a believer in God, prayed to God and is called a righteous man but he was not saved for he had not heard the gospel and worked righteouseness by being water baptized.  If faith only saves then why wasn't Cornelius already saved in Acts 10:2??

 

Acts 16:14 Lydia worshipped God but she was not saved, had not been baptized nor ever was baptized with the HS.

 

5)

 

Your question 5 is also based on many assumptions you have not proven.

--In Acts 2 just the Apostles were baptized with the HS and the APosltles were already saved and did not need to obey Acts 2:38.

--The Jews in Acts 2 were not baptized with the HS and were lost, so they had to obey verse 38 which is the human administered water baptism of Christ's great commission.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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@Faber you have 24 hours to respond.

 

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1. Your assertion concerning the Pharisees not being baptized by John with water is irrelevant, because when John spoke it was not restricted only to them. Others were included. 

 

2. Acts 2:17 connects the pouring of the Holy Spirit upon females with the gift of prophesy.

 

3. Ephesians 4:6 

     a. "One God" also encompasses the Lord Jesus (John 20:28).

     b. You ignored that there was still a "baptism" for the Apostle John to experience (Mark 10:35-39).

 

4. You totally ignored the evidence that I presented which demonstrates that Romans 6:3, 1 Corinthians 12:13, Galatians 3:27 and Colossians 2:12 refer to being baptized with the Holy Spirit. 

 

5. seabass asserted: 1 Sam 19 the Spirit came upon Saul and his messengers and they prophesied but they were not saved.

    My response: Whereas the Holy Spirit worked through both believers (1 Samuel 16:13) and unbelievers (Numbers 24:2) during the Old Covenant era John 7:39 teaches that during the New Testament Church era He would "enter into and become the life of the believer, producing in him the life of Jesus” (S.H. Hooke, NTS, 9, 1962-63, page 380). Thus when the NT Church began (Acts 2:4) only saved (Christian) people possessed Him (Romans 8:9; 1 John 3:24; 4:13). The Word Biblical Commentary on Romans 8:9 makes this clear:
 In what amounts to the nearest thing to a definition of "Christian" in his writings, Paul defines a Christian, albeit in negative formulation, as one who has the Spirit of Christ (Romans 1-8, 38 A, James Dunn, page 444).

 

6. Both Cornelius in Acts 10:2 and Lydia in Acts 16:14 were not yet saved so therefore they were not "worshiping in the Spirit" (Philippians 3:3). So your attempt to evade the fact that Cornelius and the Gentiles with him were worshiping in the Spirit (Acts 10:46; cf. Philippians 3:3; Jude 1:20) falls apart.

 

7. seabass asserted: Peter had to go all the way back some years to Acts 2 and Pentecost (the beginning) to where the Apostles were baptized with the HS to find a similar example of what happened with the Gentiles proving baptism with the HS was not a common occurrence among all Christians.  Why did Peter not say the HS fell upon the Gentiles as it fell upon all Jewish Christians if baptism with the HS were a common occurence among all Christians?

     My response: When Peter referred back to the baptism with the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:4 (cf. Acts 1:5) he is not saying this was only the second time this event took place. It was because the Jews had such extreme misgivings about the Gentiles that Peter needed to emphasize that since the Gentiles were baptized with the Holy Spirit they were just as much part of the NT Church as when he and the others with him were baptized with the Holy Spirit. If one were to deny these Gentiles then consistency would demand the same for Peter and the other 11 Apostles as well the people with them (Acts 1:15). This no one speaking in truth could deny.

 

8. Acts 2:4 (cf. Acts 1:5)

 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance. (NASB, the underlined is mine)

 The baptism with the Holy Spirit in Acts 1:5 is the filling with the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:4. The baptism with the Holy Spirit occurs for the Christian only one time - when they enter int the New Testament Church. To be filled with the Holy Spirit also occurs when one enters the New Testament Church, but unlike the baptism with the Holy Spirit, the filling with the Holy Spirit can happen more than once.

     a. William Mounce: Even after people are permanently filled with the Spirit at conversion, the Spirit can again fill them in a sense that he possesses and empowers them in a special way for a temporary, specific task, such as when Peter spoke to the Sanhedrin (Acts 4:8) and the church prayed for boldness (4:31). Paul is filled with the Spirit (9:17) and almost immediately begins to testify (9:20). He is later filled with the Spirit again and denounces Elymas the magician (13:9) (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Fill, page 250).

 Thus since the Gentiles were baptized with the Holy Spirit they (at the same time) were filled with the Holy Spirit. This took place before their water baptism. This is very important because to be filled with the Holy Spirit applies to Christians, not non-Christians.

     1. NIDNTT: What until Pentecost, the decisive date for the universal church, was the privilege of only a few individuals, is from that day forward the most important characteristic of the Jewish and subsequently (cf. Acts 10) the Gentile church. According to Acts 2:4 all were "filled with the Spirit"...To be filled with the power of the Spirit means to "live by the Spirit" (Gal. 5:25), or to be "in Christ", to "have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor. 2:16), and thus to have the fullness of the gifts of grace flow through one as a member of the body of Christ (1:739, Fullness, R. Schippers).
     2. TDNT: the early Christian is filled with the Spirit (4:547, methē, Preisker).


Questions for seabass

1. When the Book of Ephesians was written did the Apostle John still have a baptism to undergo (Mark 10:35-39)?

2. How can Cornelius and the Gentiles with him not be saved until their water baptism even though they were "filled with the Holy Spirit"?

3. If one is "in the Spirit" is one "in Christ"?

4. The following lexicons and dictionaries (8 in total) all teach that if one possesses the Holy Spirit he/she is saved.

     a. BDAG (3rd Edition)

     b. Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament

     c. New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (NIDNTT)

     d. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT)

     e. Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words

     f. Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

     g. Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament (EDNT)

     h. New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis (NIDOTTE)

 -> Are they all in error?   

5. In citing Acts 11:15f. and 15:8 why does the NIDNTT read, "Consequently at critical or problematic moments of the early mission thereafter what was looked for above all else was the reception or possession of the Spirit…" (3:699, Spirit, Dunn) for whenever a dispute arose in Acts about the conversion of Cornelius and the Gentiles with him Peter always appealed to their reception of the Holy Spirit and never to their water baptism because “the receiving of the Spirit is the decisive thing, not baptism...” (TDNT 6:623, Jordan - Iordanēs, Rengstorf)?    

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Last Round

 

@seabass you have 24 hours to post.

 

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Summation:

 

1)

 

in Eph 4:5 one = one, simply because there is one God, one Spirit and one Lord that make up the one Godhead, that has nothing to do with there being "one baptism" nor does it give anyone the right to change the Bible from "one baptism" to "two baptisms".  Feber's whole argument dies here just on this one point.

 

2)

 

if baptism with the HS were the one baptism of Eph 4:5 that saves, then that puts men's salvation solely in the hands of the Lord as to whom the Lord will baptize with the HS and save and whom He will not baptize with the HS and leave lost thereby making not only the Lord culpable for the lost but a respecter of persons as to who will or will not be saved.

 

3)

 

worth noting again,  the only verses in the Bible that specifically refer to a "baptism with the HS" are (Acts 1:5 with 2:1-4 (Apostles - Jews) and 11:15-16 with 10:44-46 (Gentiles)) all of which refer to the only 2 instances in the Bible baptism with the HS occurred Jews in Acts 2 and Gentiles in Acts 10-11.  Therefore to call Romans 6:4-5; Gal 3:27; Colossians 2:11-12 baptism with the HS is going beyond and adding to what the Bible says when the Bible does not call them baptism with the HS.

 

4)

 

it still has not been shown where/when/how/why Cornelius was saved prior to being water baptized.  If "faith only" saved Cornelius, then he should have been already saved in  Acts 10:2 but he was not.  From the context of Acts 10 and 11 if Cornelius was saved before he was water baptized then he was saved before he had his sins remitted (Acts 2:38), saved before he worked righteousness and accpeted with God (Acts 10:35) and saved before hearing the gospel and believing (Acts 11:4 cf  15)

 

From 2 Thess 1:8 one must obey the gospel of Christ else face God's wrath.  The gospel being the death burial and resurrection of Christ as those Jews Paul writes to in Romans had obeyed from the heart that FORM of doctrine.  Prior to being water baptized Cornelius had not obeyed that form of doctrine, had not died, been buried or resurrected where he would then be freed from sin.

 

5)

 

The HS falling upon the Apostles (Jews) and Cornelius (Gentile) fulfills Joel's prophecy about baptism with the HS bring that baptism to an end in Acts 10.  No evidence has been given that "all flesh" refers to Christians only.  In the two cases where the Lord baptized men with the HS in Acts 2 and 10 it was followed by a miraculous sign.  Not all Christians in the first century during the age of miracles had a miraculous sign.  No Christian today possesses a miraculous sign as a result of being baptized with the HS.  Peter connects the Apostles (jews) to Joel's prophecy in Acts 2:16 as he does with the Gentiles in Acts 11:15.  Hence 'all flesh' Jew and Gentile was baptized with the HS.  NOwhere does Peter connect any Christian in Jerusalem or elsewhere with Joel's prophecy.

 

 

 

 

--

to understand a context one needs to know who is speaking, who is being spoken to and what is being said.  In Matt 3:11 John is speaking to Pharisees and said I baptize you with water.  So John was not addressing all Christians.  One cannot just conveniently make themselves the second pronoun "you" while ignoring the first pronoun "you".  If just one of those pronouns referred to me, then both would refer to me when in reality neither pronoun refers to me nor anyone else today.

 

 

--

a) in Acts 2:3-4 it says the HS came upon "them" and "they" were all filled with the HS.  The nearest plural antecedent of 'they' and 'them" is the "eleven Apostles" of Acts 1:26 showing it was just the Apostles in Acts 2 the HS came upon.

 

b) after Jesus speaks to the Apostles in Acts 1:1-8, Jesus was taken up in a cloud and two men stood in white apparel and said to the Apostles " Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."  So we know the Apostles were from Galilee which was a long distance away from Jerusalem.  We also know from Acts 2:7 the ones that the HS came upon and spoke in tongues also spoke Galilaean. The chances that all those the Lord added to the church that day (Acts 2:47) and had supposedly been baptized with the HS were all from Galilee is too remote to be possible.

 

c) Acts 2:14 Peter stood up with "the eleven" the same "the eleven" in Acts 1:26 that refers to 'they' and 'them' in Acts 2:3-4.  Peter stood with those that spoke Galilaean which were the ones who spoke Galilaean.  Acts 2:15 the pronoun "these" referring to the eleven Apostles that Peter stood with who had spoke in tongues and accused of being drunk.

 

No indication anyone other than the Apostles were baptized with the HS in Acts 2.  ANd from Acts 2 the Apostles layed their hands upon others giving the various gifts as prophecies, tongues, etc.

 

questions:

 

1) The Apostles would have been baptized (born again) with John the baptizers baptism before it expired and replaced with Christ's baptism of the great commission.  The baptism of Mk 10:38 would be a type of baptism of suffering.  Even though the NT speaks of 6 or 7 baptisms, by the time Paul penned his Ephesian epistle there was "one baptism" now in effect in this present dispensation.

 

2) there is no verse that says being baptized with the HS saved.  Christ's water baptism of the great commission is what saves, Mark 16;16; Luke 24:47 cf Acts 2:38.  Again, the Spirit came upon Saul and his messengers who then prophesied but they were not saved.  John 11:49-53 the HS came upon Caiaphas and he prophesied but he was not saved, he went about plotting the death of Christ, verse 53.

 

3) one cannot be "in the Spirit" or "in Christ" without first having been water baptized.

 

4) no one would have the Spirit before they have been baptized.

 

5) the purpose as to why the Lord baptized Cornelius with the HS had nothing to do with his personal salvation as it had nothing to do with the personal salvation of the Apostles in Acts 2.  In the context the Lord did at least three things: 1) sent an angel to Cornelius 2) sent Peter a vision showing him the Gentiles were 'clean' therefore do not call them 'unclean and 3) the Lord baptized the Gentiles with the HS. 

 

The reason the Lord did these three things was to prove to the Jews that salvation did not belong to them alone but was to go to the Gentiles also.  This is why any Jew that forbidding water baptism (Acts 10:47) would be attempting to thwart God's will that salvation go to the Gentiles. 

 

After the events in Acts 10 takes place, Peter is in Jerusalem and tells the Jewish Christians there what happened with the Gentiles (Acts 11:1-4). In retelling of these events Peter spoke of these three things the Lord had done, Acts 11:5-11 (vision) Acts 11:13 (the angel) Acts 11:15-17 (baptized Gentiles with the HS).  The result of these three things made the Jews realize that it was the Lord's will that salvation was to go to the Gentiles as seen in Acts 11:18.

 

In Acts 11:14 Peter tells the Jews in Jerusalem HOW the Gentiles would be saved, that being, Peter would tell the Gentiles ".... words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved."   Even though not specified here in Acts 11 we know from Acts 10 those words required Cornelius to "work righteousness" (Acts 10:35) to be accepted with God and being commanded to be water baptized would how he would work righteousness and be saved.  

 

Had Cornelius refused being water bpatized he would have been lost for he would not have had his sins remitted due to his unrighteousness in refusing to be water baptized.  In Acts 2 when the Jews were baptized were are told in Acts 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

 

Note this: they that gladly received the word (saving 'word' per Acts 11:14) were baptized.  The logical consequence of this statement is NOT being baptized is the same as rejecting the saving word.  Likewise had Cornelius rejected water baptism he would be rejecting that saving word.

 

 

 

 

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@Faber you have 24 hours to post.

 

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Thank you seabass for debating this topic with me, and thank you Origen for moderating it.

 

1. When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less' (Through the Looking Glass, Lewis Carrol).

 This is the approach seabass was forced to resort to because as properly defined the words of the Bible do not accord to what he espouses. To go through example after example of this would be painfully redundant and very time consuming. His response to my question (#4) from my last post is evidence enough as to the utter depths his theology descends.

 

2. Cornelius and the Gentiles had obeyed the gospel. Acts 5:32 teaches that God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him. Cornelius and the Gentiles with him were given the Holy Spirit before they were water baptized (Acts 11:17; 15:8). Therefore they obeyed the gospel before they were water baptized. See Part 2, #3 in my first post.

     a. TDNT: Acts knows of a reward in this life for obedience to God. He who obeys God receives as a reward, not earthly goods, but the one and only gift of the last time by which early Christianity differentiates itself from Judaism (Ac. 1:5; 2:1ff.; 8:15; 15:8; 19:1-6), namely, the Spirit of God (5:32; 10:4 ff., 44) (4:725, misthos, Preisker).

 The Holy Spirit is possessed by those who are Christians. Notice how Acts 5:32 and 10:44 are both cited.

 

3. Seabass asserted: In the two cases where the Lord baptized men with the HS in Acts 2 and 10 it was followed by a miraculous sign.  Not all Christians in the first century during the age of miracles had a miraculous sign. 

     My response: I never asserted all Christians did, but the ones who happened to speak in tongues (such as Cornelius and the Gentiles with him) are in the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

          a. NIDNTT: When later in Caesarea the first pagans received the Spirit and became members of the church, they also shared in the grace of worshipping and praising God "in other tongues", as again later the disciples of John the Baptist who became believers in Ephesus (Acts 10:46; 19:6) (3:1080, Word, H. Haarbeck, the bold is mine).

 - These Gentiles received the Spirit (it was at that moment they became members of the church), then they spoke in tongues.-

          

4. Ephesians 4:5

     Seabass asserted: by the time Paul penned his Ephesian epistle there was "one baptism" now in effect in this present dispensation.

     My response: The baptism that is in reference to John's death was still in effect ever since the Lord Jesus spoke of it in Mark 10:35-39 until John's death years after Ephesians was written.

 

5. Filled with the Holy Spirit.

 Seabass completely ignored the fact that if one is filled with the Holy Spirit then they are saved for to be filled with the Spirit "implies that a man is completely controlled and stamped by the powers which fill him. There is in the term a strong element of exclusiveness or totality. The joy, knowledge etc. which fill the Christian shape his whole existence and imperiously claim his whole being (TDNT 6:291, plēroō, Delling, the bold is mine).

 

6. The baptism with the Holy Spirit.

 Luke 24:49

And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high. (NASB, the underlined is mine)

     a. Sent

 When the Holy Spirit was sent (Luke 24:49) to those in Acts 2:4 this means they were baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5). In Galatians 4:6 we see that all Christians have had the Holy Spirit sent to them. Thus all Christians have been baptized with the Holy Spirit.

     b. Clothed

 Those in Acts 2:4 were baptized with the Holy Spirit (cf. Acts 1:5). It is at this time they were clothed with Him (Luke 24:49) and yet all Christians have been clothed with Him when they were baptized with the Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:27).

 

7. In my question #3 to seabass I asked: If one is "in the Spirit" is one "in Christ"?

   His response was: one cannot be "in the Spirit" or "in Christ" without first having been water baptized.

 By his response seabass has just put himself in a terrible dilemma. Here's why:

1. If he insists Cornelius and the Gentiles with him were not "in the Spirit" despite being baptized with the Holy Spirit then neither were the Apostles (plus those with them) "in the Spirit" when they were baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4; cf. Acts 1:5) for both groups received "the same gift" (Acts 11:17) - who is the Holy Spirit Himself (Acts 15:8). But if the Apostles (plus those with them) were not "in the Spirit" then the NT Church (which he even claims began at Pentecost) began with those devoid of the Holy Spirit. Furthermore, they would have preached the gospel later in Acts 2 in which they proclaimed the reception of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) even though they themselves still did not possess Him.

 This position is simply untenable and absurd.

2. It doesn't improve at all for his current theology if he chooses the second choice. If he insists that Cornelius and the Gentles were "in the Spirit" when they were baptized with the Holy Spirit, just as those in Acts 2:4 were, then by necessity they were "worshiping in the Spirit" in Acts 10:46 (cf. Philippians 3:3; Jude 1:20) before their water baptism. Furthermore, to be "in the Spirit" means to be "in Christ" (a saved person). But the theology of seabass can't allow that so he chooses to stick with option #1 despite its atrocious implications.

     a. NIDNTT: Phrases such as in Christ, in the Spirit, in the body, in faith, and in truth indicate states which Christians live and act (3:1191, Appendix F. "en" 4. Figurative Sense, Murray Harris, the underlined is mine).

     b. TDNT: Sometimes Paul can use theos, kyrios and pneuma together because their encounter with the believer is one and the same event (6:434, pneuma, Schweizer).

 

8. The baptism with the Holy Spirit applies to all who are Christians.

     a. William Mounce: The OT stress laid in Isaiah's promise of a Messiah who would have a special endowment of the Spirit (Isa. 61:1-3) and on Joel's prophecy about the pouring out of the Spirit on the godly in the last days (Joel 2:28-29)...Just as John baptized with water, the one coming after him would baptize with the Holy Spirit (Mt. 3:11, 16). Such imagery describes the type of "Spirit baptism" the believer receives (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Spirit, page 676, the underlined and bold are mine).

 

 

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The debate is now over.

 

Thank you @seabass and @Faber.

 

Anyone wishing to comment or critique the debate may do so now.

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Seems to me this debate began with a false pre supposition. 

A person can be saved, meaning having faith in Jesus and ending up in heaven.  Without being baptised in the spirit. 

When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about the Kingdom of God, he was not talking about heaven. 

You can not enter the Kingdom without being baptised in the spirit.  but you can still make it to heaven. 

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4 hours ago, KingdomAgeisnow said:

A person can be saved, meaning having faith in Jesus and ending up in heaven.  Without being baptised in the spirit. 

 

 This is incorrect. 1 Corinthians 12:13 teaches that all who are Christians have been baptized with the Holy Spirit.

     1. William Mounce: The verb is elsewhere used to describe the Christian's baptism by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Give to drink - potizō, page 288, citing 1 Corinthians 12:13).

     2. NIDNTT: it is by being baptized in the one Spirit, drenched with the one Spirit, that individuals become members of the one body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13) (3:701, Spirit, J.D.G. Dunn). 

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2 hours ago, KingdomAgeisnow said:

Seems to me this debate began with a false pre supposition. 

A person can be saved, meaning having faith in Jesus and ending up in heaven.  Without being baptised in the spirit. 

When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about the Kingdom of God, he was not talking about heaven. 

You can not enter the Kingdom without being baptised in the spirit.  but you can still make it to heaven. 

You can not enter the Kingdom without being baptised in the spirit.  but you can still make it to heaven. 

 

 

Joh 3:2  The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 
Joh 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 


Kingdonisnow reads to me as if your words and the Scripture are different

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5 hours ago, KingdomAgeisnow said:

You can not enter the Kingdom without being baptised in the spirit.  but you can still make it to heaven. 

Based on what?

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