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Chiliasm/Historic Premillenialism?

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On 10/11/2018 at 6:38 PM, Hitch said:

This one is way out there.  And it rests almost entirely on disregarding  Paul's  application  of these terms to the church,  household of  God, temple, lively stones  ect.  

 Sorry  I didnt see this until today...

That’s okay my Brother. Are you an Amillennialist?

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So, here’s what I am set on.

 

Christ’s return is future, physical, with a physical resurrection. All those who died in faith will raise first, then those who are alive(saved in proper context) are caught up(raptured) to be with Him in new physical bodies just like His most glorious body. I believe there is no pre-trib rapture, either.

 

Now, seeing Revelation is about the second advent, where does it teach His touching terra firma in that book?

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On 9/18/2018 at 1:33 AM, Placable37 said:

Good old Greek word. Puts chilling out into a whole other perspective. Historic premillennialism is now known as post-trib pre-mill. The much discussed harpatzo (aka rapture) in this explanation, happens after a time of intense pressure, and ushers in the millenium which culminates in the release of Satan from the abyss and subsequent last judgment. 

 

Thank you very much for taking the time and effort to give such an in depth answer. I really do appreciate it! God bless you dear brother.

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On 10/11/2018 at 5:28 PM, Hitch said:

 

Actually Paul said the last enemy is death so it does not and cannot square with your prediction.

In 1 Cor.15:23-28, Paul taught that Christ must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet. That is what the Rev.19:15 "rod of iron" over the nations with the Rev.20 "thousand years" period is about.  And then... after that... the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. So apparently you've got those Scripture events backwards:

 

1 Cor 15:25-26
25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
KJV

 

 

On 10/11/2018 at 5:28 PM, Hitch said:

Curious, what makes you think you can  'spiritualize'  the stated reason for the temple's construction   but hold the position for a brick&mortar building ?

Simply because of what I already said; those Ezekiel descriptions were written during a time before Christ's sacrifice on the cross for sin. Those in OT times wouldn't have understood a temple without the included sacrifices. In the new heavens and a new earth, there won't be a temple. But during Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20, there will be, and that is why the "camp of the saints" is shown on earth in Rev.20, and not up in the clouds.

 

Because of not understanding how our Heavenly Father hid this by showing those OT sacrifices in those Ezekiel chapters for after Christ's return, what does it cause one to think? It's no doubt one of the reasons Dispensationalists came up with their separation idea between a restored Israel on earth and Christ's Church raptured to Heaven. Rev.5 says those in Christ will be made priests and kings and will rule "on the earth". So that immediately strikes out any idea about being raptured to Heaven to rule over the nations after Jesus' return. And it would be a great show of Biblical ignorance to proclaim that rule at any time prior to our Lord Jesus' second coming which is still future.

 

Dispensationalists didn't devise their understanding about Israel's restoration and Jesus building a physical temple after His return. It is written...

 

Zech 6:12-13
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
KJV

 

That 13th verse especially, strikes out any idea that that applied to some flesh OT saint in the past, for no king of Israel ever sat upon a throne over Israel as BOTH king AND priest. That is pointing directly to our Lord Jesus in final. Afterall, David's throne was promised to Jesus, and David's throne is an earthly throne, not a heavenly one.

 

 

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On 10/11/2018 at 5:38 PM, Hitch said:

This one is way out there.  And it rests almost entirely on disregarding  Paul's  application  of these terms to the church,  household of  God, temple, lively stones  ect.  

 Sorry  I didnt see this until today...

Yeah, I know, it's not popular to think the "Father's house" in John 14 is the same "house" of Ezekiel 40 - 48, mainly because the "house" in Ezekiel is shown to be located on earth, and in the middle east...

 

Ezek 47:8-10
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.

9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
KJV

 

That River there issues from under the sanctuary, i.e., the "house". And on either side of that River are the many trees bearing the many fruits that will not be consumed, and their leaves for medicine:

 

Ezek 47:12
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
KJV

 

So right there in those Ezekiel chapters, we are told about a temple sanctuary on earth in the holy land that has NEVER been built to this day (because the dimensions don't fit any previous temple), and manifested with it are God's River and the Tree of Life spoken of in Revelation 22. And just to jog one's memory, God's River of the Waters of Life and... Tree of Life... haven't manifested on this earth since Genesis 2 when God removed them after the fall of Adam and Eve!

 

What many brethren have yet to understand, is that God's Heavenly dimension is going to manifest right here, on earth, when our Lord Jesus returns. Until that future day of Christ's return, there is a veil over the fleshy eyes of man, not able to see the Heavenly (unless God Himself opens it up to one of His servants). When our Lord Jesus returns, that veil will be removed for all, including the wicked. Then all will understand how our Heavenly Father's Abode was once upon this earth, with His River that flowed out of His Garden of Eden.

 

So really, it's amazing how so many brethren miss this from God's Word, which is pointing how the Heavenly was once right here on earth, and with Christ's return, it will begin manifesting here again (i.e., God's River and Tree of Life in the holy land, on earth).

 

How will the rapture work then, some might ask? The so-called 'rapture' (I prefer to say 'gathering to Christ') is about Jesus and His angels gathering His Church from both Heaven (resurrection) and from the earth, ON THE WAY to Jerusalem. It is not about us being taken to live in the clouds above the earth. To make sure we understand this, our Lord Jesus showed in Zechariah 14 that His feet will touch down upon the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from in Acts 1. And He brings all the saints with Him.

 

 

 

 

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On 10/12/2018 at 7:44 AM, Truth7t7 said:

There will be no future 1000 year kingdom on this earth where Jesus Christ will sit on a earthly throne, as humans are born and die around him, as is falsely taught in John N. Darby's & C.I. Scofields Dispensationalism, Once Upon A Time In A Far Distant Land Of Darby & Scofield's Fairy Tales 

I don't hold to what Darby taught. I'm not Pre-trib, nor a Dispensationalist.

 

That our Lord Jesus will inherit David's throne (which is an earthly throne) is Biblical, not a fairy tale. Right now, our Lord Jesus is only sitting on the right hand of The Father's Throne in Heaven. He is yet to take His throne, His inheritance of David's earthly throne. Psalms 2 is about our Lord Jesus reigning on Mount Zion, in Jerusalem. To the Mount of Olives is where He will return to, which is where He ascended to Heaven from per Acts 1. That is on earth, not up in the clouds. Darby did not teach that.

 

When our Lord Jesus does return, God's fire of 2 Peter 3:10 will burn the things of this present world up. All still alive on earth will cast their flesh off at that point also (see Isaiah 25 about death being swallowed up). The ONLY type of death remaining after that point will be the "second death", which is the casting of the spirit with soul into the future "lake of fire" at God's GWT Judgment. As Paul taught in 1 Cor.15:23-28, Jesus must reign until all enemies are made His footstool, and that is what His future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 is about. That will be the time of Rev.2:9 & 3:9 when even the "synagogue of Satan" will bow in worship at the feet of Christ's elect.

 

 

On 10/12/2018 at 7:44 AM, Truth7t7 said:

When Jesus Christ Returns it will be fire time, as the heavens and earth are "Dissolved" by his firey judgement!

 

"ETERNITY BEGINS"!

"Destroyed Them "All"!

Luke 17:29-30King James Version (KJV)
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

Psalm 46:6KJV

The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

 

Malachi 3:2KJV

2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

 

Isaiah 24:20KJV

20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-8King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 3:13King James Version (KJV)
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

2 Peter 3:10-13King James Version (KJV)
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the whichthe heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved,what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

"Then Cometh The End" "Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory", Not A 1000 Year Kingdom On This Earth, Where Humans Are Born, Live, And Die Physical Deaths, John N. Darby & C.I. Scofield, Dallas Theological, Biola, Fairy Tales!

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 & 52-54 King James Version (KJV)
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Don't Be Deceived, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire, "The End"!

 

"Eternity Begins"!

Jesus Christ Is The Lord!

Truth7t7

Your understanding of that consuming fire event is a carnal version, not the actual meaning from God's Word. If your version were true, then there could be no such thing as the "second death" into the "lake of fire" after the future "thousand years" reign of Christ...

 

Rev 20:2-9
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

Satan is still today deceiving the nations, even as Peter warned us in 1 Peter 5:8 that Satan as a roaring lion walks about seeking whom he may devour. So that above event of his being locked in the pit prevented from that deceiving the nations has NEVER happened to this day. It will only occur on the day of Christ's return.

 

 

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

That event is yet to happen today, as there has been NO IMAGE instituted yet in these last days that requires one to bow to or be killed (which is the written requirement in Rev.13 for taking that mark or image). That event is for just prior to Christ's 2nd coming. This judgment giving to them who are the faithful are those who 'overcame' like Jesus forewarned in His Messages to the 7 Churches, which Messages apply as examples for ALL Churches all the way up to His return.

 

 

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

That clearly makes a distinction between Christ's Church which is that "first resurrection" vs. those still subject to that "second death". It is showing a condition that a "thousand years" reign by Christ and His servants will exist while those not of His will be subject to that "second death".

 

Thusly, the "second death" is in effect throughout... that "thousand years" reign, and it is not a death of one's flesh.

 

The first death is a death unto one's flesh body; even the wicked will have a resurrection, what Jesus called the "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:28-29). The first death is NOT... the "second death" of the wicked.

 

It really does not take much deep thought to figure this out per God's Holy Writ...

 

a. If the wicked are resurrected also (but not unto Eternal Life in Christ), then what is destroyed at the "second death"? Afteral, Apostle Paul showed us in 1 Cor.15 what the resurrection is; it is being raised to an incorruptible "spiritual body", the "image of the heavenly".

 

b. Satan and his angels have that image of the heavenly, but not a flesh body. What is it then that goes into the future "lake of fire" which is the "second death"?

 

It is one's spirit with soul that is destroyed at the "second death", which is the casting into the future "lake of fire" after God's GWT Judgment.

 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, davy said:

I don't hold to what Darby taught. I'm not Pre-trib, nor a Dispensationalist.

 

That our Lord Jesus will inherit David's throne (which is an earthly throne) is Biblical, not a fairy tale. Right now, our Lord Jesus is only sitting on the right hand of The Father's Throne in Heaven. He is yet to take His throne, His inheritance of David's earthly throne. Psalms 2 is about our Lord Jesus reigning on Mount Zion, in Jerusalem. To the Mount of Olives is where He will return to, which is where He ascended to Heaven from per Acts 1. That is on earth, not up in the clouds. Darby did not teach that.

 

When our Lord Jesus does return, God's fire of 2 Peter 3:10 will burn the things of this present world up. All still alive on earth will cast their flesh off at that point also (see Isaiah 25 about death being swallowed up). The ONLY type of death remaining after that point will be the "second death", which is the casting of the spirit with soul into the future "lake of fire" at God's GWT Judgment. As Paul taught in 1 Cor.15:23-28, Jesus must reign until all enemies are made His footstool, and that is what His future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 is about. That will be the time of Rev.2:9 & 3:9 when even the "synagogue of Satan" will bow in worship at the feet of Christ's elect.

 

 

Your understanding of that consuming fire event is a carnal version, not the actual meaning from God's Word. If your version were true, then there could be no such thing as the "second death" into the "lake of fire" after the future "thousand years" reign of Christ...

 

Rev 20:2-9
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

Satan is still today deceiving the nations, even as Peter warned us in 1 Peter 5:8 that Satan as a roaring lion walks about seeking whom he may devour. So that above event of his being locked in the pit prevented from that deceiving the nations has NEVER happened to this day. It will only occur on the day of Christ's return.

 

 

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

That event is yet to happen today, as there has been NO IMAGE instituted yet in these last days that requires one to bow to or be killed (which is the written requirement in Rev.13 for taking that mark or image). That event is for just prior to Christ's 2nd coming. This judgment giving to them who are the faithful are those who 'overcame' like Jesus forewarned in His Messages to the 7 Churches, which Messages apply as examples for ALL Churches all the way up to His return.

 

 

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

That clearly makes a distinction between Christ's Church which is that "first resurrection" vs. those still subject to that "second death". It is showing a condition that a "thousand years" reign by Christ and His servants will exist while those not of His will be subject to that "second death".

 

Thusly, the "second death" is in effect throughout... that "thousand years" reign, and it is not a death of one's flesh.

 

The first death is a death unto one's flesh body; even the wicked will have a resurrection, what Jesus called the "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:28-29). The first death is NOT... the "second death" of the wicked.

 

It really does not take much deep thought to figure this out per God's Holy Writ...

 

a. If the wicked are resurrected also (but not unto Eternal Life in Christ), then what is destroyed at the "second death"? Afteral, Apostle Paul showed us in 1 Cor.15 what the resurrection is; it is being raised to an incorruptible "spiritual body", the "image of the heavenly".

 

b. Satan and his angels have that image of the heavenly, but not a flesh body. What is it then that goes into the future "lake of fire" which is the "second death"?

 

It is one's spirit with soul that is destroyed at the "second death", which is the casting into the future "lake of fire" after God's GWT Judgment.

 

 

 

Jesus Christ will return in firey final judgment, immediately after a future great tribulation and human man antichrist seated in Jerusalem.

 

Those currently in hell have experienced the "First Death", the righteous never die spiritually, they are children of the living God.

 

When Jesus returns, death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire, this is the "Second Death", there is no 1000 year to follow after Jesus Christ returns as you believe and teach, I will post the very clear picture in Matthew 25:31-46 

 

Jesus Christ Returns In the final judgment, eternal life, eternal kingdom, as he clearly taught below.

There will be no future 1000 year kingdom anywhere, it will be the eternal New Heaven, Earth, And Jerusalem, "Eternity Begins" 

Verses 31-32 Jesus Returns with the angels, the nations are gathered for judgment.

Verse 34 The eternal kingdom is presented to the righteous.

Verse 41 The wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire.

Verse 46 The righteous obtain eternal life, and enter the eternal kingdom in verse 34

"ETERNITY BEGINS"!

Matthew 25:31-46KJV
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Jesus Christ returns, then "The End Comes" Can't be more "Clear" than that.

There is no 1000 year kingdom hidden between verses 23-24 below.

"Then Cometh The End"

1 Corinthians 15:20-24KJV
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Jesus Christ Is Lord

Truth7t7

Edited by Truth7t7
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1 hour ago, davy said:

Yeah, I know, it's not popular to think the "Father's house" in John 14 is the same "house" of Ezekiel 40 - 48, mainly because the "house" in Ezekiel is shown to be located on earth, and in the middle east...

 

Ezek 47:8-10
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.

9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
KJV

 

That River there issues from under the sanctuary, i.e., the "house". And on either side of that River are the many trees bearing the many fruits that will not be consumed, and their leaves for medicine:

 

Ezek 47:12
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
KJV

 

So right there in those Ezekiel chapters, we are told about a temple sanctuary on earth in the holy land that has NEVER been built to this day (because the dimensions don't fit any previous temple), and manifested with it are God's River and the Tree of Life spoken of in Revelation 22. And just to jog one's memory, God's River of the Waters of Life and... Tree of Life... haven't manifested on this earth since Genesis 2 when God removed them after the fall of Adam and Eve!

 

What many brethren have yet to understand, is that God's Heavenly dimension is going to manifest right here, on earth, when our Lord Jesus returns. Until that future day of Christ's return, there is a veil over the fleshy eyes of man, not able to see the Heavenly (unless God Himself opens it up to one of His servants). When our Lord Jesus returns, that veil will be removed for all, including the wicked. Then all will understand how our Heavenly Father's Abode was once upon this earth, with His River that flowed out of His Garden of Eden.

 

So really, it's amazing how so many brethren miss this from God's Word, which is pointing how the Heavenly was once right here on earth, and with Christ's return, it will begin manifesting here again (i.e., God's River and Tree of Life in the holy land, on earth).

 

How will the rapture work then, some might ask? The so-called 'rapture' (I prefer to say 'gathering to Christ') is about Jesus and His angels gathering His Church from both Heaven (resurrection) and from the earth, ON THE WAY to Jerusalem. It is not about us being taken to live in the clouds above the earth. To make sure we understand this, our Lord Jesus showed in Zechariah 14 that His feet will touch down upon the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from in Acts 1. And He brings all the saints with Him.

 

 

 

 

You quote Ezekiel 47:12 and disregard scripture as if its not even there, why?

 

Ezekiel 47:12 & Revelation 22:1-2 is the "Eternal Kingdom", in the New Heaven And Earth, same river of life coming from the sanctuary/throne, same tree of life bearing fruit every month, same leaves for healing/medicine.

 

Your pre-determined biased in a mortal 1000 year kingdom on this earth has you blind from this truth, scripture interprets itself.

 

Ezekiel 47:12KJV

12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

 

Revelation 22:1-2KJV

22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Edited by Truth7t7
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1 hour ago, davy said:

I don't hold to what Darby taught. I'm not Pre-trib, nor a Dispensationalist.

 

That our Lord Jesus will inherit David's throne (which is an earthly throne) is Biblical, not a fairy tale. Right now, our Lord Jesus is only sitting on the right hand of The Father's Throne in Heaven. He is yet to take His throne, His inheritance of David's earthly throne. Psalms 2 is about our Lord Jesus reigning on Mount Zion, in Jerusalem. To the Mount of Olives is where He will return to, which is where He ascended to Heaven from per Acts 1. That is on earth, not up in the clouds. Darby did not teach that.

 

When our Lord Jesus does return, God's fire of 2 Peter 3:10 will burn the things of this present world up. All still alive on earth will cast their flesh off at that point also (see Isaiah 25 about death being swallowed up). The ONLY type of death remaining after that point will be the "second death", which is the casting of the spirit with soul into the future "lake of fire" at God's GWT Judgment. As Paul taught in 1 Cor.15:23-28, Jesus must reign until all enemies are made His footstool, and that is what His future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 is about. That will be the time of Rev.2:9 & 3:9 when even the "synagogue of Satan" will bow in worship at the feet of Christ's elect.

 

 

Your understanding of that consuming fire event is a carnal version, not the actual meaning from God's Word. If your version were true, then there could be no such thing as the "second death" into the "lake of fire" after the future "thousand years" reign of Christ...

 

Rev 20:2-9
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

Satan is still today deceiving the nations, even as Peter warned us in 1 Peter 5:8 that Satan as a roaring lion walks about seeking whom he may devour. So that above event of his being locked in the pit prevented from that deceiving the nations has NEVER happened to this day. It will only occur on the day of Christ's return.

 

 

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

That event is yet to happen today, as there has been NO IMAGE instituted yet in these last days that requires one to bow to or be killed (which is the written requirement in Rev.13 for taking that mark or image). That event is for just prior to Christ's 2nd coming. This judgment giving to them who are the faithful are those who 'overcame' like Jesus forewarned in His Messages to the 7 Churches, which Messages apply as examples for ALL Churches all the way up to His return.

 

 

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

That clearly makes a distinction between Christ's Church which is that "first resurrection" vs. those still subject to that "second death". It is showing a condition that a "thousand years" reign by Christ and His servants will exist while those not of His will be subject to that "second death".

 

Thusly, the "second death" is in effect throughout... that "thousand years" reign, and it is not a death of one's flesh.

 

The first death is a death unto one's flesh body; even the wicked will have a resurrection, what Jesus called the "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:28-29). The first death is NOT... the "second death" of the wicked.

 

It really does not take much deep thought to figure this out per God's Holy Writ...

 

a. If the wicked are resurrected also (but not unto Eternal Life in Christ), then what is destroyed at the "second death"? Afteral, Apostle Paul showed us in 1 Cor.15 what the resurrection is; it is being raised to an incorruptible "spiritual body", the "image of the heavenly".

 

b. Satan and his angels have that image of the heavenly, but not a flesh body. What is it then that goes into the future "lake of fire" which is the "second death"?

 

It is one's spirit with soul that is destroyed at the "second death", which is the casting into the future "lake of fire" after God's GWT Judgment.

 

 

 

We will look at Revelation 20:2-9 Satan is bound and from what?

 

Many falsely use the verses below to teach this isn't currently taking place because evil is present in the world, satan isn't bound?

 

No place does this scripture state "All Evil Is Bound" satan is bound from "One Specific Purpose" that is "Deceiving The Nations To Battle"

 

Verses 7-8 below clearly defines the "Deception" satan is "Currently" bound from, he is currently unable to perform this "Deception", as the angels 6th vial in Revelation 16:12 has satan sealed and bound, it must be poured out for the seal to be lifted as seen below.

 

Revelation 20:7-9 & Revelation 16:12-17 are the same event, in "Deceiving" the nations to the final battle. 

 

Revelation 20:2-9KJV

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

Revelation 16:12-17KJV

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Edited by Truth7t7
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1 hour ago, davy said:

Yeah, I know, it's not popular to think the "Father's house" in John 14 is the same "house" of Ezekiel 40 - 48, mainly because the "house" in Ezekiel is shown to be located on earth, and in the middle east...

 

Ezek 47:8-10
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.

9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
KJV

 

That River there issues from under the sanctuary, i.e., the "house". And on either side of that River are the many trees bearing the many fruits that will not be consumed, and their leaves for medicine:

 

Ezek 47:12
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
KJV

 

So right there in those Ezekiel chapters, we are told about a temple sanctuary on earth in the holy land that has NEVER been built to this day (because the dimensions don't fit any previous temple), and manifested with it are God's River and the Tree of Life spoken of in Revelation 22. And just to jog one's memory, God's River of the Waters of Life and... Tree of Life... haven't manifested on this earth since Genesis 2 when God removed them after the fall of Adam and Eve!

 

What many brethren have yet to understand, is that God's Heavenly dimension is going to manifest right here, on earth, when our Lord Jesus returns. Until that future day of Christ's return, there is a veil over the fleshy eyes of man, not able to see the Heavenly (unless God Himself opens it up to one of His servants). When our Lord Jesus returns, that veil will be removed for all, including the wicked. Then all will understand how our Heavenly Father's Abode was once upon this earth, with His River that flowed out of His Garden of Eden.

 

So really, it's amazing how so many brethren miss this from God's Word, which is pointing how the Heavenly was once right here on earth, and with Christ's return, it will begin manifesting here again (i.e., God's River and Tree of Life in the holy land, on earth).

 

How will the rapture work then, some might ask? The so-called 'rapture' (I prefer to say 'gathering to Christ') is about Jesus and His angels gathering His Church from both Heaven (resurrection) and from the earth, ON THE WAY to Jerusalem. It is not about us being taken to live in the clouds above the earth. To make sure we understand this, our Lord Jesus showed in Zechariah 14 that His feet will touch down upon the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from in Acts 1. And He brings all the saints with Him.

 

 

 

 

You suggest Ezekiel 40-46 is to be a future 1000 year temple and kingdom in Jerusalem on this earth, nothing could be further from the truth.

 

In Ezekiel 40:1 we see he was given the vision in the 25th year of the Babylonian captivity, in verse (4) he was instructed all he had seen in the vison to tell it to the house of Israel?

 

55 years after the vision, Zerubbabel led the exodus in 536BC in building the 2nd Zerubbabel temple in Jerusalem, with the blessing of King Cyrus and Darius

 

Ezekiel chapters 40-46 have been fulfilled.

 

Hey house of Israel, God gave me a vision on a temple in Jerusalem, he instructed me to tell you all about it, but its not gonna be built for 2,500+ plus years from now, are'nt you happy with Gods blessings?:RpS_confused:

 

Ezekiel 40:1-4 King James Version (KJV)

40 In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the Lord was upon me, and brought me thither.

2 In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south.

3 And he brought me thither, and, behold, there was a man, whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a line of flax in his hand, and a measuring reed; and he stood in the gate.

4 And the man said unto me, Son of man, behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thine heart upon all that I shall shew thee; for to the intent that I might shew them unto thee art thou brought hither: declare all that thou seest to the house of Israel.

Edited by Truth7t7
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27 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

Jesus Christ will return in firey final judgment, immediately after a future great tribulation and human man antichrist seated in Jerusalem.

Yes. But there is another... consuming fire event written for after the "thousand years" of Rev.20. It is only when Satan is loosed one final time to go tempt the nations, and they go up against the "camp of the saints" one earth. Then God rains a consuming fire upon them, as written. So there's different judgments at different times, but only one GWT Judgment, and it doesn't occur until a thousand years after... Christ's 2nd coming, as shown there in Rev.20.

 

 

27 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

Those currently in hell have experienced the "First Death", the righteous never die spiritually, they are children of the living God.

But there are wicked that will still be alive on earth when our Lord Jesus comes. Our Lord Jesus showed us in John 5:28-29 they will be changed to the "resurrection of damnation" also on the day of His second coming. Apostle Paul also stated that it was his desire that there would be both a resurrection for the just, and for the unjust (Acts 24:15). Paul would not have desired that for the wicked unless he knew some of them could be saved during Christ's thousand years reign. So that's yet another one of the reasons I see great error in amillennial's omission of that thousand years reign by Christ and His elect after His return.

 

 

27 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

When Jesus returns, death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire, this is the "Second Death", there is no 1000 year to follow after Jesus Christ returns as you believe and teach, I will post the very clear picture in Matthew 25:31-46 

Well, Rev.20 states there will be a thousand years reign by our Lord Jesus and His elect. And it's not difficult to understand the parameters given there that it is for after His future return.

 

As for Matthew 25, you won't disprove the Rev.20 thousand years there either. Just because our Lord Jesus didn't mention the thousand years there does not mean it won't happen like Rev.20 reveals. After all, His Revelation is about 'the revealing', which is the meaning of the title of the Book. There's more than the thousand years event in Rev.20 that He revealed that's not written in The Gospel Books. So the proof by omission idea does not work.

 

Moreover, the Matt.25:30 verse speaks of the unprofitable servant being cast to the "outer darkness"? It appears you don't really know what that "outer darkness" is, nor when it is.

 

Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV

 

The timing of the "outer darkness" is at... Jesus' 2nd coming. It's when He establishes His Kingdom with His elect.

 

 

Matt 22:9-14
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
KJV

 

That example above shows His Kingdom already in effect after His return, the marriage supper getting ready to take place once everyone is gathered to Him. The one without the wedding garment is cast to that "outer darkness". But what is it still? It is this...

 

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV

 

After Christ's return, outside... the holy city on earth, will be those "dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." That is the "resurrection of damnation", the truly 'dead', because their souls will still be in liable to die condition subject to the "second death".

 

Therefore, the wicked still alive on earth at Christ's coming are changed to the resurrection of damnation too, and will be under the "second death" all throughout Christ's thousand years reign. THAT... is who those "nations" are of Rev.20 after Jesus returns; they are all subject to the "second death" in that time. Those are the ones at the end of Zechariah 14 which refuse to come up to Jerusalem from years to year, to worship The King, The LORD of Hosts, and keep the feast of tabernacles. And that is for AFTER Christ's return there.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, davy said:

Yes. But there is another... consuming fire event written for after the "thousand years" of Rev.20. It is only when Satan is loosed one final time to go tempt the nations, and they go up against the "camp of the saints" one earth. Then God rains a consuming fire upon them, as written. So there's different judgments at different times, but only one GWT Judgment, and it doesn't occur until a thousand years after... Christ's 2nd coming, as shown there in Rev.20.

 

 

But there are wicked that will still be alive on earth when our Lord Jesus comes. Our Lord Jesus showed us in John 5:28-29 they will be changed to the "resurrection of damnation" also on the day of His second coming. Apostle Paul also stated that it was his desire that there would be both a resurrection for the just, and for the unjust (Acts 24:15). Paul would not have desired that for the wicked unless he knew some of them could be saved during Christ's thousand years reign. So that's yet another one of the reasons I see great error in amillennial's omission of that thousand years reign by Christ and His elect after His return.

 

 

Well, Rev.20 states there will be a thousand years reign by our Lord Jesus and His elect. And it's not difficult to understand the parameters given there that it is for after His future return.

 

As for Matthew 25, you won't disprove the Rev.20 thousand years there either. Just because our Lord Jesus didn't mention the thousand years there does not mean it won't happen like Rev.20 reveals. After all, His Revelation is about 'the revealing', which is the meaning of the title of the Book. There's more than the thousand years event in Rev.20 that He revealed that's not written in The Gospel Books. So the proof by omission idea does not work.

 

Moreover, the Matt.25:30 verse speaks of the unprofitable servant being cast to the "outer darkness"? It appears you don't really know what that "outer darkness" is, nor when it is.

 

Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV

 

The timing of the "outer darkness" is at... Jesus' 2nd coming. It's when He establishes His Kingdom with His elect.

 

 

Matt 22:9-14
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
KJV

 

That example above shows His Kingdom already in effect after His return, the marriage supper getting ready to take place once everyone is gathered to Him. The one without the wedding garment is cast to that "outer darkness". But what is it still? It is this...

 

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV

 

After Christ's return, outside... the holy city on earth, will be those "dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." That is the "resurrection of damnation", the truly 'dead', because their souls will still be in liable to die condition subject to the "second death".

 

Therefore, the wicked still alive on earth at Christ's coming are changed to the resurrection of damnation too, and will be under the "second death" all throughout Christ's thousand years reign. THAT... is who those "nations" are of Rev.20 after Jesus returns; they are all subject to the "second death" in that time. Those are the ones at the end of Zechariah 14 which refuse to come up to Jerusalem from years to year, to worship The King, The LORD of Hosts, and keep the feast of tabernacles. And that is for AFTER Christ's return there.

 

 

Who are God's elect?

 

Colossians 3:12KJV

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

 

1 Thessalonians 1:4KJV

Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

 

1 Peter 1:2KJV

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

 

1 Peter 5:13KJV

The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

 

2 Peter 1:10KJV

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

You quote Ezekiel 47:12 and disregard scripture as if its not even there, why?

Be careful. You are fabricating a falsehood with that. I showed that Ezek.47:12 verse links to the same subject written in Rev.22 about that tree and "the leaf thereof for medicine". You'll have a difficult time disproving it. So best not get cocky as if you've already caught me doing something you've yet to prove.

 

 

38 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

Ezekiel 47:12 & Revelation 22:1-2 is the "Eternal Kingdom", in the New Heaven And Earth, same river of life coming from the sanctuary/throne, same tree of life bearing fruit every month, same leaves for healing/medicine.

Really?

 

Rev 21:22
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
KJV

 

When the new heavens and a new earth timing begins, there will no longer be a temple. Thus the Ezekiel 47 sanctuary will no longer exist when the new heavens and a new earth begins. That means of course, the Ezekiel temple must... exist prior to that. And I can guarantee, any temple the orthodox Jews build today will not match the one in Ezekiel, especially with God's River and the Tree of Life like its says in Ezek.47.

 


The rest of your post doesn't even fit what I explained in my previous post.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, davy said:

Yes. But there is another... consuming fire event written for after the "thousand years" of Rev.20. It is only when Satan is loosed one final time to go tempt the nations, and they go up against the "camp of the saints" one earth. Then God rains a consuming fire upon them, as written. So there's different judgments at different times, but only one GWT Judgment, and it doesn't occur until a thousand years after... Christ's 2nd coming, as shown there in Rev.20.

 

 

But there are wicked that will still be alive on earth when our Lord Jesus comes. Our Lord Jesus showed us in John 5:28-29 they will be changed to the "resurrection of damnation" also on the day of His second coming. Apostle Paul also stated that it was his desire that there would be both a resurrection for the just, and for the unjust (Acts 24:15). Paul would not have desired that for the wicked unless he knew some of them could be saved during Christ's thousand years reign. So that's yet another one of the reasons I see great error in amillennial's omission of that thousand years reign by Christ and His elect after His return.

 

 

Well, Rev.20 states there will be a thousand years reign by our Lord Jesus and His elect. And it's not difficult to understand the parameters given there that it is for after His future return.

 

As for Matthew 25, you won't disprove the Rev.20 thousand years there either. Just because our Lord Jesus didn't mention the thousand years there does not mean it won't happen like Rev.20 reveals. After all, His Revelation is about 'the revealing', which is the meaning of the title of the Book. There's more than the thousand years event in Rev.20 that He revealed that's not written in The Gospel Books. So the proof by omission idea does not work.

 

Moreover, the Matt.25:30 verse speaks of the unprofitable servant being cast to the "outer darkness"? It appears you don't really know what that "outer darkness" is, nor when it is.

 

Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV

 

The timing of the "outer darkness" is at... Jesus' 2nd coming. It's when He establishes His Kingdom with His elect.

 

 

Matt 22:9-14
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
KJV

 

That example above shows His Kingdom already in effect after His return, the marriage supper getting ready to take place once everyone is gathered to Him. The one without the wedding garment is cast to that "outer darkness". But what is it still? It is this...

 

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV

 

After Christ's return, outside... the holy city on earth, will be those "dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." That is the "resurrection of damnation", the truly 'dead', because their souls will still be in liable to die condition subject to the "second death".

 

Therefore, the wicked still alive on earth at Christ's coming are changed to the resurrection of damnation too, and will be under the "second death" all throughout Christ's thousand years reign. THAT... is who those "nations" are of Rev.20 after Jesus returns; they are all subject to the "second death" in that time. Those are the ones at the end of Zechariah 14 which refuse to come up to Jerusalem from years to year, to worship The King, The LORD of Hosts, and keep the feast of tabernacles. And that is for AFTER Christ's return there.

 

 

Zechariah 14 is the "Eternal Kingdom" after the firey return of Jesus Christ in final judgment.

 

Verses 1-4 The day of the Lord and the final battle and second advent is seen.

 

Verses 6-8 Eternal Light and the river of life In The Eternal Kingdom, Revelation 22:1-5

 

Verse 10 the New Creation is being revealed, as the plain is lifted, the battle is finished as the kings winepress in Armageddon is mentioned.

 

Verse 12 Gods last day judgment by fire, as man is consumed by this fire, eyes, tounges, flesh, as they stand upon their feet.

 

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

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14 minutes ago, davy said:

Be careful. You are fabricating a falsehood with that. I showed that Ezek.47:12 verse links to the same subject written in Rev.22 about that tree and "the leaf thereof for medicine". You'll have a difficult time disproving it. So best not get cocky as if you've already caught me doing something you've yet to prove.

 

 

Really?

 

Rev 21:22
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
KJV

 

When the new heavens and a new earth timing begins, there will no longer be a temple. Thus the Ezekiel 47 sanctuary will no longer exist when the new heavens and a new earth begins. That means of course, the Ezekiel temple must... exist prior to that. And I can guarantee, any temple the orthodox Jews build today will not match the one in Ezekiel, especially with God's River and the Tree of Life like its says in Ezek.47.

 


The rest of your post doesn't even fit what I explained in my previous post.

 

 

Ezekiel 47:12 & Revelation 22:1-5 is the same place, same river and tree of life, same fruit every month, same leaves for healing/medicine

 

"ETERNAL"!

 

How could any person deny the facts as seen below, 100% the same place.

 

You have a bias in not seeing this truth, you have a 1000 year kingdom to build for the Jews on this earth, are they gonna be sacrificing animals in it toooo, as the Lamb of God sits on the eternal throne watching?

 

Ezekiel 47:12KJV

12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

 

Revelation 22:1-2KJV

22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Edited by Truth7t7
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19 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

How could any person deny the facts as seen below, 100% the same place.

@Truth7t7  Perhaps it would be fruitful to address a person's presuppositions, as well as the methods and principals of interpretation (hermeneutics) used to approach the books in question? Obviously, the different "schools of thought" (Post, Amil, Disp., etc) hold to different hermeneutics.

 

Personally, I think these debates and arguments with respect to Eschatology are a waste of time until these are addressed. If a mutual foundation can't be agreed upon then there is no sense moving forward because varying methods and principals result in different outcomes.

In my view there's not much more damaging to Christianity than bad Eschatology. Therefore, I cringe over the Eschatology category on the board.

 

God bless,

William

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32 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

We will look at Revelation 20:2-9 Satan is bound and from what?

 

Many falsely use the verses below to teach this isn't currently taking place because evil is present in the world, satan isn't bound?

 

No place does this scripture state "All Evil Is Bound" satan is bound from "One Specific Purpose" that is "Deceiving The Nations To Battle"

All evil ending won't happen until the devil himself and the wicked, and even death, go into the future lake of fire at God's GWT Judgement. So you trying to CREATE a technicality outside His Word that He must accomplish is to loose your point.

 

When Rev.20:3 says Satan is bound for a thousand years and not able to deceive the nations during that period, that means he is not able to work evil, regardless of how you may want to spin against that.

 

 

32 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

Verses 7-8 below clearly defines the "Deception" satan is "Currently" bound from, he is currently unable to perform this "Deception", as the angels 6th vial in Revelation 16:12 has satan sealed and bound, it must be poured out for the seal to be lifted as seen below.

 

Revelation 20:7-9 & Revelation 16:12-17 are the same event, in "Deceiving" the nations to the final battle. 

 

Revelation 20:2-9KJV

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

Revelation 16:12-17KJV

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

 

You are wrong. Terribly wrong.

 

Rev 20:2-5
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
KJV

 

That "mark" and "image" of the beast is for a working at the very end of this world just prior to Christ's return. It is what Jesus called a time of "great tribulation" in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. In Rev.13 we are shown a false one coming to work great signs and wonders and establishing that image and mark. That event has NEVER happened yet to this day. That is why Jesus and Dan.12:1 remarked how it will be a day that has never been the likes, nor will there ever be again.

 

And the dead giveaway of how you are so wrong from that above Rev.20 Scripture?

 

"This is the first resurrection".

 

That single phrase is being linked to those events in this order:

a. Satan locked in the pit

b. those who refused the mark and/or image at the end live with Jesus and reign with Him for a thousand years

c. those are the "first resurrection"

 

That means... AFTER Christ's return is when that "first resurrection" manifests!!! Not before like you're trying to push a doctrine of men into the Scripture where it does not exist.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, davy said:

All evil ending won't happen until the devil himself and the wicked, and even death, go into the future lake of fire at God's GWT Judgement. So you trying to CREATE a technicality outside His Word that He must accomplish is to loose your point.

 

When Rev.20:3 says Satan is bound for a thousand years and not able to deceive the nations during that period, that means he is not able to work evil, regardless of how you may want to spin against that.

 

 

 

You are wrong. Terribly wrong.

 

Rev 20:2-5
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
KJV

 

That "mark" and "image" of the beast is for a working at the very end of this world just prior to Christ's return. It is what Jesus called a time of "great tribulation" in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. In Rev.13 we are shown a false one coming to work great signs and wonders and establishing that image and mark. That event has NEVER happened yet to this day. That is why Jesus and Dan.12:1 remarked how it will be a day that has never been the likes, nor will there ever be again.

 

And the dead giveaway of how you are so wrong from that above Rev.20 Scripture?

 

"This is the first resurrection".

 

That single phrase is being linked to those events in this order:

a. Satan locked in the pit

b. those who refused the mark and/or image at the end live with Jesus and reign with Him for a thousand years

c. those are the "first resurrection"

 

That means... AFTER Christ's return is when that "first resurrection" manifests!!! Not before like you're trying to push a doctrine of men into the Scripture where it does not exist.

 

 

Its your private interpretation that "Deceive The Nations" means all evil in the world, you have been clearly shown the interpretation, as "Deceive The Nations" is to the final battle, and has absolutely nothing to do with present evil in the world.

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35 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

You suggest Ezekiel 40-46 is to be a future 1000 year temple and kingdom in Jerusalem on this earth, nothing could be further from the truth.

That underlined part is called an affirmation. It's not proof of anything. It's very much like a fairly tale wish. It's something one may wish to be true, but it is not necessarily true.

 

 

35 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

In Ezekiel 40:1 we see he was given the vision in the 25th year of the Babylonian captivity, in verse (4) he was instructed all he had seen in the vison to tell it to the house of Israel?

 

55 years after the vision, Zerubbabel led the exodus in 536BC in building the 2nd Zerubbabel temple in Jerusalem, with the blessing of King Cyrus and Darius

 

Ezekiel chapters 40-46 have been fulfilled.

We know that isn't true, and it's easy to know. The River of waters flowing out of the sanctuary of Ezekiel 47 did not happen with the 2nd temple built by the Jews after their 70 years Babylon captivity. The Jews even were sad because of how the 2nd temple building didn't match anywhere close to the glory of Solomon's temple! That's not even getting into the much, much larger temple layout given in Ezekiel either.

 

So absolutely not. The 2nd temple in Jerusalem did not fit the Ezekiel 40-48 layout. Any future temple built by the orthodox Jews prior to Jesus' 2nd coming won't fit either.

 

Rest of your post is just a joke and not worth responding to.

 

33 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

Who are God's elect?

 

Colossians 3:12KJV

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

 

1 Thessalonians 1:4KJV

Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

 

1 Peter 1:2KJV

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

 

1 Peter 5:13KJV

The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

 

2 Peter 1:10KJV

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

 

 

Well, now you're trying to preach to me when I don't require your preaching; I already know my standing with our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

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9 minutes ago, davy said:

All evil ending won't happen until the devil himself and the wicked, and even death, go into the future lake of fire at God's GWT Judgement. So you trying to CREATE a technicality outside His Word that He must accomplish is to loose your point.

 

When Rev.20:3 says Satan is bound for a thousand years and not able to deceive the nations during that period, that means he is not able to work evil, regardless of how you may want to spin against that.

 

 

 

You are wrong. Terribly wrong.

 

Rev 20:2-5
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
KJV

 

That "mark" and "image" of the beast is for a working at the very end of this world just prior to Christ's return. It is what Jesus called a time of "great tribulation" in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. In Rev.13 we are shown a false one coming to work great signs and wonders and establishing that image and mark. That event has NEVER happened yet to this day. That is why Jesus and Dan.12:1 remarked how it will be a day that has never been the likes, nor will there ever be again.

 

And the dead giveaway of how you are so wrong from that above Rev.20 Scripture?

 

"This is the first resurrection".

 

That single phrase is being linked to those events in this order:

a. Satan locked in the pit

b. those who refused the mark and/or image at the end live with Jesus and reign with Him for a thousand years

c. those are the "first resurrection"

 

That means... AFTER Christ's return is when that "first resurrection" manifests!!! Not before like you're trying to push a doctrine of men into the Scripture where it does not exist.

 

 

Once again the non literal 1000 years is taking place currently in the spiritual realm, all the way to the second advent, those saints seen in Revelation 20:5-6 are presently reigning, and will reingn in the future at their deaths from the tribulation.

 

Theere is one future resurrection of all on "The Last Day" there are "Two Resurrections" seen below, the righteous are in the "First Resurrection" to life, the wicked are in the "Second Resurrection" in the second death.

 

There will be no future 1000 year kingdom anywhere, this is symbolic language showing the Lords spiritual realm of no earthly time.

 

Revelation 20:5-6KJV

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

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23 minutes ago, William said:

@Truth7t7  Perhaps it would be fruitful to address a person's presuppositions, as well as the methods and principals of interpretation (hermeneutics) used to approach the books in question? Obviously, the different "schools of thought" (Post, Amil, Disp., etc) hold to different hermeneutics.

 

Personally, I think these debates and arguments with respect to Eschatology are a waste of time until these are addressed. If a mutual foundation can't be agreed upon then there is no sense moving forward because varying methods and principals result in different outcomes.

In my view there's not much more damaging to Christianity than bad Eschatology. Therefore, I cringe over the Eschatology category on the board.

 

God bless,

William

I hear what your saying William, but were dealing with basic common sense, how could any person deny the verses seen below are'nt the same place?

 

I agree on your concern regarding eschatology, after a few post I let it go, I was once involved in dispensationalism 20 years worth

 

Same Place William, how can you deny it?

 

Ezekiel 47:12KJV

12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

 

Revelation 22:1-2KJV

22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

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44 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

I hear what your saying William, but were dealing with basic common sense, how could any person deny the verses seen below are'nt the same place?

Common sense only exists when there is communication between two or more parties. How can anyone other than one person develop "a common sense" if they can't relate to you due to the lack of communication on an issue (hermeneutics)? Personally, I ask others to at least see from my perspective, if they believe they can see the truth clearer from another perspective or hermeneutical lens then I can accept that.

 

44 minutes ago, Truth7t7 said:

Same Place William, how can you deny it?

 

Ezekiel 47:12KJV

12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

 

Revelation 22:1-2KJV

22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

 

My first thoughts when reading yours and your opponents posts? The architecture or building plans for a "physical" Ezekiel temple are horrible. Let's ask @atpollard an architect if memory serves me correct? Yes brother, I went there and put you on the spot 😎

 

God bless,

William

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3 hours ago, davy said:

That underlined part is called an affirmation. It's not proof of anything. It's very much like a fairly tale wish. It's something one may wish to be true, but it is not necessarily true.

 

 

We know that isn't true, and it's easy to know. The River of waters flowing out of the sanctuary of Ezekiel 47 did not happen with the 2nd temple built by the Jews after their 70 years Babylon captivity. The Jews even were sad because of how the 2nd temple building didn't match anywhere close to the glory of Solomon's temple! That's not even getting into the much, much larger temple layout given in Ezekiel either.

 

So absolutely not. The 2nd temple in Jerusalem did not fit the Ezekiel 40-48 layout. Any future temple built by the orthodox Jews prior to Jesus' 2nd coming won't fit either.

 

Rest of your post is just a joke and not worth responding to.

 

 

Well, now you're trying to preach to me when I don't require your preaching; I already know my standing with our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Ezekiel chapters 40-46 represent the Zerubbabel temple built and fulfilled in 536BC

 

Ezekiel chapters 47-48 represent the "Eternal Kingdom"

 

Wasn't trying to preach, just seeing if you believe and teach the "Jews" as a ethnic race are Gods elect?

 

The two pepoles of God doctrine?

Edited by Truth7t7

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2 hours ago, William said:

Common sense only exists when there is communication between two or more parties. How can anyone other than one person develop "a common sense" if they can't relate to you due to the lack of communication on an issue (hermeneutics)? Personally, I ask others to at least see from my perspective, if they believe they can see the truth clearer from another perspective or hermeneutical lens then I can accept that.

 

 

My first thoughts when reading yours and your opponents posts? The architecture or building plans for a "physical" Ezekiel temple are horrible. Let's ask @atpollard an architect if memory serves me correct? Yes brother, I went there and put you on the spot 😎

 

God bless,

William

Do you believe in a physical, tangible eternal kingdom?

 

Do you believe 2 Peter 3:10-13 is literal fire and destruction of this earth?

 

What is your take of Revelation 21 & 22?

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On 10/14/2018 at 12:17 AM, SovereignGrace said:

I am not against the Amillennialist view(seeing I was one for years) but how the Bible spells out the 1,000 years is something I haven’t fully grasped. Is it literal? Is it figurative? That’s why I was asking for only historic-premillennialists to respond.

To me, the 1,000 years Millennial kingdom on a new earth at REVELATION.20 & 21 is literal, just like the literal 7-days Creation account at GENESIS.1 & 2.

 

Just prior to the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ to this earth, there will be Great Persecution and Tribulation against Christian believers by many  powerful nations/governments, including by the US government, eg those believers who refuse to accept the "mark of the beast" for buying and selling(= computer chip implants.?) will be prosecuted/persecuted/executed/martyred by the powerful nations/governments or will be left alone to starve to death - REVELATION.13:11-18 & 14:9 & 20:4.

 

The Lord/God Jesus Christ will return to earth to Rapture or deliver or "save" the remaining living believers on earth while also resurrecting the dead believers into the clouds - 1THESSALONIANS.4:16-17 and 1CORINTHIANS.15:42 & 52. Then He will destroy this rotten earth and all the remaining unbelievers on it(REV.6 & 7), eg unrepentant persecutors/murderers, mockers, atheists, Satanists, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, LGBTQs, witches, sorcerers, sinners/evildoers/law-breakers, etc.

 

Thereafter, the Lord/God Jesus Christ will create a new earth for His people and reign for 1,000 years on this new earth(NB; His people are not yet in heaven) = a Millennial kingdom on a new earth that will be void of Satan+demons and unbelievers. Why.? Maybe to serve as a spiritual training ground on earth before their final entry into the kingdom of heaven to actually see God face-to-face on His heavenly throne - EZEKIEL.1 and REVELATION.4. Today, no one on earth has actually seen God the Father in heaven - JOHN.1:18 & 5:37, EXODUS.33:20. Believers on earth could only "see" the Lord/God Jesus Christ because a great gulf separates heaven and earth, and the Holy God and inherently evil/satanic/sinful humans.

 

At the end of the 1,000 years, comes Judgment Day when the believers will "graduate" or continue into the eternal kingdom of heaven while unbelievers will be resurrected into eternal hell or the lake of fire and brimstone(= the second death of REV.20:14).

 

God's plan for mankind on earth from GENESIS.1 onward is to replace the rebellious/unfaithful Satan and his demons(= fallen Archangel and angels) with faithful humans as His servants in heaven - EZEKIEL.28:17, ISAIAH.14:12, REVELATION.12:4-9. This earth may be like His laboratory or test-lab.

Edited by discipler77
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