Jump to content

The Christian Protestant Community Forums

Sincerely inquiring about the Protestant faith? Welcome to Christforums the Christian Protestant community forums. You'll first need to register in order to join our community. Create or respond to threads on your favorite topics and subjects. Registration takes less than a minute, it's simple, fast, and free! Enjoy the fellowship! God bless, Christforums' Staff
Register now

Community Fellowship

John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
Emekrus

Is Prosperity For The Present Church?

Recommended Posts

“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.” – Ezekiel 36:26-30 (emphasis mine)

 

It is commonly argued that prosperity is not for the New Testament Church. And that as a matter of fact, the entire prosperity doctrine is false…

 

But from the highlighted clauses of the opening text, it is obvious that such arguments are not true. The opening text is a copy of the New Covenant as prophesied by the Prophet Ezekiel. And it was fulfilled and ratified by the death of Christ on the cross. By the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, anyone who believes in him (Jesus) becomes an automatic partaker of the New Covenant, and all its tenets.

 

And as a result, anyone who believes in Christ receives a change of heart, and the Holy Spirit as stated in the Covenant…

 

And in much the same way, anyone who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, also becomes a partaker of the prosperity clauses of the same New Covenant (Ezekiel 36: 29-30).

 

It is also argued that this Covenant is actually directed at the Jews. That is true. But however, the scripture tells us that we are fellow-citizens with the saints through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. And that the wall of partition between us and the Jew was broken in his flesh. Hence, we—Gentiles—also have access to the Covenants of promise (Ephesians 2:11-19).

 

If we believe that every Christian under the New Covenant already has changed hearts. And the Holy Spirit indwelling in them, to enable them keep the statutes of God as it is contained in the New Covenant, we shouldn’t also have problem believing that every believer is also prosperous.

 

Here are the divine prosperity clauses of the New Covenant again from the book of Ezekiel 36: 29-30;

 

“I also will save you from all your uncleanness: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen”

 

In the above scripture, the Lord clearly promises us prosperity. And he assures us of not receiving anymore reproach of famine among the heathen.

 

Now a matter must be established in the mouth of two or three witnesses. So let us consider another scripture that guarantees that divine prosperity is for the present church;
 

Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the Churches of Macedonia; how that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality. For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves; praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of ministering to the saints. And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God. Insomuch that we desired Titus, that as he had begun, so he would also finish in you the same grace also. Therefore, as ye abound in everything, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.
 

I speak not by commandment but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.  For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor; that ye through his poverty might be rich.” –2Corinthians 8:1-9

 

I had to quote this particular scripture to this length so we can get the exact context. Because many say it is being interpreted out of context. The above scripture is clearly talking about the giving grace God bestowed upon the Macedonian churches. Verse 2 says in their great trial of affliction, the abundance of their Joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality. So clearly, this scripture is talking about the giving grace.

 

Then in verse 7 the Apostle Paul admonishes the Corinthians that as  they abound or increase in spiritual gifts such as faith, utterance, knowledge, diligence, and love, they should see to it that they also abound or increase in the giving grace also. Then in verse 9 he  says;

 

“For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.”

 

Concerning the above verse (verse 9), many argue that the riches referred to here are spiritual riches. But   saying that will imply that the Apostle Paul meant;

 

“For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was spiritually rich, yet for your sakes he became spiritually poor, that ye through his spiritual poverty might be spiritually rich.”

 

Of course, the above quotation can’t be farther from the truth. It is scripturally obvious that Jesus was never spiritually poor while he was here on earth. He couldn’t have been spiritually poor, after living a blameless, holy life… After healing all manners of sickness and diseases. And even after raising the dead. No. The true interpretation is;

 

“For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was materially rich, yet for your sakes he became materially poor, that ye through his material poverty might be materially rich”.

 

The above interpretation is in perfect harmony with scriptural truth. We all know that the only poverty the Lord suffered while he was here on earth was material poverty. Especially not having where to lay his head. Hence, he suffered material poverty so we can enjoy material riches.

 

I agree divine prosperity and the prosperity doctrine has been abused and pushed to some extremes by many folks. But like I always say, doctrinal and other abuses or extremism is not only the vice of the prosperity doctrine. Other doctrines such as grace, deliverance, faith, sanctification, etc…

 

 have also been abused and pushed to the extreme. But the panacea or antidote is not to entirely reject these true and wholesome scriptural doctrines.

 

Because doing so will amount to throwing the tares along with the wheat. And it will thus, create loopholes for the devil to take advantage of. Instead, we should study our bibles carefully and pray more fervently so we will be able to receive the right spiritual insight to be able to separate the shafts from the wheat.

 

So here we have it. Divine prosperity is for the present Church. Firstly, because it is a part of the New Covenant; and secondly, our Lord Jesus Christ, substituted his earthly material poverty for it.

 

Remain Blessed!

 

Emeke Odili.

  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Emekrus said:

“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.”Ezekiel 36:26-30 (emphasis mine)

Don't forget the remainder of this chapter in Ezekiel's prophecy, especially the emboldened parts:

Eze 36:31-38
(31)  Then shall you remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
(32)  Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
(33)  Thus says the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
(34)  And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
(35)  And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
(36)  Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
(37)  Thus says the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.
(38)  As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Placable37 said:

Don't forget the remainder of this chapter in Ezekiel's prophecy, especially the emboldened parts:

Eze 36:31-38
(31)  Then shall you remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
(32)  Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
(33)  Thus says the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
(34)  And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
(35)  And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
(36)  Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
(37)  Thus says the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.
(38)  As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
 

Can you come out clear with your point Sir?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Emekrus said:

Can you come out clear with your point Sir?

To get a better understanding of the passage you quoted in Ezekiel look at the immediate context. What do you notice? God wants to show you more about His dealings with His people. Bless you, Goodnight for now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2 Corinthians 8:2

that in a great ordeal of affliction their abundance of joy and their deep poverty overflowed in the wealth of their liberality. (NASB, the underlined is mine).

 

1. A. T. Robertson: Poverty down deep.
http://www.godrules.net/library/robert/robert2cor8.htm

 

 

 Christians can be poor and some can be very poor.

  • Like 1
  • Best Answer 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moderator

2Corinthians 8:9 is about Christ giving all. Christ is given as an example of sacrificial love.

 

If we back up some we see that Paul is trying to move the Corinthians to give.

2Corinthians 8:8

I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Innerfire89 said:

2Corinthians 8:9 is about Christ giving all. Christ is given as an example of sacrificial love.

 

If we back up some we see that Paul is trying to move the Corinthians to give.

2Corinthians 8:8

I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.

 

 

Well, that is to say you agree with me that Paul was preaching prosperity. Because you can't give and remain poor.

From my personal experience, the more I give, the richer I become. Anyone who preaches giving and remains poor is likely not walking his talk. Because giving makes richer, not poorer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moderator
6 hours ago, Emekrus said:

Well, that is to say you agree with me that Paul was preaching prosperity. Because you can't give and remain poor.

From my personal experience, the more I give, the richer I become. Anyone who preaches giving and remains poor is likely not walking his talk. Because giving makes richer, not poorer

How does giving make you richer?

And if the reason for giving is receiving then it is not truly in the spirit charity. 

 

Whatever your experience maybe, it is not the only experience to be had. We already know that people are decived and scared out of money all the time. Many people are left in financial ruin from giving to false teachers who claim that their "seed sowing" will come back ten fold. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Staff
16 hours ago, Emekrus said:

Well, that is to say you agree with me that Paul was preaching prosperity. Because you can't give and remain poor.

From my personal experience, the more I give, the richer I become. Anyone who preaches giving and remains poor is likely not walking his talk. Because giving makes richer, not poorer

If you're expecting your material wealth to prosper then you're following in the footsteps of so many sham artists. You may be more materially wealthy but you're quite poor spiritually:

  • Matthew 6:19-20 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.

You may be prospering off the damned in their unrighteousness but you're not fooling God.

  • Jeremiah 17:10 “I the LORD search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”

Don't be fooled by Prosperity Gospel teachers, their million dollar mansions, and their private jets. They are bankrupt in heaven.

 

 

God bless,

William

 

  • Like 2
  • Best Answer 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, William said:

If you're expecting your material wealth to prosper then you're following in the footsteps of so many sham artists. You may be more materially wealthy but you're quite poor spiritually:

  • Matthew 6:19-20 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.

You may be prospering off the damned in their unrighteousness but you're not fooling God.

  • Jeremiah 17:10 “I the LORD search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”

Don't be fooled by Prosperity Gospel teachers, their million dollar mansions, and their private jets. They are bankrupt in heaven.

 

 

God bless,

William

 

Well,

 

Suppose I am super sure I am spiritually rich and also financially rich... How about that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Innerfire89 said:

How does giving make you richer?

And if the reason for giving is receiving then it is not truly in the spirit charity. 

 

Whatever your experience maybe, it is not the only experience to be had. We already know that people are decived and scared out of money all the time. Many people are left in financial ruin from giving to false teachers who claim that their "seed sowing" will come back ten fold. 

Even if it is not your reason for giving. True givers I know always end up richer not poorer. 

 

And to be clear, I am not saying you should give to me. Give as you are led with love. Give as a lifestyle and you'll see what I am talking about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2 Corinthians 6:10

as sorrowful yet always rejoicing, as poor yet making many rich, as having nothing yet possessing all things.(NASB)

 

Matthew Poole: As poor, yet making many rich; in outward appearance poor, having no abundance of the good things of this life; yet making many rich in knowledge and grace, God by us dispensing to them the riches of his grace.

As having nothing, and yet possessing all things as having nothing, no houses, no lands, no silver or gold, Acts 3:6; yet being as well satisfied and contented, as if all things were ours; as well satisfied with that little which we have, as the men of the world are with their abundance; possessing all things in Christ, though having little in the creature.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/mpc/2-corinthians-6.html

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Staff

1 Timothy 6

 

False Teachers and True Contentment

Teach and urge these things. 3 If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound2 words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, 4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, 5 and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain. 6 But godliness with contentment is great gain, 7 for we brought nothing into the world, and 3 we cannot take anything out of the world. 8 But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content. 9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.

  • Like 1
  • Yay 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moderator
9 hours ago, Emekrus said:

Even if it is not your reason for giving. True givers I know always end up richer not poorer. 

 

And to be clear, I am not saying you should give to me. Give as you are led with love. Give as a lifestyle and you'll see what I am talking about.

Let's look at a example from Scripture.

2Corinthians 12:15 So I will very gladly spend for you everything I have and expend myself as well.

 

Paul was a cheerful giver, but....

 

1Timothy 6:6-10 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

For we brought nothing into the world, and can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and can clothing, we will be content with that. People who who want to get rich fall into temptation and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction.

 

1Corinthians 4:10-12 To this very hour we go hungry and and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless.

We work hard with hands.

 

Why do you assume that I don't give already? 

  • Like 1
  • Best Answer 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Innerfire89 said:

Let's look at a example from Scripture.

2Corinthians 12:15 So I will very gladly spend for you everything I have and expend myself as well.

 

Paul was a cheerful giver, but....

 

1Timothy 6:6-10 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

For we brought nothing into the world, and can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and can clothing, we will be content with that. People who who want to get rich fall into temptation and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction.

 

1Corinthians 4:10-12 To this very hour we go hungry and and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless.

We work hard with hands.

 

Why do you assume that I don't give already? 

Yes I agree with you. Paul was a cheerful giver, yet he was also a cheerful receiver. Let's here from him below:

 

Philippians 4:18 

18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having RECEIVED of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.

 

No, I am not saying you don't already give. I am actually saying that givers don't get poor rather they get richer.

  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Staff

In the words of Lord Jesus .

Mat 19:24  And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 

Mat 16:26  For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 

Be careful 
Mat_6:21  For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. 

 

from Romans 

 

Rom 14:17  For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 
 

  • Like 1
  • Yay 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Romans 15:26

For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem. (NASB)

 

     1. The Expositor's Greek Testament: it is clear that not all the saints in Jerusalem were poor. But Galatians 2:10, Acts 6 show that the community at least included many poor, towards whom it assumed a responsibility so burdensome that it was unable to discharge it unaided.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/egt/romans-15.html

     2. A. T. Robertson: Not all there were poor, but Acts 4:32-5:11; Acts 6:1-6; Acts 11:29.; Galatians 2:10 prove that many were.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/rwp/romans-15.html

 

 

  • Best Answer 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Becky said:

In the words of Lord Jesus .

Mat 19:24  And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 

Mat 16:26  For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 

Be careful 
Mat_6:21  For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. 

 

from Romans 

 

Rom 14:17  For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 
 

Dear,

You just quoted scriptures without any exegesis.Bring out your point let's discuss.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Faber said:

Romans 15:26

For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem. (NASB)

 

     1. The Expositor's Greek Testament: it is clear that not all the saints in Jerusalem were poor. But Galatians 2:10, Acts 6 show that the community at least included many poor, towards whom it assumed a responsibility so burdensome that it was unable to discharge it unaided.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/egt/romans-15.html

     2. A. T. Robertson: Not all there were poor, but Acts 4:32-5:11Acts 6:1-6Acts 11:29.; Galatians 2:10 prove that many were.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/rwp/romans-15.html

 

 

Brother,

 

You are quoting peoples thoughts. I'll prefer to discuss with your own thoughts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There were so many poor Christians that it was necessary for relief to be sent unto them. If the prosperity gospel was/is true these financially poor Christians should have been told to keep giving to get out of their poverty.

 

Hebrews 11:34

For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. (NASB)

 Having property is a monetary value (cf: Acts 2:45; 4:37; 5:1), but having faith in God may mean the loss of property as Hebrews 11:34 makes clear. And a loss of property means a loss of money. Thus one can be financially poorer because of their faith in God - which is "a better possession and a lasting one."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Staff
2 hours ago, Emekrus said:

Dear,

You just quoted scriptures without any exegesis.Bring out your point let's discuss.

My point? My point is not what matters what matters is His point. I believe His point is clear. 

  • Yay 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Becky said:

My point? My point is not what matters what matters is His point. I believe His point is clear. 

Well,

His point is definitely clear to me as well.

  • ouch 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moderator
9 hours ago, Emekrus said:

Yes I agree with you. Paul was a cheerful giver, yet he was also a cheerful receiver. Let's here from him below:

 

Philippians 4:18 

18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having RECEIVED of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.

 

No, I am not saying you don't already give. I am actually saying that givers don't get poor rather they get richer.

The church in Philippi helped Paul with his needs, not riches, he had all his needs met.

 

Philippians 4:10-12 But I rejoyed in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again;  wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity.

Not that I speak in respect to want: for I have learned, in whatever state I am, therewith to be content.

I know both how to be abased, and I know how to unbound: every where and in all things things I am instructed both to abound and to suffer need.  

 

Prosperity is not the definite outcome of giving. God certainly supplies our needs, but worldly things are not a reward for giving.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Staff

Maybe the prosperity preachers of today will use their jets to fly to heaven . :RpS_lol:

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Faber said:

There were so many poor Christians that it was necessary for relief to be sent unto them. If the prosperity gospel was/is true these financially poor Christians should have been told to keep giving to get out of their poverty.

 

Hebrews 11:34

For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. (NASB)

 Having property is a monetary value (cf: Acts 2:45; 4:37; 5:1), but having faith in God may mean the loss of property as Hebrews 11:34 makes clear. And a loss of property means a loss of money. Thus one can be financially poorer because of their faith in God - which is "a better possession and a lasting one."

So are you suggesting there were no rich Christians there?

 

Well, even today we also have so many poor Christians. And I must honestly tell you from experience many poor believers do have a hand in their predicaments. Including their poverty, sickness and others.

 

The scripture you quoted says they lost their property, it didn't say they gave out money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...