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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
Innerfire89

Salvation without The Trinity? How?

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4 hours ago, Becky said:

Jesus Christ is righteous .  We humans on our own are not righteous.  

It is true that our righteousness comes from Jesus Christ ... but WHAT IS “righteousness”?

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The word righteous has different meanings . We are talking about Godly righteousness, My thoughts would be total complete right standing before God. 

 

The right actions of humans are as filthy rags so to speak .

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Peter Toon: 

God the Father is righteous (just); Jesus Christ his Son is the Righteous (Just) One; the Father through the Son and in the Spirit gives the gift of righteousness (justice) to repentant sinners for salvation; such believing sinners are declared righteous (just) by the Father through the Son, are made righteous (just) by the Holy Spirit working in them, and will be wholly righteous (just) in the age to come. They are and will be righteous because they are in a covenant relation with the living God, who is the God of all grace and mercy and who will bring to completion what he has begun in them by declaring them righteous for Christ's sake. (Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of the Bible, Righteousness)

https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/bed/r/righteousness.html

 

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1 hour ago, Becky said:

The word righteous has different meanings . We are talking about Godly righteousness, My thoughts would be total complete right standing before God. 

 

The right actions of humans are as filthy rags so to speak .

I can agree with that definition.  Now for a different question.

Is ANY being other than God that is righteous, or is God the ONLY righteous being?

(It is granted that people are not righteous.)

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1 hour ago, Faber said:

Peter Toon: 

God the Father is righteous (just); Jesus Christ his Son is the Righteous (Just) One; the Father through the Son and in the Spirit gives the gift of righteousness (justice) to repentant sinners for salvation; such believing sinners are declared righteous (just) by the Father through the Son, are made righteous (just) by the Holy Spirit working in them, and will be wholly righteous (just) in the age to come. They are and will be righteous because they are in a covenant relation with the living God, who is the God of all grace and mercy and who will bring to completion what he has begun in them by declaring them righteous for Christ's sake. (Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of the Bible, Righteousness)

https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/bed/r/righteousness.html

 

If God had created a new Adam (an unfallen 100% man) as the “anointed” (Messiah), how would any of the above statements be different?

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8 minutes ago, atpollard said:

Is ANY being other than God that is righteous, or is God the ONLY righteous being?

(It is granted that people are not righteous.)

 

 God is the only righteous being.

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12 minutes ago, atpollard said:

If God had created a new Adam (an unfallen 100% man) as the “anointed” (Messiah), how would any of the above statements be different?

 As an unfallen 100% man (and not God), He would not be able to forgive us our sins when we ask Him to do so, for this God alone is able to do (Psalm 51:4). There was more written that is found in the link, but I didn't want to have a very long post.

 Furthermore, the Son can give "the gift of righteousness to repentant sinners for salvation" because since He is God He fully knows their hearts (Isaiah 11:3-4), and this knowledge always applies unto God alone (1 Kings 8:39).

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10 minutes ago, Faber said:

 

 God is the only righteous being.

What about Michael the Archangel ... righteous or unrighteousness?

What about the creatures with four faces that guard the throne in Revelation ... righteous?

The 2/3 of the angels that refused to follow Lucifer ... righteous?

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1 hour ago, Faber said:

God the Father is righteous (just); Jesus Christ his Son is the Righteous (Just) One; the Father through the Son and in the Spirit gives the gift of righteousness (justice) to repentant sinners for salvation; such believing sinners are declared righteous (just) by the Father through the Son, are made righteous (just) by the Holy Spirit working in them, and will be wholly righteous (just) in the age to come. They are and will be righteous because they are in a covenant relation with the living God, who is the God of all grace and mercy and who will bring to completion what he has begun in them by declaring them righteous for Christ's sake. (Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of the Bible, Righteousness)

 

16 minutes ago, Faber said:

 As an unfallen 100% man (and not God), He would not be able to forgive us our sins when we ask Him to do so, for this God alone is able to do (Psalm 51:4). There was more written that is found in the link, but I didn't want to have a very long post.

 Furthermore, the Son can give "the gift of righteousness to repentant sinners for salvation" because since He is God He fully knows their hearts (Isaiah 11:3-4), and this knowledge always applies unto God alone (1 Kings 8:39).

 

Your definition states that the FATHER forgives.  So the Father could still forgive.

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28 minutes ago, atpollard said:

If God had created a new Adam (an unfallen 100% man) as the “anointed” (Messiah), how would any of the above statements be different?

 

23 minutes ago, Faber said:

 

 God is the only righteous being.

I now see very clear what you are getting at. Something i will hove no part off. You are saying Jesus is not who He says.  I am very sadden to read this. 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Becky said:

 

I now see very clear what you are getting at. Something i will have no part off. You are saying Jesus is not who He says.  I am very sadden to read this. 

Don’t be too sad, just read the OP to see what they wanted SOMEONE to argue.

 

I am a trinitarian, but I was willing to challenge them to actually PROVE what they claim rather than jump on the bandwagon that there is no possible argument for a non-trinitarian salvation.

Edited by atpollard
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51 minutes ago, atpollard said:

What about Michael the Archangel ... righteous or unrighteousness?

What about the creatures with four faces that guard the throne in Revelation ... righteous?

The 2/3 of the angels that refused to follow Lucifer ... righteous?

 As I wrote earlier about the word "holy"....God is the only one who is absolutely holy. Others derive their holiness from Him, but theirs is not intrinsic holiness.

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56 minutes ago, atpollard said:

Your definition states that the FATHER forgives.  So the Father could still forgive.

 

 The Son forgives as well. He wouldn't be able to do so if He were not God. If I sin against my best friend I can (and should) ask him to forgive me, but ultimately my sin is against God (Psalm 51:4) - the same holds for Christ (1 Corinthians 8:12) because He is God. I can ask forgiveness of the Lord Jesus and He will hear me (prayer) for He is God. If only a man He will not have the ability to fully ready my heart (as well as all others) cf. 1 Kings 8:39. So in being the proper recipient of prayer (which the Bible teaches) demonstrates He can not simply be a perfect Man. He is that, but He also must be God.

 To pray to any other but God is a hideous sin. Would you agree?

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Faber said:

 As I wrote earlier about the word "holy"....God is the only one who is absolutely holy. Others derive their holiness from Him, but theirs is not intrinsic holiness.

Is there a difference between “righteous” and “holy” or are they identical?

If they are not the same, then this is an example of “moving the goal posts”.

 

Even if angels have no intrinsic Holiness, are they Righteous?

(What is Righteous?)

Edited by atpollard

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2 minutes ago, atpollard said:

Is there a difference between “righteous” and “holy” or are they identical?

 It depends on how the word is used in context.

 

 The word "ask". It can be used for prayer to God, but it is also used for communicating with people, but that doesn't necessarily mean people are being prayed to.

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20 hours ago, Faber said:

Peter Toon: 

God the Father is righteous (just); Jesus Christ his Son is the Righteous (Just) One; the Father through the Son and in the Spirit gives the gift of righteousness (justice) to repentant sinners for salvation; such believing sinners are declared righteous (just) by the Father through the Son, are made righteous (just) by the Holy Spirit working in them, and will be wholly righteous (just) in the age to come. They are and will be righteous because they are in a covenant relation with the living God, who is the God of all grace and mercy and who will bring to completion what he has begun in them by declaring them righteous for Christ's sake. (Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of the Bible, Righteousness)

https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/bed/r/righteousness.html

 

 

18 hours ago, Faber said:

Would you agree?

I would agree, but I am a trinitarian.  This topic was asking how salvation is possible for a non-trinitarian Christ?  There is nothing in the definition you presented that REQUIRES Jesus to be more than a sinless ‘Messiah’.  God the Father is responsible for declaring people righteous.

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On 3/24/2019 at 2:25 AM, atpollard said:

If God had made a fully human “new Adam” Messiah, would he have been a righteous man able to die for the sins of others?

 

Why not?

 The answer is "no" because His death relates to His role as Mediator.

 

 

     1. W. E. Vine: one who mediates between two parties with a view to producing peace, as in 1 Tim. 2:5, though more than mere mediatorship is in view, for the salvation of men necessitated that the Mediator should Himself possess the nature and attributes of Him towards whom He acts, and should likewise participate in the nature of those for whom He acts (sin apart); only by being possessed both of Deity and humanity could He comprehend the claims of the one and the needs of the other; further, the claims and the needs could be met only by One who, Himself being proved sinless, would offer Himself an expiatory sacrifice on behalf of men (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Mediator, pages 726-727).

     2. Hasting's Dictionary of the New Testament: Obviously Christ is not such a mediator as Moses. He does not come between two contracting parties, for He Himself is the representative human receiver of God’s promise, and the Divine Son through whom we receive that promise. He includes both parties in His own Person, instead of coming between them. He is not the instrument of a contract, but the embodiment of a Divine gift. This passage implies that Christ united God and man, two parties previously at variance, in a wholly unique manner. And the same truth is asserted in the verse which calls Him ‘the one mediator between God and men’ (1 Timothy 2:5). (Mediator, see the first paragraph).

https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/hdn/m/mediator.html

      3. J. L. Williams: For Christ to be a bridge between man and God, He must, like a physical bridge, be firmly established on both shores. Otherwise the chasm that separated man from God would not be bridged. We would have no mediator. And we would still be lost in our sins. (Encyclopedia of Cults and New Religions, John Ankerberg and John Weldon, page 602, footnote #2, citing 'Victor Paul Wierwille and The Way International' by J. L. Williams, page 59).


 

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19 hours ago, atpollard said:

I am a trinitarian, but I was willing to challenge them to actually PROVE what they claim rather than jump on the bandwagon that there is no possible argument for a non-trinitarian salvation.

 

 To call upon the name of the Lord in reference to the Lord Jesus means that He is YHWH. A non-Trinitarian denies that Jesus is YHWH. Therefore a non-Trinitarian is not saved.

 Romans 10:13 (cf. Joel 2:32)

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1 hour ago, Faber said:

 The answer is "no" because His death relates to His role as Mediator.

 

 

     1. W. E. Vine: one who mediates between two parties with a view to producing peace, as in 1 Tim. 2:5, though more than mere mediatorship is in view, for the salvation of men necessitated that the Mediator should Himself possess the nature and attributes of Him towards whom He acts, and should likewise participate in the nature of those for whom He acts (sin apart); only by being possessed both of Deity and humanity could He comprehend the claims of the one and the needs of the other; further, the claims and the needs could be met only by One who, Himself being proved sinless, would offer Himself an expiatory sacrifice on behalf of men (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Mediator, pages 726-727).

     2. Hasting's Dictionary of the New Testament: Obviously Christ is not such a mediator as Moses. He does not come between two contracting parties, for He Himself is the representative human receiver of God’s promise, and the Divine Son through whom we receive that promise. He includes both parties in His own Person, instead of coming between them. He is not the instrument of a contract, but the embodiment of a Divine gift. This passage implies that Christ united God and man, two parties previously at variance, in a wholly unique manner. And the same truth is asserted in the verse which calls Him ‘the one mediator between God and men’ (1 Timothy 2:5). (Mediator, see the first paragraph).

https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/hdn/m/mediator.html

      3. J. L. Williams: For Christ to be a bridge between man and God, He must, like a physical bridge, be firmly established on both shores. Otherwise the chasm that separated man from God would not be bridged. We would have no mediator. And we would still be lost in our sins. (Encyclopedia of Cults and New Religions, John Ankerberg and John Weldon, page 602, footnote #2, citing 'Victor Paul Wierwille and The Way International' by J. L. Williams, page 59).

 

 Again, (and this was not addressed), this goes back to the fact that one can pray to Christ for forgiveness and He will hear them. Only as God can He do this. This is why I asked you if praying to any other but God is a hideous sin. I'll ask again, is it?
 

Sorry, I don’t see how this post answered my question, so I will ask it again:

If God made a new Adam (call him Adam2), would Adam2 be righteous (at least until he chose to sin)?

 

 

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 It answers your question in that Christ had to be God and not a mere man to die for the sins of His people.

 

 In answer to your present question: He wold not be absolutely righteous. Only God is.

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On 3/23/2019 at 6:54 PM, atpollard said:

It is true that our righteousness comes from Jesus Christ ... but WHAT IS “righteousness”?

Righteousness is just that, perfection and Perfection, in human form is found in Yashuah ha'Mashiah alone.  Righteousness is the dog we chase but never catch.  Righteousness is only ours at the next Resurrection and then I understand not if there is or is not Salvation during the following thousand years but, as my studies have taught me, the Final Resurrection, the Resurrection, the Resurrection of the Dead in The Christ, all that sought after the treasures of this world have no chance at finding righteousness but will, all, endure the Eternal Death, the death none here comprehend.

 

Righteousness is a gift from YHWH.

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On 3/17/2019 at 5:08 AM, William. Lloyd said:

@Innerfire89 I always thought that Jesus was the son of God, he came from, from, from the bosom  of God.

Are you saying there are two Gods.

Jesus came to set an example that we might follow. As regarding His sacrifice, the message is that the wants you too to nail also your worthless flesh that most people live to, to your own cross. Die of self and live,

If you die of self, no one can hurt you anymore because you are dead, you can't hurt a dead person and a dead person to self can't sin either.

Your flesh is going to die one day so why live to it, live in the spirit of Jesus Christ and rise again from your selfish and worldly being.

From this place you too can say forgive them for they know not what they do, even your enemies.

Remember Jesus came to set an example for you to follow, so get dying.

With Love Wnl

The Bible, having been inspired by God, is entirely trustworthy and without error. Therefore, we are to believe and obey its teachings. The Bible is the only source of special revelation for the church today.

The one true God is personal, yet beyond our comprehension. He is an invisible spirit, completely self-sufficient and unbounded by space or time, perfectly holy and just, and loving and merciful. In the unity of the Godhead there are three “persons”: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

God created the heavens and the earth, and all they contain. He upholds and governs them in accordance with his eternal will. God is sovereign (in complete control) yet this does not diminish human responsibility.

Because of the sin of the first man, Adam, all mankind is corrupt by nature, dead in sin, and subject to the wrath of God. But God determined, by a covenant of grace, that sinners may receive forgiveness and eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ. Faith in Christ has always been the only way of salvation, in both Old Testament and New Testament times.

The Son of God took upon himself a human nature in the womb of the virgin Mary, so that in her son Jesus the divine and human natures were united in one person. Jesus Christ lived a sinless life and died on a cross, bearing the sins of, and receiving God’s wrath for, all those who trust in him for salvation (his chosen ones). He rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, where he sits as Lord and rules over his kingdom (the church). He will return to judge the living and the dead, bringing his people (with glorious, resurrected bodies) into eternal life, and consigning the wicked to eternal punishment.

Those whom God has predestined unto life are effectually drawn to Christ by the inner working of the Spirit as they hear the gospel. When they believe in Christ, God declares them righteous (justifies them), pardoning their sins and accepting them as righteous, not because of any righteousness of their own, but by imputing Christ’s merits to them. They are adopted as the children of God and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, who sanctifies them, enabling them increasingly to stop sinning and act righteously. They repent of their sins (both at their conversion and thereafter), produce good works as the fruit of their faith, and persevere to the end in communion with Christ, with assurance of their salvation.

Believers strive to keep God’s moral law, which is summarized in the Ten Commandments, not to earn salvation, but because they love their Savior and want to obey him. God is the Lord of the conscience, so that men are not required to believe or do anything contrary to, or in addition to, the Word of God in matters of faith or worship.

Christ has established his church, and particular churches, to gather and perfect his people, by means of the ministry of the Word, the sacraments of baptism (which is to be administered to the children of believers, as well as believers) and the Lord’s Supper (in which the body and blood of Christ are spiritually present to the faith of believers), and the disciplining of members found delinquent in doctrine or life. Christians assemble on the Lord’s Day to worship God by praying, hearing the Word of God read and preached, singing psalms and hymns, and receiving the sacraments.

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2 hours ago, Becky said:

The Bible, having been inspired by God, is entirely trustworthy and without error. Therefore, we are to believe and obey its teachings. The Bible is the only source of special revelation for the church today.

The one true God is personal, yet beyond our comprehension. He is an invisible spirit, completely self-sufficient and unbounded by space or time, perfectly holy and just, and loving and merciful. In the unity of the Godhead there are three “persons”: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

God created the heavens and the earth, and all they contain. He upholds and governs them in accordance with his eternal will. God is sovereign (in complete control) yet this does not diminish human responsibility.

Because of the sin of the first man, Adam, all mankind is corrupt by nature, dead in sin, and subject to the wrath of God. But God determined, by a covenant of grace, that sinners may receive forgiveness and eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ. Faith in Christ has always been the only way of salvation, in both Old Testament and New Testament times.

The Son of God took upon himself a human nature in the womb of the virgin Mary, so that in her son Jesus the divine and human natures were united in one person. Jesus Christ lived a sinless life and died on a cross, bearing the sins of, and receiving God’s wrath for, all those who trust in him for salvation (his chosen ones). He rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, where he sits as Lord and rules over his kingdom (the church). He will return to judge the living and the dead, bringing his people (with glorious, resurrected bodies) into eternal life, and consigning the wicked to eternal punishment.

Those whom God has predestined unto life are effectually drawn to Christ by the inner working of the Spirit as they hear the gospel. When they believe in Christ, God declares them righteous (justifies them), pardoning their sins and accepting them as righteous, not because of any righteousness of their own, but by imputing Christ’s merits to them. They are adopted as the children of God and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, who sanctifies them, enabling them increasingly to stop sinning and act righteously. They repent of their sins (both at their conversion and thereafter), produce good works as the fruit of their faith, and persevere to the end in communion with Christ, with assurance of their salvation.

Believers strive to keep God’s moral law, which is summarized in the Ten Commandments, not to earn salvation, but because they love their Savior and want to obey him. God is the Lord of the conscience, so that men are not required to believe or do anything contrary to, or in addition to, the Word of God in matters of faith or worship.

Christ has established his church, and particular churches, to gather and perfect his people, by means of the ministry of the Word, the sacraments of baptism (which is to be administered to the children of believers, as well as believers) and the Lord’s Supper (in which the body and blood of Christ are spiritually present to the faith of believers), and the disciplining of members found delinquent in doctrine or life. Christians assemble on the Lord’s Day to worship God by praying, hearing the Word of God read and preached, singing psalms and hymns, and receiving the sacraments.

Amen,

With Love, Wnl

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