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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
Innerfire89

Salvation without The Trinity? How?

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For any non Trinitarians that might come across this I have a couple questions that I was curious to see how you would anwser.

 

If Jesus is not God, how can his sacrifice attome for the sins of all the elect? That would be one sinless life of a mere mortal, which can only purchase the redemption of one other life.

 

If Jesus is not God, why did Jesus not have to spend eternity in Hell to pay for our sins? 

 

Hope to hear some good answers soon.

 

Stay blessed.

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The following link is from an anti-Trinitarian site:

https://www.truthortradition.com/articles/how-can-a-man-atone-for-the-sins-of-mankind

 

 

 As I see it whenever a person sins against another person each sin is only against God in the sense that He is the absolute standard of holiness that has been transgressed (Psalm 51:4). David indeed sinned against Uriah by murdering him, Bathsheba by committing adultery with her, and David sinned against himself as well (cf. 1 Corinthians 6:18).

 God knows that I have personally sinned against people in my life that I will probably never see again.

 -> I can ask God to forgive me for engaging in such awful things because He is the absolute standard of holiness. I wouldn't ask forgiveness from John for sinning against Sam because John is a created being, but I could ask God to forgive me for sinning against Sam.[*1]

 

 Since Paul affirms that when sinning against one another we are in fact sinning against Christ (1 Corinthians 8:12) is another example for me that Christ is the absolute standard of holiness = God.[*2] 

->  I can ask Christ to forgive me for engaging in such awful things because He is the absolute standard of holiness. I wouldn't ask forgiveness from John for sinning against Sam because John is a created being, but I could ask Christ to forgive me for sinning against Sam.

 

 

 

[*1] If it is possible I ought to ask both God and Sam for forgiveness.

 

[*2] https://www.christforums.org/topic/8986-the-absolute-holiness-of-the-lord-jesus-in-equality-with-the-father/

 

 

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8 hours ago, Faber said:

The following link is from an anti-Trinitarian site:

https://www.truthortradition.com/articles/how-can-a-man-atone-for-the-sins-of-mankind

 

 

 As I see it whenever a person sins against another person each sin is only against God in the sense that He is the absolute standard of holiness that has been transgressed (Psalm 51:4). David indeed sinned against Uriah by murdering him, Bathsheba by committing adultery with her, and David sinned against himself as well (cf. 1 Corinthians 6:18).

 God knows that I have personally sinned against people in my life that I will probably never see again.

 -> I can ask God to forgive me for engaging in such awful things because He is the absolute standard of holiness. I wouldn't ask forgiveness from John for sinning against Sam because John is a created being, but I could ask God to forgive me for sinning against Sam.[*1]

 

 Since Paul affirms that when sinning against one another we are in fact sinning against Christ (1 Corinthians 8:12) is another example for me that Christ is the absolute standard of holiness = God.[*2] 

->  I can ask Christ to forgive me for engaging in such awful things because He is the absolute standard of holiness. I wouldn't ask forgiveness from John for sinning against Sam because John is a created being, but I could ask Christ to forgive me for sinning against Sam.

 

 

 

[*1] If it is possible I ought to ask both God and Sam for forgiveness.

 

[*2] https://www.christforums.org/topic/8986-the-absolute-holiness-of-the-lord-jesus-in-equality-with-the-father/

 

 

Lol, they jumped all around the question of how Christ death provides attonment for all the elect.  

 

 

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On 9/10/2018 at 1:28 AM, Innerfire89 said:

If Jesus is not God, how can his sacrifice attome for the sins of all the elect?

 Hi Innerfire89,

 

 I found this from Wayne Grudem:

 

e. The importance of the Doctrine of the Trinity. Why was the church so concerned about the doctrine of the Trinity? Is it really essential to hold to the full deity of the Son and the Holy Spirit? Yes it is, for this teaching has implications for the very heart of the Christian faith. First, the atonement is at stake. If Jesus is merely a created being, and not fully God, then it is hard to see how he, a creature, could bear the full wrath of God against all of our sins. Could any creature, no matter how great, really save us? Second, justification by faith alone is threatened if we deny the full deity of the Son. (This is seen today in the teaching of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who do not believe in justification by faith alone.) If Jesus is not fully God, we would rightly doubt whether we can really trust him to save us completely. Could we really depend on any creature fully for our salvation? Third, if Jesus is not infinite God, should we pray to him or worship him? Who but an infinite, omniscient God could hear and respond to all the prayers of all God’s people? And who but God himself is worthy of worship? Indeed, if Jesus is merely a creature, no matter how great, it would be idolatry to worship him—yet the New Testament commands us to do so (Phil. 2:9-11; Rev. 5:12-14).

https://www.biblicaltraining.org/library/trinity-wayne-grudem

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, brakelite said:

Why is it so essential to accept the "trinity' in order to believe in the full divinity of Christ?

The doctrines of the Trinity aren't so essential in our initial understanding in comparison to the essential truths rejected once we understand.

 

When we are new converts the Trinity is really a difficult mystery which is revealed by God in Scripture and in our personal relationship with God.

 

We aren't so much penalized for our initial ignorance as we are penalized for our rejections.

 

In other words, a lot of people come to God and then deepen in understanding of the interpersonal relationship in God.

 

God bless,

William

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@Innerfire89 I always thought that Jesus was the son of God, he came from, from, from the bosom  of God.

Are you saying there are two Gods.

Jesus came to set an example that we might follow. As regarding His sacrifice, the message is that the wants you too to nail also your worthless flesh that most people live to, to your own cross. Die of self and live,

If you die of self, no one can hurt you anymore because you are dead, you can't hurt a dead person and a dead person to self can't sin either.

Your flesh is going to die one day so why live to it, live in the spirit of Jesus Christ and rise again from your selfish and worldly being.

From this place you too can say forgive them for they know not what they do, even your enemies.

Remember Jesus came to set an example for you to follow, so get dying.

With Love Wnl

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7 hours ago, William. Lloyd said:

I always thought that Jesus was the son of God, he came from, from, from the bosom  of God.

 

The Son of God

Since the Lord Jesus is the unique Son of God this means He is God the Son for the Son of God is worshiped (Matthew 14:33; John 20:28 cf. v. 31; Acts 9:20 cf. v. 21; Romans 1:3-4 cf. v. 1; 1 John 5:13 cf. vv. 14-16; "Son of the Father" in 2 John 1:3) and is omniscient (John 1:47-49; Revelation 2:18 cf. v. 23). This proves the Son of God is God (John 20:31 cf. v. 28; 1 John 5:20). 

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51 minutes ago, Faber said:

 

The Son of God

Since the Lord Jesus is the unique Son of God this means He is God the Son for the Son of God is worshiped (Matthew 14:33John 20:28 cf. v. 31Acts 9:20 cf. v. 21Romans 1:3-4 cf. v. 11 John 5:13 cf. vv. 14-16; "Son of the Father" in 2 John 1:3) and is omniscient (John 1:47-49Revelation 2:18 cf. v. 23). This proves the Son of God is God (John 20:31 cf. v. 281 John 5:20). 

Hi Fabre, I believe in the doctrine of the forums staff written by Becky.

With Love,Wnl

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7 hours ago, William. Lloyd said:

I always thought that Jesus was the son of God, he came from, from, from the bosom  of God.

Some people become tripped up on our modern understanding of what begotten or proceeding from the Father may mean. Just suggesting that it is helpful to post your references. 

 

God bless,

William 

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15 hours ago, William. Lloyd said:

@Innerfire89 I always thought that Jesus was the son of God, he came from, from, from the bosom  of God.

Are you saying there are two Gods.

Jesus came to set an example that we might follow. As regarding His sacrifice, the message is that the wants you too to nail also your worthless flesh that most people live to, to your own cross. Die of self and live,

If you die of self, no one can hurt you anymore because you are dead, you can't hurt a dead person and a dead person to self can't sin either.

Your flesh is going to die one day so why live to it, live in the spirit of Jesus Christ and rise again from your selfish and worldly being.

From this place you too can say forgive them for they know not what they do, even your enemies.

Remember Jesus came to set an example for you to follow, so get dying.

With Love Wnl

No, I believe God is in three descintct persons who are equally God.

 

What you're saying sounds like Christ consciousness, is this the case?

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3 hours ago, Innerfire89 said:

No, I believe God is in three descintct persons who are equally God.

 

What you're saying sounds like Christ consciousness, is this the case?

Hi I was simply drawn in to answer your question ( wish I hadn't) because no one did, you probably new the answer already.

l simply won't waste my time discussing the status and names of the trinity. All I know is that Jesus died for me and loves me, setting me free from myself and causing me to serve and love others instead of my selfish self. I simply want to follow His example, He will always be Jesus to me, my saviour.

With Love, Wnl

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2 hours ago, William. Lloyd said:

l simply won't waste my time discussing the status and names of the trinity.

Hello William,

 

 Do you believe that the Bible teaches the Trinity?

 

 Thanks

 Faber

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Faber said:

Hello William,

 

 Do you believe that the Bible teaches the Trinity?

 

 Thanks

 Faber

 

 

Do you believe that the Bible teachers theTrinity and if so,where ?I would love to know,

With Love, Wnl

 

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Yes, the Bible teaches the Trinity.

Matthew 28:19

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. (NASB)

 Being water baptized into this most holy 3 Person "name" not only demonstrates their "unity of being" but also that they are equal recipients of worship - and only God is the proper recipient of worship. 


     1. Hans Bietenhard: Mt. 28:19 combines the name of the Father and Son and Holy Ghost. Only through this link with the name of Son and Holy Ghost does the name of the Father acquire its fulness. The common name also expresses the unity of being (TDNT 5:274, onoma). 
     2. Murray Harris: So then, just as in commercial usage payment 'into' someone's name indicated a transfer of money into someone's account, so in baptism there is signified a transference of believers into the permanent possession and safe keeping of the omnipotent Trinity. In baptism God says to the believer, 'You belong to me. You are my adopted son, my adopted daughter, for ever.' And in response the believer says to God, 'I belong to you. I will be your willing slave for ever' (Slave of Christ: A New Testament Metaphor for Total Devotion to Jesus, page 110).
     3. Steven Tsoukalas: This theme of ownership by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit must not go without notice. The Old Testament parallel of Yahweh's ownership of His covenant people is vivid. Yahweh's people are "called by My name" (Isa. 43:7). As such they are His possession and come under His authority (cf. Isa. 43:1, 10a). Simply put, covenant people belong to the Deity. It is precisely this covenantal theme that is expressed in Matthew 28:19, for newly baptized ones are those who have come into covenant relationship with, and fall under the ownership of, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. It therefore is beyond doubt that the Deity, the one "name," is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit (Knowing Christ in the Challenge of Heresy, page 224). 
    4. Benjamin B. Warfield: This is a direct ascription to Yahweh, the God of Israel, of a threefold personality, and is therewith the direct enunciation of the doctrine of the Trinity. We are not witnessing here the birth of the doctrine of the Trinity; that is presupposed. What we are witnessing is the authoritative announcement of the Trinity as the God of Christianity by its Founder, in one of the most solemn of His recorded declarations. Israel had worshipped the one only true God under the Name of Yahweh; Christians are to worship the same one only and true God under the Name of "the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost." This is the distinguishing characteristic of Christians; and that is as much as to say that the doctrine of the Trinity is, according to our Lord's own apprehension of it, the distinctive mark of the religion which He founded. (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Trinity, See #13 "The Baptismal Formula") 
http://www.internationalstandardbible.com/T/trinity-1.html 

 

 

 I'll ask again, do you believe that the Bible teaches the Trinity?

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55 minutes ago, Faber said:

Yes, the Bible teaches the Trinity.

Matthew 28:19

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. (NASB)

 Being water baptized into this most holy 3 Person "name" not only demonstrates their "unity of being" but also that they are equal recipients of worship - and only God is the proper recipient of worship. 


     1. Hans Bietenhard: Mt. 28:19 combines the name of the Father and Son and Holy Ghost. Only through this link with the name of Son and Holy Ghost does the name of the Father acquire its fulness. The common name also expresses the unity of being (TDNT 5:274, onoma). 
     2. Murray Harris: So then, just as in commercial usage payment 'into' someone's name indicated a transfer of money into someone's account, so in baptism there is signified a transference of believers into the permanent possession and safe keeping of the omnipotent Trinity. In baptism God says to the believer, 'You belong to me. You are my adopted son, my adopted daughter, for ever.' And in response the believer says to God, 'I belong to you. I will be your willing slave for ever' (Slave of Christ: A New Testament Metaphor for Total Devotion to Jesus, page 110).
     3. Steven Tsoukalas: This theme of ownership by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit must not go without notice. The Old Testament parallel of Yahweh's ownership of His covenant people is vivid. Yahweh's people are "called by My name" (Isa. 43:7). As such they are His possession and come under His authority (cf. Isa. 43:1, 10a). Simply put, covenant people belong to the Deity. It is precisely this covenantal theme that is expressed in Matthew 28:19, for newly baptized ones are those who have come into covenant relationship with, and fall under the ownership of, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. It therefore is beyond doubt that the Deity, the one "name," is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit (Knowing Christ in the Challenge of Heresy, page 224). 
    4. Benjamin B. Warfield: This is a direct ascription to Yahweh, the God of Israel, of a threefold personality, and is therewith the direct enunciation of the doctrine of the Trinity. We are not witnessing here the birth of the doctrine of the Trinity; that is presupposed. What we are witnessing is the authoritative announcement of the Trinity as the God of Christianity by its Founder, in one of the most solemn of His recorded declarations. Israel had worshipped the one only true God under the Name of Yahweh; Christians are to worship the same one only and true God under the Name of "the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost." This is the distinguishing characteristic of Christians; and that is as much as to say that the doctrine of the Trinity is, according to our Lord's own apprehension of it, the distinctive mark of the religion which He founded. (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Trinity, See #13 "The Baptismal Formula") 
http://www.internationalstandardbible.com/T/trinity-1.html 

 

 

 I'll ask again, do you believe that the Bible teaches the Trinity?

 

56 minutes ago, Faber said:

Yes, the Bible teaches the Trinity.

Matthew 28:19

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. (NASB)

 Being water baptized into this most holy 3 Person "name" not only demonstrates their "unity of being" but also that they are equal recipients of worship - and only God is the proper recipient of worship. 


     1. Hans Bietenhard: Mt. 28:19 combines the name of the Father and Son and Holy Ghost. Only through this link with the name of Son and Holy Ghost does the name of the Father acquire its fulness. The common name also expresses the unity of being (TDNT 5:274, onoma). 
     2. Murray Harris: So then, just as in commercial usage payment 'into' someone's name indicated a transfer of money into someone's account, so in baptism there is signified a transference of believers into the permanent possession and safe keeping of the omnipotent Trinity. In baptism God says to the believer, 'You belong to me. You are my adopted son, my adopted daughter, for ever.' And in response the believer says to God, 'I belong to you. I will be your willing slave for ever' (Slave of Christ: A New Testament Metaphor for Total Devotion to Jesus, page 110).
     3. Steven Tsoukalas: This theme of ownership by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit must not go without notice. The Old Testament parallel of Yahweh's ownership of His covenant people is vivid. Yahweh's people are "called by My name" (Isa. 43:7). As such they are His possession and come under His authority (cf. Isa. 43:1, 10a). Simply put, covenant people belong to the Deity. It is precisely this covenantal theme that is expressed in Matthew 28:19, for newly baptized ones are those who have come into covenant relationship with, and fall under the ownership of, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. It therefore is beyond doubt that the Deity, the one "name," is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit (Knowing Christ in the Challenge of Heresy, page 224). 
    4. Benjamin B. Warfield: This is a direct ascription to Yahweh, the God of Israel, of a threefold personality, and is therewith the direct enunciation of the doctrine of the Trinity. We are not witnessing here the birth of the doctrine of the Trinity; that is presupposed. What we are witnessing is the authoritative announcement of the Trinity as the God of Christianity by its Founder, in one of the most solemn of His recorded declarations. Israel had worshipped the one only true God under the Name of Yahweh; Christians are to worship the same one only and true God under the Name of "the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost." This is the distinguishing characteristic of Christians; and that is as much as to say that the doctrine of the Trinity is, according to our Lord's own apprehension of it, the distinctive mark of the religion which He founded. (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Trinity, See #13 "The Baptismal Formula") 
http://www.internationalstandardbible.com/T/trinity-1.html 

 

 

 I'll ask again, do you believe that the Bible teaches the Trinity?

Hi Fabre, of coarse I believe in the Father, son and Holy Spirit and Thankyou for your explanation.

With Love, Wnl

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23 minutes ago, William. Lloyd said:

Hi Fabre, of coarse I believe in the Father, son and Holy Spirit and Thankyou for your explanation.

With Love, Wnl

Does not answer the question.  @Faber's question was "do you believe that the Bible teaches the Trinity?"


To say you believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit does not necessarily mean you believe in the trinity, in the deity of Christ, or for that matter the Bible teaches either.

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13 minutes ago, Origen said:

Does not answer the question.  @Faber's question was "do you believe that the Bible teaches the Trinity?"


To say you believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit does not necessarily mean you believe in the trinity, in the deity of Christ, or for that matter the Bible teaches either.

I believe in the deity of Christ, but could you help me with your question,

can you tell me where the word Trinity is in the Bible, l would be much 

obliged if you could, Thankyou,

Wth Love, Wnl

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35 minutes ago, William. Lloyd said:

 

Hi Fabre, of coarse I believe in the Father, son and Holy Spirit and Thankyou for your explanation.

With Love, Wnl

I noticed you did not capitalize son . Typo or intentional. 

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LOL I read you to be very perfected in you delivery, your thoughts. The attack on the Deity of Jesus the Christ has been around for a long time. Most the negative statements or replies are the same over and over. Goes hand in hand with the dodging of direct questions and the spin of using questions for replies/answers. 

Coming here with your standard weapons, of darts against The Christ  gives members the opportunity share the truth of Scripture. 

 

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 
Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God. 
Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 
Joh 1:4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 
 

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4 minutes ago, Becky said:

LOL I read you to be very perfected in you delivery, your thoughts. The attack on the Deity of Jesus the Christ has been around for a long time. Most the negative statements or replies are the same over and over. Goes hand in hand with the dodging of direct questions and the spin of using questions for replies/answers. 

Coming here with your standard weapons, of darts against The Christ  gives members the opportunity share the truth of Scripture. 

 

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 
Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God. 
Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 
Joh 1:4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 
 

I think you missed my post to Origan which reads I believe in the deity of Christ.

With Love, Wnl

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11 minutes ago, William. Lloyd said:

I think you missed my post to Origan which reads I believe in the deity of Christ.

With Love, Wnl

I read that this morning. Before i posted #22 . 

 

Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 
Joh 14:7  If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 
Joh 14:8  Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 
Joh 14:9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 
Joh 14:10  Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 
Joh 14:11  Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 
 

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2 hours ago, William. Lloyd said:

I think you missed my post to Origan which reads I believe in the deity of Christ.

With Love, Wnl

 No one asked you if you believe in the deity of Christ.

 

You still refuse to answer the question put to you.  Do you believe that the Bible teaches the Trinity?  The answer is either yes or no.

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