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josha

Alcohol and Christianity

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I used to drink underage and got sober for 4 years. I had relapsed  sept 2017 a few times and had a few beers, throughout the year and this year. I jus enjoy beer etc. everytime i have a beer though i feel guilty. I am of age, 23 years old I enjoy beer but I dont want to sin. I dont over do it, I have a couple beers and thats about it. I feel am i willfully sinning and would i go to hell i dont get drunk. I just have a few beers. Recently i have stopped drinking again til i figure all this out but yeah i would like some biblical advice from you because I truly trust you and your judgement some people say its good to not drink, others say as long as you dont get drunk your fine i dont want to disobey the lord or go against any conviction, i feel it is 100% smartest to not drink at all obviously anyone would say that, but is it wrong that i like beer and want to drink here and there. it also makes me think and maybe this is me being paranoid, but would God punish me if i drink even if i felt it was wrong. as far as give me a disease or something... some people say god can give judgement for disobedience. I just dont know if its also a mixture of my upbrining that i dont want to drinking alcohol because i was always told its wrong. I do feel maybe it is a conviction but i guess i just dont see why it should be an issue if i do it in a mature manner. My ultimate goal is to please God but IM really really stuck on this Please keep the relapse thing between us I feel a bit ashamed about it

 

hebrews 10:26 comes to mind and whatever is not of faith is sin verse.

 

numerous pastors have said its okay some say dont.., please honest advice

Edited by josha

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Sounds like you lapsed (temporary) and not relapsed (current). Can I ask why you think drinking beer is a sin? Can you not have one or two at the most and not get drunk?

 

Lastly, I suffer what you seemingly suffer from. My conscience at times is attacked by "political correctness" "the devil" or even sometimes my wife (j/king)!

 

906018283_MartinLutherdrinkbeer.jpg.bb4d309f825bb380bc6f0c8edd741f0d.jpg

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Suggesting if you feel guilty dont drink. I see no sin in some folks having a drink that does not compute to every one should have a drink. 

 

1Co 6:12  All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 
 

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My point is your conscience can be harassed by Legalistic peoples. Do you not think the Pharisees did not try to make everyone feel guilty about doing just about anything?

 

Temptations.jpg.549cf019d10a644917d77f01d4ee23af.jpg

 

This isn't a license to drink excessively, but there is such thing as Christian liberty. Martin Luther offers a lot to think about here. Take some time to ponder what his message is.

 

 

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so it sounds as if martin luther dealt with the same thing as myself? william, is that correct? it seems as if he felt convicted aswell for drinking 

 

 

also when people talk about martin luther drinking, are they talking about this guy or black martin luther? im confused

Edited by josha

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i also dont really agree with martin luther there because we are called not to sin, and it sounds he is willfullly sinning in that quote

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13 minutes ago, josha said:

so it sounds as if martin luther dealt with the same thing as myself? william, is that correct? it seems as if he felt convicted aswell for drinking 

Martin Luther spent hours upon hours in confession each day, other priests tired of his long confessions until they told him to come back after he really sinned. Luther understood the true Righteousness of God is not acquired by our works, but by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.

 

What I glean from Luther when I am harassed by legalism is this as I often say to myself, Dang right I am a sinner, Jesus died for sinners and not the righteous, therefore where Jesus is there I shall also be:

 

Quote: "When Satan tells me I am a sinner he comforts me immeasurably, since Christ died for sinners.

- Martin Luther".

 

There's nothing wrong with having a beer or two and enjoying good company. There's nothing wrong with having a glass of wine over dinner or even in communion. However, there's everything wrong thinking you are so insecure in your salvation that a beer or two will rip you from the hands of God.

 

What you are demonstrating, brother, is a weak faith and you're stumbling. Don't get me wrong, I find some relevance even in the liberty of what we eat (meat). If you stumble over this and your conscience is disturbed then I would refrain from drinking around you. But know this, it is only because you're a weaker brother and you're stumbling. As @Beckypointed out all things in moderation. If you're an alcoholic then stay away from all alcohol, but don't let people make you into an alcoholic.

 

Pretty much all I have to share on this subject.

 

God bless,

William

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On 8/13/2018 at 11:42 AM, josha said:

i also dont really agree with martin luther there because we are called not to sin, and it sounds he is willfullly sinning in that quote

You can be controlled by an idol (alcohol) if you drink or don't drink. If it makes you walk on the other side of a street from the bar or even towards a bar you're being controlled by that idol. Either way, doing whichever demonstrates a lack of faith. As you said, what is not of faith is a sin!

 

On 8/13/2018 at 11:36 AM, josha said:

also when people talk about martin luther drinking, are they talking about this guy or black martin luther? im confused

Martin Luther was the father of the Protestant Reformation. Perhaps the most if not one of the most pivotal person(s) in the 2000 years of church history. 

 

Martin Luther King Jr. was named after his own father who adopted the name of the great Reformer which lived long before him.

 

They are not the same person.

 

God bless,

William

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I personally like smoking.  🙂

Let me clarify.  I don't smoke, nor do I advocate anyone else smoking.  However my objection to smoking is 100% health (and wallet) related.  As a result, I am amused when someone sees a musician from a church "worship band" off smoking at some public location and indignantly asks "How can someone like that be on the worship band?"  I have read quite a bit of scripture, but I must have missed the "Thou shall not smoke" verse.  I suspect it is right next to the verse that says "All alcohol is of the Devil." 😉

 

As for my house, my wife grew up with an abusive alcoholic father.  So because of my love for my family, I choose not to drink.  Yet as a Christian who has read the Bible, I feel obligated to point out that "drunkenness" is a sin, but drinking is not.

  • [Gen 14:18 NASB] 18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High.
  • [Gen 27:28 NASB] 28 Now may God give you of the dew of heaven, And of the fatness of the earth, And an abundance of grain and new wine;
  • [Deu 7:13 NASB] 13 "He will love you and bless you and multiply you; He will also bless the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground, your grain and your new wine and your oil, the increase of your herd and the young of your flock, in the land which He swore to your forefathers to give you.
  • [Deu 14:23, 26 NASB] 23 "You shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God, at the place where He chooses to establish His name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and your flock, so that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always. ... 26 "You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.
  • [Psa 104:15 NASB] 15 And wine which makes man's heart glad, So that he may make [his] face glisten with oil, And food which sustains man's heart.
  • [Pro 31:6 NASB] 6 Give strong drink to him who is perishing, And wine to him whose life is bitter.
  • [1Ti 5:23 NASB] 23 No longer drink water [exclusively,] but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.

 

What we are warned of is ...

  • [Rom 14:21 NASB] 21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or [to do anything] by which your brother stumbles.
  • [Eph 5:18 NASB] 18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,
  • [1Ti 3:3, 8 NASB] 3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. ... 8 Deacons likewise [must be] men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,
  • [Tit 1:7 NASB] 7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain,
  • [Tit 2:3 NASB] 3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good,
Edited by atpollard
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About 30 years ago i realized a Christian could also be a smoker. 

Just now, atpollard said:

I have read quite a bit of scripture, but I must have missed the "Thou shall not smoke" verse

I tried that line on Dad about 1963 , His reply "Know ye not ye are the temple of the Holy Ghost ". 

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46 minutes ago, Becky said:

I tried that line on Dad about 1963 , His reply "Know ye not ye are the temple of the Holy Ghost ". 

Then we need LOTS more sermons on the EVIL of obesity and high cholesterol and lack of exercise ...

... either we are commanded to take care of our fleshly Temple, or we are not.

 

[As an aside, alcohol in small regular doses improves health ... so drinking should then be COMMANDED by the same rule that BANS smoking.  🙂 ]

Edited by atpollard
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15 minutes ago, atpollard said:

Then we need LOTS more sermons on the EVIL of obesity and high cholesterol and lack of exercise ...

... either we are commanded to take care of our fleshly Temple, or we are not.

 

[As an aside, alcohol in small regular doses improves health ... so drinking should then be COMMANDED by the same rule that BANS smoking.  🙂 ]

I wish i could remember the preachers name..He  was a BIG name in the 70s.. I see him prancing back and forth across the platform. Shouting ,dancing etc. all against the evils of tobacco and alcohol . I am working to be polite, to stop giggling. The buttons on his vest were about to pop.. I so wanted them to.. 

 

 Pro_23:21  For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags. 

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My dear friends here. I myself will judge no one on this subject of drinking alcohol beverages.

 

The Holy Spirit has laid upon my heart by Scripture, and my conscience that God would have me be an example of living in the Center of His Will, and that excludes drinking alcoholic beverages.

 

My desire is to live as close to My Holy Father, and being a Follower of His Son, Jesus Christ. 

 

I miss the mark on so many levels, and Satan tries to tempt to look and see that the fruit he offers is so beautiful, and would be so wonderful to taste. But like Adam and Eve we all are being tempted to take a bite of Satan's temping morsels, however He who lives in me is greater, and He is able to deliver me! Praise Jesus Christ He is able to Save me completely, I no longer am a slave to this world and its system of evil and wretchedness.I am free to Follow My King Jesus Christ.

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1 hour ago, Just Mike said:

My dear friends here. I myself will judge no one on this subject of drinking alcohol beverages.

 

The Holy Spirit has laid upon my heart by Scripture, and my conscience that God would have me be an example of living in the Center of His Will, and that excludes drinking alcoholic beverages.

 

My desire is to live as close to My Holy Father, and being a Follower of His Son, Jesus Christ. 

 

I miss the mark on so many levels, and Satan tries to tempt to look and see that the fruit he offers is so beautiful, and would be so wonderful to taste. But like Adam and Eve we all are being tempted to take a bite of Satan's temping morsels, however He who lives in me is greater, and He is able to deliver me! Praise Jesus Christ He is able to Save me completely, I no longer am a slave to this world and its system of evil and wretchedness.I am free to Follow My King Jesus Christ.

Not arguing with you, brother. As you know Jesus did serve up some of the best wine in the wedding feast and drank wine with the disciples at the last supper etc. I just think that saying, "My desire is to live as close to My Holy Father, and being a Follower of His Son, Jesus Christ." and then conveying that to live as closely to the example of Jesus Christ while suggesting you are refraining from serving alcohol (communion or dinner etc) or drinking alcohol is a distortion of the examples given in Scripture.

 

Personally, I'd rather lean towards not drinking at all rather than drinking in moderation (personal preference) Why? Because I do not have the strength at times to stop at 1 but give into over indulgence and often drink more than my own share when the opportunity arises. To confess my own conflicts, one of them is dealing with alcohol temptation. One of the worst things that I may do is overly drink in front of a keyboard. The next day the same routine usually unfolds. I wake up and remember what I typed the night before while drinking in front of the keyboard. I then head to the computer in a hurry to execute damage control and delete everything I had writ. That's an indicator that I am not properly handling my drinking. Another problem is that there are two mes. A drunk me and a sober me. The problem is that I say something when the drunk me and people then respond to the sober me. They have the wrong person and they should be addressing the drunk me (joking!). I'm working on not drinking at all, but the reasons are quite different than thinking drinking itself is a sin as atpollard pointed out. I'm drinking now far less than I have in the last seven years. I used to require at least 2 beers every night before bed. I'm now going weeks between drinking. And ultimately I am aiming at not drinking at all. I'm trying to deal with the reasons as to why I am even drinking. Yes, I love the taste but I love the mellow mood and the ability to sleep. I keep thinking at times that alcohol will work as a medicine to alleviate stress. It only provides a temporary solution in evading reality, the stress is still there when I wake up the next day. It's an issue I am having to deal with during or after stressful situations or certain people that I engage with, it is how I am responding to incident or persons that is the issue. There are certain persons in my life that when just mentioning their name makes my heart feel as though it is restricted or being squeezed and I can't breathe. This response isn't normal and I think for the first time me dealing with the reasoning why I even feel this way in response to them is touching upon the root issue.

 

God bless,

William

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The first miracle Jesus did was turning water into wine.  Surely he expected the guests at the wedding to drink that wine. While alcohol use is permitted it isn't commanded and it can be a sin if it causes another believer to stumble.  My background has been among believers who believe all alcohol use is wrong and while I don' agree with this belief I abstain out of respect for their beliefs.

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William,  Southern Baptist do not use alcoholic in the Lords Supper or at any of their dinners...ever. That does not mean that members are restricted in any way to drink anything they want. I have had Jesus making wine and drinking wine brought up so many times in justifying why some drinks alcohol. This is especially true in dealing with a family attempting to confront their dad or husband that he is drinking to excess. In times I remember  the man being confronted was a church goer, worked a full time job, but he no longer was controlling, his drinking was now controlling him.

 

I have not alway been a tea toddler. THere was never an issue with me drinking, as very seldom did I drank at all.  My choice was based on my reading Scripture, and the Holy Spirit directing me to avoid alcohol.  As I see it Romans 14 is the key to how I think drinking should be looked at. Verse 12, is about personal responsibility, 14-19 is caring about others. For me verse 19-21  tells me that I must pursue love and peace with others in the Body. The verse's where Scripture spoke loudest to me was 21-23. These said to me I needed to protect my brother's and sister's and not being a stumbling block for others by what I do or do not do. Not partaking has a less chance to be offensive. I do not share this unless I am asked, I do not want to be thought of as a "goody two shoes". But hopefully I am seen as a caring loving friend.  I can be with men having a beer and not be offencive. I don't think my job is the assistant to the Holy Spirit to point out and call out people's sins.

 

I think you might of gotten a false impression by my post, hope this help

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7 minutes ago, Just Mike said:

William,  Southern Baptist do not use alcoholic in the Lords Supper or at any of their dinners...ever. That does not mean that members are restricted in any way to drink anything they want.

How isn't that contradictory?

 

8 minutes ago, Just Mike said:

I have had Jesus making wine and drinking wine brought up so many times in justifying why some drinks alcohol.

I'm sure I could murder someone and justify it by twisting Scripture from examples such as Cain, Moses, David, and Saul/Paul.

 

9 minutes ago, Just Mike said:

I think you might of gotten a false impression by my post, hope this help

Nope, I do not believe I had the wrong impression. Hope I didn't across inappropriately.

 

Just reiterating an improper condemnation of activities such as drinking alcohol (wine is the biblical example) because their abuse is dangerous is in itself condemned:

  • Colossians 2:20-23  If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.
  • 1 Timothy 4:1-5 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound[a] teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. 5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Though to suggest that refraining from drunkenness is indeed Scriptural, wine served during communion is not only Scriptural too but also the historical practice of the church.

 

On a humorous note, if we refrain from the actual elements which were ordained by Christ during the Last Supper for the weaker brother at whim, then there's bound to be someone stumbling with not only an alcoholic beverage, but also the gluten bread, and mercury in the fish served during the potluck after service. :classic_laugh:

 

God bless,

William

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William;  not drinking alcohol for was  a personal choice about 20 years ago. However for me to drink now would have serious consequences as much of the medication I take warn against it, so I am glad I have no desire for it.  Right now I can't drink any thing with caffeine,  or soda pop,  just water, milk, or kool aid type drinks.  I think I can deal with these limitations, not much choice at this point.

 

I do think most Baptist denominations (and there are exceptions) pretty much stand against alcohol, and so,e have it in their by laws that members will restrain from it. Hard shell Baptists make it a requirement that you will not smoke and drink. I think people will sign it but still do as they please. 

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Just now, Just Mike said:

William;  not drinking alcohol for was  a personal choice about 20 years ago. However for me to drink now would have serious consequences as much of the medication I take warn against it, so I am glad I have no desire for it.  Right now I can't drink any thing with caffeine,  or soda pop,  just water, milk, or kool aid type drinks.  I think I can deal with these limitations, not much choice at this point.

 

I do think most Baptist denominations (and there are exceptions) pretty much stand against alcohol, and so,e have it in their by laws that members will restrain from it. Hard shell Baptists make it a requirement that you will not smoke and drink. I think people will sign it but still do as they please. 

I understand your condition brother. As I wrote my above response I had it mind. Just making the distinction between what is Scriptural and what is personal preference. As far as the Baptist, that's their "tradition".

 

God bless,

William

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1 hour ago, William said:

How isn't that contradictory?

Just a subtle thought, but a Baptist views "membership" and "Salvation" as being virtually identical, so many making a profession and being baptized as believers and welcomed to join the communion will be minors.  Would a "Covenant" church serve the wine to a 7 year old?  For one thing, it would violate Government Laws and it might be viewed by many as irresponsible.  "New Wine" (pre-fermentation) will serve the same function without violating either conscience or civil laws.

 

Now I can't say that no Baptists are not just stubborn and bound up in legalistic traditions, just that there may be other reasons for not using wine.  🙂

Edited by atpollard
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16 minutes ago, atpollard said:

Just a subtle thought, but a Baptist views "membership" and "Salvation" as being virtually identical, so many making a profession and being baptized as believers and welcomed to join the communion will be minors.  Would a "Covenant" church serve the wine to a 7 year old?  For one thing, it would violate Government Laws and it might be viewed by many as irresponsible.  "New Wine" (pre-fermentation) will serve the same function without violating either conscience or civil laws.

 

Now I can't say that no Baptists are not just stubborn and bound up in legalistic traditions, just that there may be other reasons for not using wine.  🙂

Children are incommunicable members and refrain from partaking of the Lord's supper in our church. However, some of them become communicable members and thereafter can access the elements before most states allow them to drink alcohol.

 

Curious, how well do you think state law will stack up against the 1st amendment? Never put much thought into it myself.

 

God bless,

William

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Many great points in this thread.  I think the Bible is clear that alcohol in moderation is fine and sometimes actually recommended.  I will not post those verses since they are already posted above.  However, if drinking alcohol would make a brother or sister stumble it is best not to drink around them.  I think that is clear as well.   

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Before coming to Christ, I got addicted to alcohol when they winged me off opiates after my spinal fusion (back surgery). If you ever get to the place that you need a drink instead of just wanting one, It becomes a problem. I can't say things were all bad, because it drove me to Christ to get help.

 

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1 hour ago, William said:

Children are incommunicable members and refrain from partaking of the Lord's supper in our church. However, some of them become communicable members and thereafter can access the elements before most states allow them to drink alcohol.

 

Curious, how well do you think state law will stack up against the 1st amendment? Never put much thought into it myself.

 

God bless,

William

My money is on the First Amendment trumps State Law.

(Of course with Judicial Activism running rampant, all bets are off in the short term.)

 

Some Native Americans even use narcotics in certain religious ceremonies under First Amendment protections ... "Everyone except the four children has eaten the ground-up tops, or buttons, of peyote, Lophophora williamsii. U.S. law classifies the squat cactus and its primary active ingredient, mescaline, as Schedule 1 substances, illegal to sell, possess, or ingest. The law exempts members of the Native American Church, who revere peyote as a sacred medicine." (Scientific American; July 5, 2017)

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